First drive in 991 Speedster
05-20-2019, 10:32 AM
#226
Received an allocation for speedster trying to decide between silver heritage no decals or go all black not sure how the back is gonna look with the black gonna be a driver not parked in garage [img]blob:https://rennlist.com/222bb73f-7b04-43cb-9caf-885f34377aa1[/img][img]blob:https://rennlist.com/be939bd0-83ca-478c-a9b3-f873c09155d4[/img]
05-20-2019, 03:48 PM
#227
Nordschleife Master
“Surprise #4: The Speedster is Quieter than Expected
Going into this, I wondered if the Speedster would be the best sounding “hardcore” Porsche since the Carrera GT—a fair bet for the first roofless GT3. A drive in fellow Rennlister JP’s fantastic Arena Red 993 Speedster a while back only fed into that expectation, as the valley between its nacelles seemed to pipe the air-cooled engine’s noises right into my ear. Fantastic. So it was no small surprise when my co-driver and I both found that the 991 Speedster’s engine noises are collectively quieter than a GT3 or GT3 Touring (let alone an RS or 911R), and the reason for this is more than a matter of the particulate filters—it’s a matter of introducing what is effectively a second firewall and a “box” between the driver’s ears and the engine”
Thanks Pete, having just done 1100 top down miles to Luftgekült 6 and back, I can testify that not having a folded, insulated top behind your head really allows engine and cooling fan spooling music right into your ears. Something I dearly miss in the Cayman and 356 Coupe. It’s the magic that made me addicted to the 356 Speedsters in the ‘70’s and I was thrilled to find out it was even more audibly present in the 911, 964 and 993 variants.
Shame it has been ‘boxed up’ in the new car! But still a beautiful design exercise nonetheless. But... that Clamshell!! Surfs up everybody! 😏
Going into this, I wondered if the Speedster would be the best sounding “hardcore” Porsche since the Carrera GT—a fair bet for the first roofless GT3. A drive in fellow Rennlister JP’s fantastic Arena Red 993 Speedster a while back only fed into that expectation, as the valley between its nacelles seemed to pipe the air-cooled engine’s noises right into my ear. Fantastic. So it was no small surprise when my co-driver and I both found that the 991 Speedster’s engine noises are collectively quieter than a GT3 or GT3 Touring (let alone an RS or 911R), and the reason for this is more than a matter of the particulate filters—it’s a matter of introducing what is effectively a second firewall and a “box” between the driver’s ears and the engine”
Thanks Pete, having just done 1100 top down miles to Luftgekült 6 and back, I can testify that not having a folded, insulated top behind your head really allows engine and cooling fan spooling music right into your ears. Something I dearly miss in the Cayman and 356 Coupe. It’s the magic that made me addicted to the 356 Speedsters in the ‘70’s and I was thrilled to find out it was even more audibly present in the 911, 964 and 993 variants.
Shame it has been ‘boxed up’ in the new car! But still a beautiful design exercise nonetheless. But... that Clamshell!! Surfs up everybody! 😏
05-20-2019, 07:59 PM
#228
Drifting
I was at a wedding this past weekend, and I spent a lot of time talking to a European journalist who drove the Speedster in Sardinia (the groom works in the automotive industry).
He echoed Pete’s comments about throttle response and sound.
He loved the car and said he’d pick it over the forthcoming Ferrari “big brother” - ADM speedster prices will be near the base MSRP of the Ferrari (!)
He echoed Pete’s comments about throttle response and sound.
He loved the car and said he’d pick it over the forthcoming Ferrari “big brother” - ADM speedster prices will be near the base MSRP of the Ferrari (!)
05-20-2019, 10:46 PM
#229
Race Director
At the cost of sounding like a broken record, this does make the 918 Spyder /upcoming 718 Spyder with their fantastic behind your head engine sound, subjectively better aesthetics, and upcoming 4.0 NA engine, not to mention 1/3 price seem like a proverbial "no-brainer".
It's not apples to apples, but it's close enough that it's hard to ignore the obvious.
It's not apples to apples, but it's close enough that it's hard to ignore the obvious.
05-20-2019, 11:11 PM
#230
Has he seen or driven the new Ferrari? They’ve been keeping a tight lid on it so I wonder how he was able to already choose a favourite.
05-21-2019, 03:00 PM
#231
Drifting
He's quite a luddite in reality, although his writing strikes a different tone; he is interested in NA manual vs. a Ferrari that delivers vastly more performance at prices that are not dissimilar...
