Is Porsche diluting the GT Brand?
05-06-2019, 07:13 PM
#16
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They're probably going to start making the RS for every model soon after. GT would be what M Sport is to BMW and RS would be what M is. IMO it is this type of dilution that kills off what little bit of special feeling there is left to the Porsche line up. Similar to Mercedes and BMW, Porsche already has multiple variants of the same model to fill every possible niche market there is. Now to sell out the GT line up too is the last straw for me. Obviously I'm not saying I'd make any bit of difference, but as a customer I am certainly looking elsewhere next. Owning an E92M3, the last generation of M cars before sticking the M badge on everything, I can say I'm never going back to the brand. These M sport cars have more M badges than my M3. Ridiculous. I understand the need to make money but when your business direction is to please the masses, it'll inevitably turn away some purists. Next for me would probably have to be Ferrari as they've made it this far without selling themselves out. Have to say it is unfortunate and I'm very disappointed with Porsche. It is simply an unnecessary move.
05-06-2019, 07:21 PM
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. . . .IMO it is this type of dilution that kills off what little bit of special feeling there is left to the Porsche line up. . . .Now to sell out the GT line up too is the last straw for me. . . . Have to say it is unfortunate and I'm very disappointed with Porsche. It is simply an unnecessary move.
05-06-2019, 07:23 PM
#18
Three Wheelin'
The Cayenne was not about saving Porsche (Boxster did that) or providing more capital for development of sports cars. This is what enthusiasts tell themselves to ease the pain of watching a storied sports car manufacturer die a slow death. It was about generating enough capital to expand hedge fund holdings sufficient for Porsche to take over VW. This was engineered by Wendolin Wiediking, Porsche’s wunderkind CEO in the early 2000’s, but blew up in his face when the world economy tanked in 07-08 and Porsche was left holding a big bag of debt. Fast forward to VW now calling the shots. GT, GTS, Carrera are brand names with recognition that motivate sales. Substance optional.
05-06-2019, 07:26 PM
#19
That lieberman post seems very speculative and ambiguous (half truths). Could the motorsport department play a role in a 641 hp TT Cayenne, sure. Will they label it a GT2 Cayenne (or an GT3/GT2 version)? I don't think so. Likely just the Turbos S version. I can see, maybe, a Targa GT3 or Cabriolet GT3 (as long as it performs a lot better at the track vs the competition) before any Cayenne/Panamera GT version... Beyond our control, but I highly doubt Porsche would be that stupid. If so, time to look for other brands or just buy classics...
05-06-2019, 07:58 PM
#20
As long as the GT Division keeps making gorgeous, high-revving 6MT N/A sports cars with pinpoint handling, I can live with it. If not, I'll just stick with what I have and let PAG save me from myself.
05-06-2019, 08:27 PM
#21
Porsche learned from BMW and Merc that horribly ugly SUV/crossover thingies with big motors sell. Just following the money.
05-06-2019, 10:29 PM
#23
Drifting
05-06-2019, 10:44 PM
#24
RL Community Team
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Am I happy for those cars to exist? If it makes Porsche money and lets them invest in things I'm interested in (manual GT3, Spyder, normally aspirated engines, etc) then my answer is identical to my grudging acceptance of the Cayenne- sure. Like the Cayenne they will be amazing pieces of engineering and best in class to drive. Do I think they should be badged as GT cars? I don't... unless they go racing (which would be awesome).
The Cayenne undoubtedly diluted the Porsche brand to the point that a manufacture that once exclusively made sports cars today makes relatively few. The Cayenne just as undoubtedly made the company stronger, and the GT cars got better (and likely more valuable, because everything can be a value thread!) because of it. Comparing the pre and post Cayenne eras is striking. Call 1993 a good example of pre: Porsche was selling the 928 GTS, 968, 964 and 964 Turbo. All of these were very good cars, though none were very profitable. That lack of profitability impacted what Porsche could afford to engineer, and thus Porsche was far from the cutting edge. The 928's chassis started production 15 years prior, the 968's was an evolution of the 17 year old 924, while the oldest looking of the cars was actually the newest with a major refresh 4 years before. Though in Turbo form the 964 was still using 15 year old CIS despite the fact that the rest of Porsche's lineup had gone to electronic fuel injection a decade before.
In the decades post Porsche Cayenne (and post the 996/ boxster twins obviously) Porsche has clearly upped its engineering game. Under the skin the platforms and engines are all newer and better for it. Compare halo products: the 964 Turbo got leftover CIS because they couldn't afford to engineer EFI for such a low volume car. Meanwhile today the GT3's got an engine that's the envy of the world- still normally aspired, revs to 9k, finger follower cams with solid lifters and somehow Porsche has managed to keep it emissions legal and in the lineup when everything around it has given up and gone turbo. That type of engineering takes money, and that money is largely down to the bigger tent Porsche has has erected.
GT cars have held a special place within that tent, a breed apart. Most owners track or compete with their cars, and by owning a GT car you're identifying with that group. Do I think that most owners of a Flacht tuned Cayenne would track or compete with it? No, so to me it would make more sense to come up with a different label for that group. But I will say this- I'd like them to build that car and I'd like to drive it. Because if I'm at Flacht I'm looking straight back to the SC/RS and 959 and saying I will build a Cayenne for competition. In doing so I'd take square aim at the Raptor, and the demon offspring of a GT2 and Raptor sounds pretty fricken awesome now that I think about it.
