991.2 GT3 RS vs. Mclaren 600LT at Big Willow, Randy Pobst
04-19-2019, 01:26 AM
#46
Platinum Dealership
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Guys this is exactly why Rich and I did the 4 car one session timed lap comparo (here:
)
Same driver (me, not randy- none of us is Randy)
720
2019 3RS
2018 GT3
675
Sorry we didn't have the 600LT (filmed 10/31) but the breakdown in laps was that in a total of 5 laps per car I did the fastest lap in 720, slowest in GT3 and the 3RS and 675 had almost identical times.
The 3RS, 675 and 600LT all feel very similar in terms of the 'planted' feel you get from the combination of anti-roll bar stiffness / anti-dive that the suspension creates. They are all really flat cars to drive. The 720 and Gt3 roll a lot more.
Cup2R's are, for 3-4 sessions- at least 1 second per minute faster. They are not .1, or .2 from a 'normal' MPSC2. They are at least responsible for 1 second on a timed lap.
Case in point- the GT2RS vs the Manthey GT2RS...do you guys really think the little gurney flaps give SO MUCH downforce that the car is 10 seconds faster at the ring? That setup might be good for 3-4 seconds and the rest is all tires.
Each person can see merit in certain things but lets agree to call the Cup2R what it is- a very expensive boost.
Tire sizing for mclaren is/ will continue to be a mystery- even for me. The P1 came on 245/305. Derp. If it had 265/325's like the 3RS/918/2RS...it would have roasted the 918 everywhere. Digression...
However, they do have the best steering available on any cars sold. This is totally apparent as to why the 600LT is better than the 675LT for almost everyone...they took what was in my opinion the best ever steering feel in a car and made it about 20% more livable for street use.
The 3RS is the best handling GT car they have made yet. Everything is a factor- brake feel, steering, suspension grip, components etc. Ride quality is noticeably worse than the 2016 but like most track guys I'll take track grip over comfort all day (within 10% or within reason).
They are all good cars. The 720S and Gt2RS in the Randy tests are still fastest. We can argue over 3-10 on the lap board all we want. The senna will destroy all of them, the Gt3 RSR will destroy that, an LMP2 car is way faster, the AMR-001 Pro is faster still...who cares.
Do you like the way your car feels?
Yes? Cool.
No? Try something else.
Same driver (me, not randy- none of us is Randy)
720
2019 3RS
2018 GT3
675
Sorry we didn't have the 600LT (filmed 10/31) but the breakdown in laps was that in a total of 5 laps per car I did the fastest lap in 720, slowest in GT3 and the 3RS and 675 had almost identical times.
The 3RS, 675 and 600LT all feel very similar in terms of the 'planted' feel you get from the combination of anti-roll bar stiffness / anti-dive that the suspension creates. They are all really flat cars to drive. The 720 and Gt3 roll a lot more.
Cup2R's are, for 3-4 sessions- at least 1 second per minute faster. They are not .1, or .2 from a 'normal' MPSC2. They are at least responsible for 1 second on a timed lap.
Case in point- the GT2RS vs the Manthey GT2RS...do you guys really think the little gurney flaps give SO MUCH downforce that the car is 10 seconds faster at the ring? That setup might be good for 3-4 seconds and the rest is all tires.
Each person can see merit in certain things but lets agree to call the Cup2R what it is- a very expensive boost.
Tire sizing for mclaren is/ will continue to be a mystery- even for me. The P1 came on 245/305. Derp. If it had 265/325's like the 3RS/918/2RS...it would have roasted the 918 everywhere. Digression...
However, they do have the best steering available on any cars sold. This is totally apparent as to why the 600LT is better than the 675LT for almost everyone...they took what was in my opinion the best ever steering feel in a car and made it about 20% more livable for street use.
The 3RS is the best handling GT car they have made yet. Everything is a factor- brake feel, steering, suspension grip, components etc. Ride quality is noticeably worse than the 2016 but like most track guys I'll take track grip over comfort all day (within 10% or within reason).