05-21-2019, 04:39 PM
#232
Nordschleife Master
At the cost of sounding like a broken record, this does make the 918 Spyder /upcoming 718 Spyder with their fantastic behind your head engine sound, subjectively better aesthetics, and upcoming 4.0 NA engine, not to mention 1/3 price seem like a proverbial "no-brainer".
It's not apples to apples, but it's close enough that it's hard to ignore the obvious.
It's not apples to apples, but it's close enough that it's hard to ignore the obvious.
05-21-2019, 04:45 PM
#233
Rennlist Member
At the cost of sounding like a broken record, this does make the 918 Spyder /upcoming 718 Spyder with their fantastic behind your head engine sound, subjectively better aesthetics, and upcoming 4.0 NA engine, not to mention 1/3 price seem like a proverbial "no-brainer".
It's not apples to apples, but it's close enough that it's hard to ignore the obvious.
It's not apples to apples, but it's close enough that it's hard to ignore the obvious.
And if I wanted to do regular track work, I’d add a .2 GT3 to the 718 spyder and still save money!
Last edited by Drifting; 05-21-2019 at 05:20 PM.
05-28-2019, 03:13 AM
#234
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Because I said I'd circle back with these, some answers to Rennlisters' questions asked early on that I am not sure were addressed…
Were the Individual Throttle Bodies necessary to compensate for loss of power/response w/particulate filters?
They were not added to compensate for a loss of power with the OPFs; they were added to increase throttle response—which does not necessarily lead to more peak power, but it does yield better partial throttle behaviour. The ITBs create a more turbulent intake charge, as well, which improves burn efficiency (and therefore emissions). So they serve a dual purpose.
Does Porsche envision designing two different exhaust systems for every car they make going forward?
No. Speedster will get the same lightweight exhaust for all markets.
How will Porsche redress HP/PS performance differences between OPF and non-OPF cars? Software?
U.S. cars will come with a substitute in place of the filter. U.S. cars will not be more powerful if the substitute is taken out—the engine is set up for the amount of back pressure with the new system. An OPF is not a hp killer; that’s a common misconception.
Is the Speedster engine the 992 GT3 engine—will the next GT3 have ITBs?
"No, we will use a miniature version of starship enterprises warp drives on 992 GT3."
When will Porsche release the 982 Boxster Spyder?
Soon.
Why no PDK in the Speedster?
Speedster is a "purist's car," so it will have as many man/machine interfaces as possible. Also, Porsche Motorsport wanted to make the car as light as possible, noting this as a "Speedster typical characteristic and virtue."
One Speedster concept/prototype had no top at all, which we loved. Why not offer this way?
Porsche wanted the car to be used "rather than held back in the garage because an owner might run into rain." Those who want to remove the top system can certainly do so.
How hard would it be to un-bolt the soft top and leave it behind? How much weight would that save?
"Shouldn’t be too hard to have the top taken out." The numbers are: 32 kg (70.6 lb) for the top, 8 kg (17.6 lb) for the kinematics of the lid, 6 kg (13.2 lb) for all "carpentry and foams in the roof lid." Apparently, the factory roll-over protection—which is shared with the 991 Cabriolet—is 18 kg (39.7 lb). Fwiw, you wouldn't see me deleting that.
Suspension tuning philosophy vs 911R?
"Tuning for furthermore enhanced agility, similar to 911R."
Any suspension re-calibration necessary for the softer chassis?
"Soft is the wrong expression, damping characteristics on compression and rebound are more tuned to street use than track use." Spring rates are the same as in GT3."
Were the Individual Throttle Bodies necessary to compensate for loss of power/response w/particulate filters?
They were not added to compensate for a loss of power with the OPFs; they were added to increase throttle response—which does not necessarily lead to more peak power, but it does yield better partial throttle behaviour. The ITBs create a more turbulent intake charge, as well, which improves burn efficiency (and therefore emissions). So they serve a dual purpose.
Does Porsche envision designing two different exhaust systems for every car they make going forward?
No. Speedster will get the same lightweight exhaust for all markets.
How will Porsche redress HP/PS performance differences between OPF and non-OPF cars? Software?
U.S. cars will come with a substitute in place of the filter. U.S. cars will not be more powerful if the substitute is taken out—the engine is set up for the amount of back pressure with the new system. An OPF is not a hp killer; that’s a common misconception.
Is the Speedster engine the 992 GT3 engine—will the next GT3 have ITBs?
"No, we will use a miniature version of starship enterprises warp drives on 992 GT3."
When will Porsche release the 982 Boxster Spyder?