The Cayenne undoubtedly diluted the Porsche brand to the point that a manufacture that once exclusively made sports cars today makes relatively few. The Cayenne just as undoubtedly made the company stronger, and the GT cars got better (and likely more valuable, because everything can be a value thread!) because of it. Comparing the pre and post Cayenne eras is striking. Call 1993 a good example of pre: Porsche was selling the 928 GTS, 968, 964 and 964 Turbo. All of these were very good cars, though none were very profitable. That lack of profitability impacted what Porsche could afford to engineer, and thus Porsche was far from the cutting edge. The 928's chassis started production 15 years prior, the 968's was an evolution of the 17 year old 924, while the oldest looking of the cars was actually the newest with a major refresh 4 years before. Though in Turbo form the 964 was still using 15 year old CIS despite the fact that the rest of Porsche's lineup had gone to electronic fuel injection a decade before.
In the decades post Porsche Cayenne (and post the 996/ boxster twins obviously) Porsche has clearly upped its engineering game. Under the skin the platforms and engines are all newer and better for it. Compare halo products: the 964 Turbo got leftover CIS because they couldn't afford to engineer EFI for such a low volume car. Meanwhile today the GT3's got an engine that's the envy of the world- still normally aspired, revs to 9k, finger follower cams with solid lifters and somehow Porsche has managed to keep it emissions legal and in the lineup when everything around it has given up and gone turbo. That type of engineering takes money, and that money is largely down to the bigger tent Porsche has has erected.
GT cars have held a special place within that tent, a breed apart. Most owners track or compete with their cars, and by owning a GT car you're identifying with that group. Do I think that most owners of a Flacht tuned Cayenne would track or compete with it? No, so to me it would make more sense to come up with a different label for that group. But I will say this- I'd like them to build that car and I'd like to drive it. Because if I'm at Flacht I'm looking straight back to the SC/RS and 959 and saying I will build a Cayenne for competition. In doing so I'd take square aim at the Raptor, and the demon offspring of a GT2 and Raptor sounds pretty fricken awesome now that I think about it.
So much truth to this.
05-06-2019, 10:55 PM
#25
SJW, a Carin' kinda guy
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. All these would have been perfect with a stick. Too bad they never made them.
05-07-2019, 12:34 AM
#27
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"This is the point where Porsche’s loyal fanbase begins sputtering in indignation. “But, but… Porsche builds those horrible trucks so they can keep making the cars that they really, secretly want to build! The cars that we love!” Yup, and the girl giving you a lap dance is just paying her way through engineering school, and the white powder around her left nostril is just makeup. I suppose that it might have been forgivable to buy that line twelve years ago when the Cayenne came out, because it was followed by the Cayman and the 996 GT3 and a couple of other cars that might not have made it to these shores had the company been pinching every penny.
Fast-forward to the present day, and it’s obvious that the Cayenne didn’t preserve sporting Porsches — it infected them. The 991 and 981 are bloated boats with monstrous center consoles and stratospheric pricing. If the trucks are subsidizing the cars, it isn’t obvious from the window stickers. The arrival of the 991 GT3, with its mandatory PDK, is a monstrous middle finger to the Panorama crowd, and Porsche’s avowal that it can’t afford to do a small two-seater below the Boxster even as it rolls out a small five-seater below the Cayenne amounts to a solid stream of disdainful urine into the face of anybody credulous enough to think that Porsche got into the truck game to preserve the purity of its fabled Nine Eleven. I’ve said it before, but we Porschephiles are almost like battered spouses in our eagerness to ascribe the best possible motives to our abuser despite all the evidence to the contrary"
It is what it is...
05-07-2019, 01:01 AM
#29
SJW, a Carin' kinda guy
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I’d be happy to head to my local lotus dealer, but the .gov killed the Elise/Exige and it closed and no one is buying evoras. I remember when they came out and I saw one in the showroom and the sales guy tried to sell me (I had my Elise). I got in and he started going through the features. I got out and said: “too much stuff for me.”
I’ve said it before and I will say it again, if the Exige cup 430 was imported, I’d have one over my GT3
I’ve said it before and I will say it again, if the Exige cup 430 was imported, I’d have one over my GT3
05-07-2019, 01:08 AM
#30
Racer
Yes, they are diluting the brand, in a similar vein to what BMW and Mercedes did with M and AMG. The difference is, however that BMW and Mercedes are not achieving abnormal profits (at $5k per vehicle a little higher than Toyota) vs Porsche at $17k per vehicle and Ferrari at $90k per vehicle. That's money made per vehicle AFTER R&D and investments.
So the excessive pricing that Porsche charges is nothing more than excessive pricing that goes into Porsche's (and VW's)/sharholders' pockets and not into their cars. At least with BMW and Mercedes, you get roughly what you paid for minus a modest margin instead of $12k in excess profit that goes right to Porsche.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...id=yhoo.hosted
So the excessive pricing that Porsche charges is nothing more than excessive pricing that goes into Porsche's (and VW's)/sharholders' pockets and not into their cars. At least with BMW and Mercedes, you get roughly what you paid for minus a modest margin instead of $12k in excess profit that goes right to Porsche.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...id=yhoo.hosted