Owner's Review: 911R vs. 991.2 GT3 (Manual)
03-18-2019, 11:02 PM
#61
Addict
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My pleasure, but keep in mind that each car’s steering tuning has to work with the different suspension setups on each car. So, it’s not as easy as using the other car’s steering software (unless you also use the other car’s suspension hardware and alignment - The R is significantly softer).
03-18-2019, 11:03 PM
#62
I corrected my post from GT3 Touring to GT3 Manual. I owned a 991.2 GT3 PDK and sold it as I now have my newer 991.2 GT3RS.
Yes that is correct that the 991.2 GT3 Touring is not the same as the GT3 Manual (winged) simply because of the wing? Is it because of the "Wing" and nothing else? Wow what a HUGE difference that may be.
Anyway, if you are happy with your GT3 Touring, please knock your socks off and more power to you and your GT3 Touring.
Drive safe,
GT3RS-Fan1
Yes that is correct that the 991.2 GT3 Touring is not the same as the GT3 Manual (winged) simply because of the wing? Is it because of the "Wing" and nothing else? Wow what a HUGE difference that may be.
Anyway, if you are happy with your GT3 Touring, please knock your socks off and more power to you and your GT3 Touring.
Drive safe,
GT3RS-Fan1
03-19-2019, 12:23 AM
#63
Three Wheelin'
A few of the reasons why I say I will keep my 911R is because of many significant traits the 911R have;
1.) First of, how the car handles. It has SMF (Single Mass Flywheel) which makes the engine spool up faster than any of my naturally aspirated cars. It has the same engine as that of my former 991.1 GT3RS but having SMF makes a big difference spooling up the engine. When your foot is off the clutch, you can hear the gear lash due to its lightened SMF.
2.) Second, noise level is higher simply because of less insulation. Car feels much lighter. Once inside the cabin you can practically hear engine components in action (e.g., throttle, clutch engagement). You'll practically hear almost all noises, pebbles included hitting the undercarriage. On a quiet road on a stand still, you'll hear throttle movement, engine injectors. Car feels very light and effortless in getting the rear end come out.
3.) Third, six-speed transmission. Other cars at the time with my 911R that are also stick shift and also naturally aspirated were the 2016 GT4 and the 2017 Viper ACR. 911R have perfected the calibration of the clutch, shifting the transmission, and gas pedal, making it an ideal synchronization of the three with precision harmony. Driver engagement is much more fun when you're shifting your own gear.
In my opinion, Porsche created a masterpiece if not an outstanding car in the 911R that enhances driver engagement. In two words, a Fun Car! It is not the fastest, not the most expensive (mine is a $215K car), but it is the car that provides miles of smiles on my face. Having said all of these, there was no need for me to down play other Porsche models nor other brand.
As the saying goes, "Different Strokes for Different Folks." The 911R tickles my fancy.
Drive safe,
GT3RS-Fan1
But that’s the thing. It doesn’t matter whether I’m happy with my Touring or not. It’s regarding making an absolute statement and whether there’s any significant difference. I’ve never claimed a Touring is a huge difference between a Touring or wing. Some people claim there’s a significant difference between a 911R and Touring (Regarding performance and aside from market price now). The question is whether that comparison is actually valid, and to what degree. To me, it’s not significant difference (based on facts and experimental results). Please tell me why it is according to you? Please tell me why the difference is significant to you. But first you must understand the definitions (not regarding the general public nor perceived ownership experience) . Otherwise it’s pure personal emotion (because they own a 911R), biased opinion, and speculation...
1.) First of, how the car handles. It has SMF (Single Mass Flywheel) which makes the engine spool up faster than any of my naturally aspirated cars. It has the same engine as that of my former 991.1 GT3RS but having SMF makes a big difference spooling up the engine. When your foot is off the clutch, you can hear the gear lash due to its lightened SMF.
2.) Second, noise level is higher simply because of less insulation. Car feels much lighter. Once inside the cabin you can practically hear engine components in action (e.g., throttle, clutch engagement). You'll practically hear almost all noises, pebbles included hitting the undercarriage. On a quiet road on a stand still, you'll hear throttle movement, engine injectors. Car feels very light and effortless in getting the rear end come out.
3.) Third, six-speed transmission. Other cars at the time with my 911R that are also stick shift and also naturally aspirated were the 2016 GT4 and the 2017 Viper ACR. 911R have perfected the calibration of the clutch, shifting the transmission, and gas pedal, making it an ideal synchronization of the three with precision harmony. Driver engagement is much more fun when you're shifting your own gear.