They are all good cars. The 720S and Gt2RS in the Randy tests are still fastest. We can argue over 3-10 on the lap board all we want. The senna will destroy all of them, the Gt3 RSR will destroy that, an LMP2 car is way faster, the AMR-001 Pro is faster still...who cares.
Do you like the way your car feels?
Yes? Cool.
No? Try something else.
04-19-2019, 06:55 AM
#48
Quite a surprise for the 600LT. Also I don’t trust any Italian car numbers unless it’s a customers car. Misrepresentation is something they’re just very comfortable with.
If you normalized the tires, the RS and 600LT should be neck and neck. The Cup 2 R’s are well ahead of the field.
If you normalized the tires, the RS and 600LT should be neck and neck. The Cup 2 R’s are well ahead of the field.
04-19-2019, 09:06 AM
#49
Nordschleife Master
CJ nailed it. 100%
Looking at the Head to Head times I suspect though something was up with those Cup Rs. Likely worn??? RS on stock tires is right out of the box .5 to 1 second a lap faster than a GT3 as documented elsewhere and by Throttle Dogs. Again the 600 was on Trofeo Rs in the H to H...a definite step up from base Cup 2.
See time comparison to Throttle Dogs where cars where on stock tires I believe
. While C.J. is humble and admittedly not Randy he no doubt is a “hot shoe”.
See lap time comparison compiled by Fast Laps as to the RS and FGT on stock tires. Within a whisker just like in H to H.
And there was any doubt as to the track assassin the 3RS is just review Evo three Kings and how it compares in lap times to the Viper ACR. All you need to know right there.
I think in the end the slightest changes and factors can make a huge difference when comparing these cars lap times ..track configuration, conditions, tires, driver, pads etc..
Last edited by Waxer; 04-19-2019 at 09:27 AM.
04-19-2019, 02:37 PM
#50
Burning Brakes
Here is actual information from the Head 2 Head episode:
GT3RS with PCCB, WP, Bucket Seats. Standard Interior
600LT with CCB and the P1 seats (not the lighter Senna seats), and some external carbon fiber options (McLaren's 600LT can vary by ~30 lbs depending on lightest spec vs. base spec)
Weight
GT3RS: 3,245 lbs
600 LT: 3,101 lbs
Dyno Power at K&N Engineering in Riverside, CA
GT3RS: 422hp and 294 ft-lbs at the wheels
600LT: 530hp and 453 ft-lbs at the wheels
Under heavy rain and puddles both cars were lapped by Randy Pobst
GT3 RS on MPSC2-N2: 1:38.97
600 LT on PZero (regular Pzeroes): 1:32.72
Per Randy Pobst, the PZero tires made a big difference
Rain stopped, and big cloud was coming, the track was not dry, it was semi-dry and obviously not rubbered down, so grip levels cannot be compared to Willow Spring on dry/sunny days, especially after SCCA/PCA/NASA Club races
The Porsche support team installed Cup2, the McLaren support team installed Trofeo R
Lap Times:
GT3RS: 1:23.67
600LT: 1:24.71
Now my opinions:
Motor Trend weighs cars on a full tank of fuel (and so do C&D and R&T), but most GT3RS have the extended 90L fuel tank, so at no fuel the weights above would stand as:
GT3 RS: ~3,097 lbs
600LT: ~2,982 lbs
But a 600LT already comes with forged wheels, a lithium battery and a super light exhaust. Apply these minor changes to a GT3 RS (the tested car didn't have Magnesium optional wheels), lighter exhaust and an Antigravity Awesome Lithium battery with the Bluetooth monitor and my iPhone app + the built-in jump starter, and both cars are in very similar weight.
On a dry day, both cars will go a lot faster at least 1 second faster. The track wasn't dry, the 2 car videos on the semi-dry track show the true conditions.
Willow Springs rewards big Aero at T2, T8 and T9. I out-lapped my own 997 GT3RS (on MPSC) with my SpecBoxster (on R888) everywhere but these 3 turns due to an aero advantage in the 997GT3RS, and that old GT3RS didn't produce near the current GT3 levels of downforce. This is one track where a 991 GT3RS can close the gap with the 600LT.
