Steel v. PCCB - Paul Watson
03-25-2019, 10:00 PM
#46
Instructor
PCCB fan here... .2 GT3 is my first experience with them and love the feel (subjective).
I will not be spending $30k on a brake job ever and doubt many PCCB owners will either. 1) If I do manage to wear them out I will replace with STs not OEM which is currently 1/2 the cost. 2) If I do have to replace them ever I think we can safely say they will last 2x as long as irons so if it costs 2x you are breaking even and 3) Just a guess but think PCCB replacement costs will come down over time as they become more common.
Summary (as it has always been) is if you live at the track get irons. If your GT3 is your fun car that lives on public roads or even makes a few appearances at the track then PCCB may be for you. Only you can decide if the price is worth it.
I will not be spending $30k on a brake job ever and doubt many PCCB owners will either. 1) If I do manage to wear them out I will replace with STs not OEM which is currently 1/2 the cost. 2) If I do have to replace them ever I think we can safely say they will last 2x as long as irons so if it costs 2x you are breaking even and 3) Just a guess but think PCCB replacement costs will come down over time as they become more common.
Summary (as it has always been) is if you live at the track get irons. If your GT3 is your fun car that lives on public roads or even makes a few appearances at the track then PCCB may be for you. Only you can decide if the price is worth it.
03-25-2019, 10:02 PM
#47
^^ exactly, it’s just too costly. To be fair, it may not be a yearly expense as the PCCBs would likely last 2 yrs with moderate track use before the wear indicators (gen 1 PCCBs) or weight/carbon density measurements reached replacement level (for gen 2 or gen 3 PCCBs). My PCCBs lasted 2yrs with about 5 track events per year before the wear indicators showed and I switched to Girodiscs. Granted I was in the lower run groups back then and only doing about 5 events a year. Today in my advanced group and at 8-9 events per year, I might be lucky to get 1.5 yrs, if that. The point is, the benefits of PCCBs are both well documented and can be attested by those who have used them on track. The replacement cost is just too damn high...!!!
03-26-2019, 01:08 AM
#50
Pro
This is consistent with what I’ve read on the forums, and the reason I picked steel for my GT3.
https://www.autoblog.com/amp/2019/03...r-race-tracks/
It’s also very gutsy of Paul Watson to have said this without knowing if Porsche makes greater margins from PCCB or steel. If Paul just poo’d on PCCB and Porsche doesn’t like that, Paul maybe looking for a job. And, if he does, he’s a man to hire because he’s got integrity and, you know he’s calling it straight.
Dan (needs to forward this article to his service director who thinks PCCBs will last longer than Steel)
https://www.autoblog.com/amp/2019/03...r-race-tracks/
It’s also very gutsy of Paul Watson to have said this without knowing if Porsche makes greater margins from PCCB or steel. If Paul just poo’d on PCCB and Porsche doesn’t like that, Paul maybe looking for a job. And, if he does, he’s a man to hire because he’s got integrity and, you know he’s calling it straight.
Dan (needs to forward this article to his service director who thinks PCCBs will last longer than Steel)
While there is 'some truth' in his post... if you're looking for a dedicated track car, and looking for the most cost effective solution with little loss in performance vs. PCCB then Iron are absolutely the way to go, that's what he should have said.
However, if you're looking for that absolute last tenth of a second on the track, or that hundredth of a second in straight line acceleration and enjoy the benefit of clean wheels... then PCCB's are for you. (Paul you can use this quote in your next interview)
Best Regards,
Dave
03-26-2019, 02:07 AM
#51
RL Community Team
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
I will never track another car with irons.
#PCCBsForLife
#PCCBsForLife
03-26-2019, 06:21 AM
#52
If iron rotors are good enough for GT class racing I think it's fair to say they are 'sufficient' for road car use....