In my opinion, Porsche created a masterpiece if not an outstanding car in the 911R that enhances driver engagement. In two words, a Fun Car! It is not the fastest, not the most expensive (mine is a $215K car), but it is the car that provides miles of smiles on my face. Having said all of these, there was no need for me to down play other Porsche models nor other brand.
As the saying goes, "Different Strokes for Different Folks." The 911R tickles my fancy.
Drive safe,
GT3RS-Fan1
But that’s the thing. It doesn’t matter whether I’m happy with my Touring or not. It’s regarding making an absolute statement and whether there’s any significant difference. I’ve never claimed a Touring is a huge difference between a Touring or wing. Some people claim there’s a significant difference between a 911R and Touring (Regarding performance and aside from market price now). The question is whether that comparison is actually valid, and to what degree. To me, it’s not significant difference (based on facts and experimental results). Please tell me why it is according to you? Please tell me why the difference is significant to you. But first you must understand the definitions (not regarding the general public nor perceived ownership experience) . Otherwise it’s pure personal emotion (because they own a 911R), biased opinion, and speculation...
03-19-2019, 12:23 AM
#64
Three Wheelin'
If a touring were tested the "Sound" category would need to be adjusted. "Sound" is #2 to "Engine" and one of the most important factors when calculating "feel". From what most have said the Touring has more engine sound than the winged and would probably be a toss up with the R if not better. Top 2 could go to touring if a touring were actually tested. Engine and Sound both better in the touring......are those categories important?
Last edited by cajerseyboy; 03-19-2019 at 12:40 AM.
03-19-2019, 12:47 AM
#65
Drifting
This is a pretty awesome video of the 911 R. The 991.2 GT3 (winged or Touring) would have been right at home in this video. To my ears, the R and the 991.2 GT3 sound very similar from the outside. Perhaps from the inside, the sound (both in quantity and quality) is distinctly different between with Touring and the R but I'll leave that qualification and quantification to those who have been inside of both.
03-19-2019, 02:22 AM
#66
Race Car
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1 Sound discussion is useless you can modify the sound with few bucks in exhaust note and insulation
2 Suspensions and so the both Touring R electric steering
can be modified with no drama but from the number of modified Touring (any??) no one is really interested
3 Engine we know the story
4 notchier gearbox , i am sure if felt needed one can do everything as easy as for suspensions mods
the only point that is really "different" is the single mass fly wheel which is not suggested to be installed on the Touring
No one said in this thread but SMFW is faster revving but its cons is faster loosing revs which means no supplesse driving and i find the Touring capability in eatining miles and miles superior than any 911 all time GTx, it s in fact a Touring with 500hp!
if i have to sacrifice the Touriing qualities i'd go for 997 or past 911s instead of the R,
eventhough there are R on sale, not so difficult to get one if really wanted but to me the R with SMFW vs a Touring is not worth the delta price and lack of the new engine as well as the lack in long distance pleasure driving make the Touring my choice
2 Suspensions and so the both Touring R electric steering
can be modified with no drama but from the number of modified Touring (any??) no one is really interested
3 Engine we know the story
4 notchier gearbox , i am sure if felt needed one can do everything as easy as for suspensions mods
the only point that is really "different" is the single mass fly wheel which is not suggested to be installed on the Touring
No one said in this thread but SMFW is faster revving but its cons is faster loosing revs which means no supplesse driving and i find the Touring capability in eatining miles and miles superior than any 911 all time GTx, it s in fact a Touring with 500hp!
if i have to sacrifice the Touriing qualities i'd go for 997 or past 911s instead of the R,
eventhough there are R on sale, not so difficult to get one if really wanted but to me the R with SMFW vs a Touring is not worth the delta price and lack of the new engine as well as the lack in long distance pleasure driving make the Touring my choice
Last edited by fxz; 03-19-2019 at 04:18 AM.
03-19-2019, 02:49 AM
#67
GT3 player par excellence
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guys, buy what you like drive what you like and write what you want. b/c it's always wrong....
good or bad depends on what you like, ur driving experience, where you drive, type of road you drive on....
and how old you are
10 years ago, I drove 996 cup car (a real one, not home made) on the bay bridge to work in my suit, I was the hot sh*t
I also drove 997 cup car on surface street and my GT4CS as well...
now old and frail, I wont do that again.
