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Rose/Heim Joint Longevity

 
Old 03-20-2019, 04:57 PM
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Default Rose/Heim Joint Longevity

With the prospect of an RS on my horizon, I looked into Rose/Heim joints. Seems like when added to a car as an aftermarket solution, they can lead to problems. Many say that on anything but a dedicated track car, they are troublesome. They are noisy and you have to maintain them with dedication. Some even report that they need to be replaced every few hundred miles. If dirt gets into them, it acts as an abrasive and will degrade the joint.

Any issues with how Porsche has implemented them into the RS? Are there boots over them or are they exposed to the elements? Do they require any special maintenance? My car will not be a garage queen.
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Old 03-20-2019, 06:56 PM
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I was going to leave this question to someone with a new RS to reply. But since nobody chimed in, I'll give you my experiences with spherical bearings. I think they're great, but they're not all created equally. The ones Porsche uses are especially good. I had Porsche Motorsports lower control arms (from 991 Cup) with integral heim joints on the front of my GT4 and they were always quiet and required no maintenance for the year I had them. I'm told that lesser quality spherical bearings in some aftermarket parts are more prone to noise and failure (the guy who installed my parts said they'd last several times as long as aftermarket versions).

I also have all solid bearings on my 73 911 (no rubber in the suspension) and there has been very little compromise as far as noise, lifespan, and maintenance requirements - well worth the upgrade and nothing to be particularly concerned about with the RS (yes, they may be a bit louder but you'll be happy for their precision).
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Old 03-20-2019, 07:02 PM
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Had them on a Cobra for 11 years. They can creak a little, but no issues in 25,000 miles.


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Old 03-20-2019, 07:37 PM
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Porsche uses weather sealed and greased ball joints in their GT cars. Such joints last 10s of thousands of miles even with regular track abuse. I've got sealed ball joints with no perceptible play, despite 100k miles of mixed heavy track and tarmac rally use.

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Old 03-20-2019, 07:43 PM
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Originally Posted by mlhj83 View Post
Porsche uses weather sealed and greased ball joints in their GT cars. Such joints last 10s of thousands of miles even with regular track abuse. I've got sealed ball joints with no perceptible play, despite 100k miles of mixed heavy track and tarmac rally use.
Not talking about ball joints. A Rose/Heim joint is something different. The GT3, for example, uses ball joints. The RS uses Rose joints (same as a Heim joint).
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Old 03-20-2019, 07:44 PM
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Originally Posted by FourT6and2 View Post
Not talking about ball joints. A Rose/Heim joint is something different. The GT3, for example, uses ball joints. The RS uses Rose joints (same as a Heim joint).
The GT3/2 RS uses ball joints not exposed rose joints.
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Old 03-20-2019, 07:47 PM
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Originally Posted by GrantG View Post
(the guy who installed my parts said they'd last several times as long as aftermarket versions.
This is kinda what I'm asking about. Some aftermarket versions need to be replaced after 300 miles. So what is "several times longer" than that? I know many people never put more than 5,000 miles on their Porsche GT cars, which is a travesty. So maybe there isn't enough data on this, especially with a relatively new car such as the .2 RS?
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Old 03-20-2019, 07:50 PM
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Originally Posted by FourT6and2 View Post
This is kinda what I'm asking about. Some aftermarket versions need to be replaced after 300 miles. So what is "several times longer" than that? I know many people never put more than 5,000 miles on their Porsche GT cars, which is a travesty. So maybe there isn't enough data on this, especially with a relatively new car such as the .2 RS?
I donĺt think any unit that is halfway decent would fail in 300 miles, unless subjected to severe abuse (Baja 1000 or similar). Factory units should be good for 5-figures of miles with normal use.
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Old 03-20-2019, 07:52 PM
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I assure you they are sealed ball joints not exposed rose joints (journalists have got it wrong). Here's mine:







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Old 03-20-2019, 07:54 PM
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Even Porsche said so:



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Old 03-20-2019, 07:57 PM
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Interesting. This is also direct form Porsche's website:
"In the new GT3 RS there are more rose joints on the suspension compared to the previous model. In fact, only one link (for the rear axle steering) doesn’t have a rose joint now..."

Maybe something is getting lost in translation between what Porsche considers a ball joint vs rubber bushing vs Heim/Rose/rod-end joint?

Even the photo you posted makes it sound like the RS has something different compared to the regular GT3. "All suspension joints have been replaced by ball joints." Well... they were ball joints before. So what have they been replaced by?
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Old 03-20-2019, 08:01 PM
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Ok the car's tech specs page on Porsche.com says "all suspension mounts ball-jointed." So I guess that's that. No rose joints. So there's no difference between the RS's suspension joints/mounts and the GT3's?
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Old 03-20-2019, 08:02 PM
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Originally Posted by FourT6and2 View Post
Interesting. This is also direct form Porsche's website:
"In the new GT3 RS there are more rose joints on the suspension compared to the previous model. In fact, only one link (for the rear axle steering) doesn’t have a rose joint now..."

Maybe something is getting lost in translation between what Porsche considers a ball joint vs rubber bushing vs Heim/Rose/rod-end joint?
Regardless of literature, the proof is in the examination of all the joints, and they are all weather-sealed and greased ball joints. Not the exposed rose joints we see in racing cars or in the after market. Reason being, weather-sealed and greased ball joints are heavier and cost more, which are both unnecessary for racing use.

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Old 03-20-2019, 08:03 PM
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Originally Posted by FourT6and2 View Post
Ok the car's tech specs page on Porsche.com says "all suspension mounts ball-jointed." So I guess that's that. No rose joints. So there's no difference between the RS's suspension joints/mounts and the GT3's?
Based on my examination, the GT3 has a mixture of rubber bushes and weather sealed ball-joints, whereas the RS has no rubber bushes. Put your GT3 on a ramp and have a look, you'll immediately see which are rubber bushes and which are sealed ball joints.

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Old 03-20-2019, 08:04 PM
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Originally Posted by mlhj83 View Post
Regardless of literature, the proof is in the examination of all the joints, and they are all weather-sealed and greased ball joints. No the exposed rose joints we see in racing cars or in the after market. Reason being, weather-sealed and greased ball joints are heavier and cost more, which are both unnecessary for racing use.
Right, the pictures are the proof. So why do the tech specs for the RS say "all suspension mounts ball-joined" whereas the GT3 does not? And what does Porsche mean when they say, "all suspension joints have been REPLACED with ball joints" in the RS models? What are they in the GT3 models?
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