03-26-2019, 07:10 AM
#53
So both my GT3's and former RS had steels. Track time to varying degrees on them. New RS has PCCB and I literally cannot tell one bit of difference. Zero. Nada. Oh wait...they are very clean and don't require Adams Wheel cleaner when cleaning the car.
03-26-2019, 08:25 AM
#54
+1
When I spec my cars, I’m never asking myself what would be sufficient, but rather what would be superior.
When I spec my cars, I’m never asking myself what would be sufficient, but rather what would be superior.
03-26-2019, 10:35 AM
#55
Rennlist Member
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: West Vancouver and San Francisco
Posts: 4,178
Received 1,139 Likes
on
560 Posts
The dust is not from pad wear but from rotor wear, which is much bigger by mass than pads. Pad dust is almost negligible in comparison. Ceramic rotors have no wear, so no rotor dust. Pads that are less abrasive (gentle on rotors) cut dust for steels, but it's still night and day compared to ceramics.
Ceramics got bad rep for wear because many were changing them out prematurely - measuring them on the hub produces an incorrect measurements that may exaggerate the wear significantly. Also, many mistakenly believe that ceramic rotors need to be replaced if they are grooved, pitted or chipped at all. That's not the case unless the damage is over some very significant thresholds (like over 1/4" chunks missing, but not a grove you can barely feel with a finger nail). So I'd pick ceramics for any car that sees fewer than 8 near-pro track days a year.
Ceramics got bad rep for wear because many were changing them out prematurely - measuring them on the hub produces an incorrect measurements that may exaggerate the wear significantly. Also, many mistakenly believe that ceramic rotors need to be replaced if they are grooved, pitted or chipped at all. That's not the case unless the damage is over some very significant thresholds (like over 1/4" chunks missing, but not a grove you can barely feel with a finger nail). So I'd pick ceramics for any car that sees fewer than 8 near-pro track days a year.
03-26-2019, 11:21 AM
#56
Rennlist Member
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: West Vancouver and San Francisco
Posts: 4,178
Received 1,139 Likes
on
560 Posts
Why? What's so wrong with wanting to not have to wear a dust mask when changing brake pads between track sessions or wanting not to refinish wheels every 2-3 years because brake dust baked-in to the point it cannot be removed? Toxic corrosive dust annoys bad-asses too. I still track irons because I'm cheap, but I'd rather use ceramics.
03-26-2019, 11:31 AM
#57
Porsche, in a grand marketing scheme, has managed to sell inferior brakes at a higher price and only the astute few on RL have figured this out. Well done.
Although, next time, may I advise you keep this nugget of clarity to yourself so the rest of us dum dums who like yellow, like their car to be clean, and like expensive stuff can continue to live their lives in pride.
Although, next time, may I advise you keep this nugget of clarity to yourself so the rest of us dum dums who like yellow, like their car to be clean, and like expensive stuff can continue to live their lives in pride.
03-26-2019, 11:38 AM
#58
Burning Brakes
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Pensacola, Florida
Posts: 1,176
Likes: 0
Received 237 Likes
on
142 Posts
Is that why Porsche always uses a PCCB car when they want to turn a fast lap time in one of their models? Or why many of their factory race drivers swear by the PCCBs, as do guys like Randy Pobst? Because they want to look cool?
The only downside to PCCB is cost. Always kinda funny hearing folks complain about the cost of PCCB when they spent thousands wrapping their steering tunnel in leather, lighting the doorjam, changing the color of stitching on their leather coated dashboard, etc.
The only downside to PCCB is cost. Always kinda funny hearing folks complain about the cost of PCCB when they spent thousands wrapping their steering tunnel in leather, lighting the doorjam, changing the color of stitching on their leather coated dashboard, etc.
03-26-2019, 01:29 PM
#60
Yep. A faster lap time impresses potential and current owners and makes them want to spend the extra for PCCB even though they will make no different in their ownership. on the track or street. I suspect Randy Pobst could outrun all of us on this forum with iron rotors even if we had PCCB. .
Maybe he thinks he looks cool during his videos.