At tracks with less use of downforce (most of them in U.S.) the much more powerful and lighter 600LT should lap faster on equal rubber compound, despite of smaller tire sizes. 245/305 fit perfectly under the 600LT fenders.
Under most amateur hands, the 600LT is faster around a track or road course, most amateurs can't drive decent Aero cars, most amateurs park cars on the corners and hit gas on the straights, under these conditions, the 600LT will always prevail.
On true dry conditions, all the cars listed on the MT table would be less than 3 secs apart at Willow Springs, and at most track days I attend, same car/tires with different drivers are separated by much more than 3 secs (I rarely see 991 GT3s breaking under 2:20s at Sebring, and that's over 7 secs slower than a 991.1 GT3RS with a good driver, and 6 secs slower than my lousy driving in my old 991.1 GT3RS).
McLaren is building an awesome car, and I'm glad that there is a brand with a focus on true track performance without dumbed-down customer cars like the 2 brands from Italy.
GT3RS with PCCB, WP, Bucket Seats. Standard Interior
600LT with CCB and the P1 seats (not the lighter Senna seats), and some external carbon fiber options (McLaren's 600LT can vary by ~30 lbs depending on lightest spec vs. base spec)
Weight
GT3RS: 3,245 lbs
600 LT: 3,101 lbs
Dyno Power at K&N Engineering in Riverside, CA
GT3RS: 422hp and 294 ft-lbs at the wheels
600LT: 530hp and 453 ft-lbs at the wheels
Under heavy rain and puddles both cars were lapped by Randy Pobst
GT3 RS on MPSC2-N2: 1:38.97
600 LT on PZero (regular Pzeroes): 1:32.72
Per Randy Pobst, the PZero tires made a big difference
Rain stopped, and big cloud was coming, the track was not dry, it was semi-dry and obviously not rubbered down, so grip levels cannot be compared to Willow Spring on dry/sunny days, especially after SCCA/PCA/NASA Club races
The Porsche support team installed Cup2, the McLaren support team installed Trofeo R
Lap Times:
GT3RS: 1:23.67
600LT: 1:24.71
Now my opinions:
Motor Trend weighs cars on a full tank of fuel (and so do C&D and R&T), but most GT3RS have the extended 90L fuel tank, so at no fuel the weights above would stand as:
GT3 RS: ~3,097 lbs
600LT: ~2,982 lbs
But a 600LT already comes with forged wheels, a lithium battery and a super light exhaust. Apply these minor changes to a GT3 RS (the tested car didn't have Magnesium optional wheels), lighter exhaust and an Antigravity Awesome Lithium battery with the Bluetooth monitor and my iPhone app + the built-in jump starter, and both cars are in very similar weight.
On a dry day, both cars will go a lot faster at least 1 second faster. The track wasn't dry, the 2 car videos on the semi-dry track show the true conditions.
Willow Springs rewards big Aero at T2, T8 and T9. I out-lapped my own 997 GT3RS (on MPSC) with my SpecBoxster (on R888) everywhere but these 3 turns due to an aero advantage in the 997GT3RS, and that old GT3RS didn't produce near the current GT3 levels of downforce. This is one track where a 991 GT3RS can close the gap with the 600LT.
At tracks with less use of downforce (most of them in U.S.) the much more powerful and lighter 600LT should lap faster on equal rubber compound, despite of smaller tire sizes. 245/305 fit perfectly under the 600LT fenders.
Under most amateur hands, the 600LT is faster around a track or road course, most amateurs can't drive decent Aero cars, most amateurs park cars on the corners and hit gas on the straights, under these conditions, the 600LT will always prevail.
On true dry conditions, all the cars listed on the MT table would be less than 3 secs apart at Willow Springs, and at most track days I attend, same car/tires with different drivers are separated by much more than 3 secs (I rarely see 991 GT3s breaking under 2:20s at Sebring, and that's over 7 secs slower than a 991.1 GT3RS with a good driver, and 6 secs slower than my lousy driving in my old 991.1 GT3RS).
McLaren is building an awesome car, and I'm glad that there is a brand with a focus on true track performance without dumbed-down customer cars like the 2 brands from Italy.