Soon.
Why no PDK in the Speedster?
Speedster is a "purist's car," so it will have as many man/machine interfaces as possible. Also, Porsche Motorsport wanted to make the car as light as possible, noting this as a "Speedster typical characteristic and virtue."
One Speedster concept/prototype had no top at all, which we loved. Why not offer this way?
Porsche wanted the car to be used "rather than held back in the garage because an owner might run into rain." Those who want to remove the top system can certainly do so.
How hard would it be to un-bolt the soft top and leave it behind? How much weight would that save?
"Shouldn’t be too hard to have the top taken out." The numbers are: 32 kg (70.6 lb) for the top, 8 kg (17.6 lb) for the kinematics of the lid, 6 kg (13.2 lb) for all "carpentry and foams in the roof lid." Apparently, the factory roll-over protection—which is shared with the 991 Cabriolet—is 18 kg (39.7 lb). Fwiw, you wouldn't see me deleting that.
Suspension tuning philosophy vs 911R?
"Tuning for furthermore enhanced agility, similar to 911R."
Any suspension re-calibration necessary for the softer chassis?
"Soft is the wrong expression, damping characteristics on compression and rebound are more tuned to street use than track use." Spring rates are the same as in GT3."
05-28-2019, 03:42 AM
#235
SJW, a Carin' kinda guy
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Excellent Stout!
How hard would it be to un-bolt the soft top and leave it behind? How much weight would that save?
"Shouldn’t be too hard to have the top taken out." The numbers are: 32 kg (70.6 lb) for the top, 8 kg (17.6 lb) for the kinematics of the lid, 6 kg (13.2 lb) for all "carpentry and foams in the roof lid." Apparently, the factory roll-over protection—which is shared with the 991 Cabriolet—is 18 kg (39.7 lb). Fwiw, you wouldn't see me deleting that.
Deleting the glass side windows would also save a fair bit of weight. FYI, if you did delete the roll over protection, you would probably get an airbag code. At least that is true on Lambos.
How hard would it be to un-bolt the soft top and leave it behind? How much weight would that save?
"Shouldn’t be too hard to have the top taken out." The numbers are: 32 kg (70.6 lb) for the top, 8 kg (17.6 lb) for the kinematics of the lid, 6 kg (13.2 lb) for all "carpentry and foams in the roof lid." Apparently, the factory roll-over protection—which is shared with the 991 Cabriolet—is 18 kg (39.7 lb). Fwiw, you wouldn't see me deleting that.
Deleting the glass side windows would also save a fair bit of weight. FYI, if you did delete the roll over protection, you would probably get an airbag code. At least that is true on Lambos.
05-28-2019, 06:22 AM
#236
Rennlist Member
Originally Posted by CAlexio
At the cost of sounding like a broken record, this does make the 918 Spyder /upcoming 718 Spyder with their fantastic behind your head engine sound, subjectively better aesthetics, and upcoming 4.0 NA engine, not to mention 1/3 price seem like a proverbial "no-brainer".
It's not apples to apples, but it's close enough that it's hard to ignore the obvious.
It's not apples to apples, but it's close enough that it's hard to ignore the obvious.
05-28-2019, 06:23 AM
#237
Rennlist Member
I owned a 981 spyder and man, the sound track on it, top up or down bested a gt4 quite a bit. Interestingly enough i rented a 911 gts cab this week. With the top down it is DEAD quiet. With top up it sounds decent. I've never owned a 911 convertible. Seems like the rear engine with a soft top between you and engine vs a mid-engine with engine directly behind you makes a big diff. Granted, it's a 911 GTS vs a speedster. But even the base boxster doesn't seem to have the sound blanket insulation effect that the rear engines 911s do?
Pete, did u drive it with top up by chance? If so, any better sound track? Not like that helps anything: who buys a speedster to drive with top up?!!!
Pete, did u drive it with top up by chance? If so, any better sound track? Not like that helps anything: who buys a speedster to drive with top up?!!!
05-28-2019, 12:14 PM
#238
Drifting
Does Porsche envision designing two different exhaust systems for every car they make going forward?
No. Speedster will get the same lightweight exhaust for all markets.
How will Porsche redress HP/PS performance differences between OPF and non-OPF cars? Software?
U.S. cars will come with a substitute in place of the filter. U.S. cars will not be more powerful if the substitute is taken out—the engine is set up for the amount of back pressure with the new system. An OPF is not a hp killer; that’s a common misconception.
No. Speedster will get the same lightweight exhaust for all markets.