04-19-2019, 04:03 PM
#51
Nordschleife Master
Here is actual information from the Head 2 Head episode:
GT3RS with PCCB, WP, Bucket Seats. Standard Interior
600LT with CCB and the P1 seats (not the lighter Senna seats), and some external carbon fiber options (McLaren's 600LT can vary by ~30 lbs depending on lightest spec vs. base spec)
Weight
GT3RS: 3,245 lbs
600 LT: 3,101 lbs
Dyno Power at K&N Engineering in Riverside, CA
GT3RS: 422hp and 294 ft-lbs at the wheels
600LT: 530hp and 453 ft-lbs at the wheels
Under heavy rain and puddles both cars were lapped by Randy Pobst
GT3 RS on MPSC2-N2: 1:38.97
600 LT on PZero (regular Pzeroes): 1:32.72
Per Randy Pobst, the PZero tires made a big difference
Rain stopped, and big cloud was coming, the track was not dry, it was semi-dry and obviously not rubbered down, so grip levels cannot be compared to Willow Spring on dry/sunny days, especially after SCCA/PCA/NASA Club races
The Porsche support team installed Cup2, the McLaren support team installed Trofeo R
Lap Times:
GT3RS: 1:23.67
600LT: 1:24.71
Now my opinions:
Motor Trend weighs cars on a full tank of fuel (and so do C&D and R&T), but most GT3RS have the extended 90L fuel tank, so at no fuel the weights above would stand as:
GT3 RS: ~3,097 lbs
600LT: ~2,982 lbs
But a 600LT already comes with forged wheels, a lithium battery and a super light exhaust. Apply these minor changes to a GT3 RS (the tested car didn't have Magnesium optional wheels), lighter exhaust and an Antigravity Awesome Lithium battery with the Bluetooth monitor and my iPhone app + the built-in jump starter, and both cars are in very similar weight.
On a dry day, both cars will go a lot faster at least 1 second faster. The track wasn't dry, the 2 car videos on the semi-dry track show the true conditions.
Willow Springs rewards big Aero at T2, T8 and T9. I out-lapped my own 997 GT3RS (on MPSC) with my SpecBoxster (on R888) everywhere but these 3 turns due to an aero advantage in the 997GT3RS, and that old GT3RS didn't produce near the current GT3 levels of downforce. This is one track where a 991 GT3RS can close the gap with the 600LT.
At tracks with less use of downforce (most of them in U.S.) the much more powerful and lighter 600LT should lap faster on equal rubber compound, despite of smaller tire sizes. 245/305 fit perfectly under the 600LT fenders.
Under most amateur hands, the 600LT is faster around a track or road course, most amateurs can't drive decent Aero cars, most amateurs park cars on the corners and hit gas on the straights, under these conditions, the 600LT will always prevail.
On true dry conditions, all the cars listed on the MT table would be less than 3 secs apart at Willow Springs, and at most track days I attend, same car/tires with different drivers are separated by much more than 3 secs (I rarely see 991 GT3s breaking under 2:20s at Sebring, and that's over 7 secs slower than a 991.1 GT3RS with a good driver, and 6 secs slower than my lousy driving in my old 991.1 GT3RS).
McLaren is building an awesome car, and I'm glad that there is a brand with a focus on true track performance without dumbed-down customer cars like the 2 brands from Italy.