How will Porsche redress HP/PS performance differences between OPF and non-OPF cars? Software?
U.S. cars will come with a substitute in place of the filter. U.S. cars will not be more powerful if the substitute is taken out—the engine is set up for the amount of back pressure with the new system. An OPF is not a hp killer; that’s a common misconception.
On the first question, I meant to convey an emphasis on the "going forward" part; i.e., my question is will Porsche make exhausts for Europe/OPF countries as well as different exhausts for the rest of the world, or will they do what they did on the Speedster for every future vehicle?
Another journalist (I don't think he was on your wave, but you almost certainly know him) told me that the car sounded "quite bad" at a wedding last weekend, which is rather disappointing.
05-29-2019, 03:14 AM
#239
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Thanks Pete, having just done 1100 top down miles to Luftgekült 6 and back, I can testify that not having a folded, insulated top behind your head really allows engine and cooling fan spooling music right into your ears. Something I dearly miss in the Cayman and 356 Coupe. It’s the magic that made me addicted to the 356 Speedsters in the ‘70’s and I was thrilled to find out it was even more audibly present in the 911, 964 and 993 variants.
Shame it has been ‘boxed up’ in the new car! But still a beautiful design exercise nonetheless. But... that Clamshell!! Surfs up everybody! 😏
Shame it has been ‘boxed up’ in the new car! But still a beautiful design exercise nonetheless. But... that Clamshell!! Surfs up everybody! 😏
At the cost of sounding like a broken record, this does make the 918 Spyder /upcoming 718 Spyder with their fantastic behind your head engine sound, subjectively better aesthetics, and upcoming 4.0 NA engine, not to mention 1/3 price seem like a proverbial "no-brainer".
It's not apples to apples, but it's close enough that it's hard to ignore the obvious.
It's not apples to apples, but it's close enough that it's hard to ignore the obvious.
Interestingly enough i rented a 911 gts cab this week. With the top down it is DEAD quiet. With top up it sounds decent. I've never owned a 911 convertible. Seems like the rear engine with a soft top between you and engine vs a mid-engine with engine directly behind you makes a big diff. Granted, it's a 911 GTS vs a speedster. But even the base boxster doesn't seem to have the sound blanket insulation effect that the rear engines 911s do?
Pete these were mine (as I recall, at least)
On the first question, I meant to convey an emphasis on the "going forward" part; i.e., my question is will Porsche make exhausts for Europe/OPF countries as well as different exhausts for the rest of the world, or will they do what they did on the Speedster for every future vehicle?
Another journalist (I don't think he was on your wave, but you almost certainly know him) told me that the car sounded "quite bad" at a wedding last weekend, which is rather disappointing.
On the first question, I meant to convey an emphasis on the "going forward" part; i.e., my question is will Porsche make exhausts for Europe/OPF countries as well as different exhausts for the rest of the world, or will they do what they did on the Speedster for every future vehicle?
Another journalist (I don't think he was on your wave, but you almost certainly know him) told me that the car sounded "quite bad" at a wedding last weekend, which is rather disappointing.
Would have to disagree with that journalist on the sound. It may be quieter than a 911R or a GT3 Touring, but it's still a flat six back there, and a buttery one with an edge that happily races its way towards the big 9 on the tach. Been thinking about this a fair bit, and do think something fundamental changed with the 997.1 GT3. I remember listening to the US press car as JvO punted it around Sears Point years ago for an Excellence test back to back with a 996 GT3, and the difference was stunning. One sounded like a race car, and it wasn't the 996. From there forward, we moved away from Porsches tuned for the driver's enjoyment to Porsche's tuned for everyone's enjoyment. I like them, too, but our sense of "loud" and "quiet" when it comes to 911s seems a bit skewed these days. Speedster may disappoint those who are expecting a 911R/GT3T soundtrack, and I think it is quieter than the 981 Boxster Spyder, but I certainly thought about what the car behind me must be thinking every time I opened the thing up to make a pass. Quiet? No. Quite bad? Not sure I share that opinion...but would love to spend some time with a Speedster back to back with some other benchmarks.
05-29-2019, 08:42 AM
#240
Rennlist Member
OT: that's one of my problems with the 996-3: Doesn't have that screaming "race car" sound the 997's do. I'm sure it can be rectified with some exhaust work but don't think it's just an easy center bypass swap? Maybe I'm wrong. As much as I'm tempted to add one, sound and looks always cause me to pause. But I had a co-pilot drive around Silverstone in one with a very good driver and I didn't once think about how it looked or sounded. Was amazing 