GT3RS with PCCB, WP, Bucket Seats. Standard Interior
600LT with CCB and the P1 seats (not the lighter Senna seats), and some external carbon fiber options (McLaren's 600LT can vary by ~30 lbs depending on lightest spec vs. base spec)
Weight
GT3RS: 3,245 lbs
600 LT: 3,101 lbs
Dyno Power at K&N Engineering in Riverside, CA
GT3RS: 422hp and 294 ft-lbs at the wheels
600LT: 530hp and 453 ft-lbs at the wheels
Under heavy rain and puddles both cars were lapped by Randy Pobst
GT3 RS on MPSC2-N2: 1:38.97
600 LT on PZero (regular Pzeroes): 1:32.72
Per Randy Pobst, the PZero tires made a big difference
Rain stopped, and big cloud was coming, the track was not dry, it was semi-dry and obviously not rubbered down, so grip levels cannot be compared to Willow Spring on dry/sunny days, especially after SCCA/PCA/NASA Club races
The Porsche support team installed Cup2, the McLaren support team installed Trofeo R
Lap Times:
GT3RS: 1:23.67
600LT: 1:24.71
Now my opinions:
Motor Trend weighs cars on a full tank of fuel (and so do C&D and R&T), but most GT3RS have the extended 90L fuel tank, so at no fuel the weights above would stand as:
GT3 RS: ~3,097 lbs
600LT: ~2,982 lbs
But a 600LT already comes with forged wheels, a lithium battery and a super light exhaust. Apply these minor changes to a GT3 RS (the tested car didn't have Magnesium optional wheels), lighter exhaust and an Antigravity Awesome Lithium battery with the Bluetooth monitor and my iPhone app + the built-in jump starter, and both cars are in very similar weight.
On a dry day, both cars will go a lot faster at least 1 second faster. The track wasn't dry, the 2 car videos on the semi-dry track show the true conditions.
Willow Springs rewards big Aero at T2, T8 and T9. I out-lapped my own 997 GT3RS (on MPSC) with my SpecBoxster (on R888) everywhere but these 3 turns due to an aero advantage in the 997GT3RS, and that old GT3RS didn't produce near the current GT3 levels of downforce. This is one track where a 991 GT3RS can close the gap with the 600LT.
At tracks with less use of downforce (most of them in U.S.) the much more powerful and lighter 600LT should lap faster on equal rubber compound, despite of smaller tire sizes. 245/305 fit perfectly under the 600LT fenders.
Under most amateur hands, the 600LT is faster around a track or road course, most amateurs can't drive decent Aero cars, most amateurs park cars on the corners and hit gas on the straights, under these conditions, the 600LT will always prevail.
On true dry conditions, all the cars listed on the MT table would be less than 3 secs apart at Willow Springs, and at most track days I attend, same car/tires with different drivers are separated by much more than 3 secs (I rarely see 991 GT3s breaking under 2:20s at Sebring, and that's over 7 secs slower than a 991.1 GT3RS with a good driver, and 6 secs slower than my lousy driving in my old 991.1 GT3RS).
McLaren is building an awesome car, and I'm glad that there is a brand with a focus on true track performance without dumbed-down customer cars like the 2 brands from Italy.
04-19-2019, 05:03 PM
#52
Drifting
They dyno'd a .2 RS and only got 422hp at the wheels? 20% seems like a rather large powertrain loss.
04-19-2019, 08:03 PM
#53
Dynos are weird. Done on the same day and the same dyno you can compare, as in this case, but in my experience results vary widely from shop to shop in absolute numbers. Put that same RS on a different dyno and you would likely get different numbers, perhaps substantially different.
04-19-2019, 08:08 PM
#54
Drifting
Dynos are weird. Done on the same day and the same dyno you can compare, as in this case, but in my experience results vary widely from shop to shop in absolute numbers. Put that same RS on a different dyno and you would likely get different numbers, perhaps substantially different.
04-19-2019, 08:15 PM
#55
Actually a quick Google turns up 574 on Hennesey's dyno, with 493 ft/lb torque.
https://www.motor1.com/news/344474/m...baseline-dyno/
04-19-2019, 08:59 PM
#58
Rennlist Member
Old vid but shows a GT3 vs 570 damp track. Spoil alert. The GT3 was faster.
04-19-2019, 09:05 PM
#59
Drifting
Seems to me I've seen 600LT dyno numbers in the mid 540's somewhere, so the Mac number is down a bit too. What have you seen elsewhere for the RS?
Actually a quick Google turns up 574 on Hennesey's dyno, with 493 ft/lb torque.
https://www.motor1.com/news/344474/m...baseline-dyno/
Actually a quick Google turns up 574 on Hennesey's dyno, with 493 ft/lb torque.
https://www.motor1.com/news/344474/m...baseline-dyno/