I also like slower and slower cars....
but yes, I do know how to drive...
furthermore some ppl discuss "value".
well, if you paid $500k for R vs $200k for touring, perhaps touring is the BETTER CAR
but many bought R as msrp. so it's harder to compare
is 4.0 better than 3.8. I paid 189k for my brand new 4.0
and my 3.8 brand new was 150 or so... yes the 4.0 is better
but if 3.8 at todays' $200, and 4.0 at todays $500... maybe I would buy 3.8.
you see. so many variables.
when confused, must buy more.
when you run out of room, get a bigger warehouse. then add lifts to it.
.... oh, that's like me... don't do that....
03-19-2019, 05:20 AM
#69
Rennlist Member
Originally Posted by NA430GTS
If a touring were tested the "Sound" category would need to be adjusted. "Sound" is #2 to "Engine" and one of the most important factors when calculating "feel". From what most have said the Touring has more engine sound than the winged and would probably be a toss up with the R if not better. Top 2 could go to touring if a touring were actually tested. Engine and Sound both better in the touring......are those categories important?
03-19-2019, 11:47 AM
#70
Rennlist Member
A few of the reasons why I say I will keep my 911R is because of many significant traits the 911R have;
1.) First of, how the car handles. It has SMF (Single Mass Flywheel) which makes the engine spool up faster than any of my naturally aspirated cars. It has the same engine as that of my former 991.1 GT3RS but having SMF makes a big difference spooling up the engine. When your foot is off the clutch, you can hear the gear lash due to its lightened SMF.:
Drive safe,
GT3RS-Fan1
1.) First of, how the car handles. It has SMF (Single Mass Flywheel) which makes the engine spool up faster than any of my naturally aspirated cars. It has the same engine as that of my former 991.1 GT3RS but having SMF makes a big difference spooling up the engine. When your foot is off the clutch, you can hear the gear lash due to its lightened SMF.:
Drive safe,
GT3RS-Fan1
03-19-2019, 12:08 PM
#71
Drifting
Thread Starter
Exactly. I have driven both versions and I felt no difference between the GT3 and the touring.
I've driven a touring and winged Gt3 back to back and noticed one difference and one difference only: the wing. Oh, right, and the interior. Let's not forget: it is a 991.2 Gt3 minus a wing and some interior differences. I laugh when I see the touring guys talk about the R guys having placebo effect!
03-19-2019, 12:15 PM
#72
Drifting
Thread Starter
Just a tad over 2000 miles on the GT3. So please educate us, what is the difference between a wing version vs. the touring? I drove my friend’s 150 miles and couldn’t tell the difference?? Sounds the same, drives the same, shifts the same. All parts are sourced from the same suppliers. All spec are the same.
As for what you wrote on the 4.0 not worth the premium over the 3.8, I rest my case. That’s like saying the premium on the GT3 over the standard 911 is not worth it. Different strokes for different folks.
4 months of ownership, but how many miles did you drive the Touring? None because it was a wing GT3. Regardless, how may miles?
I can tell in the first 30 seconds whether I want a car or not, same like when meeting a woman...
Can’t really say where I drove, but let’s just say I’ve learned to do whatever I want as long as I don’t get caught. So let’s just say it was in Mexico and I have great Mexican lawyers
I love the 4.0 997.2 RS. Passed on an 1800 miles specimens for $395k six months ago. Is it an awesome car? Hell yeah. Is it worth the $395k (great deal under market price? No, not to me, so I passed). At the end, the only thing it corrected over the regular 997.2 RS was .2 displacement increase and the power dip at 5.5k rpm. Nothing a few mods can’t correct. Is that worth $200k over the the 997.2 3.8RS? Not really, but people can do whatever they want with their money. I get it, some people spend $1000 like its $10, others $1m like it’s $10k. I love that. Congrats.
As for what you wrote on the 4.0 not worth the premium over the 3.8, I rest my case. That’s like saying the premium on the GT3 over the standard 911 is not worth it. Different strokes for different folks.
4 months of ownership, but how many miles did you drive the Touring? None because it was a wing GT3. Regardless, how may miles?
I can tell in the first 30 seconds whether I want a car or not, same like when meeting a woman...
Can’t really say where I drove, but let’s just say I’ve learned to do whatever I want as long as I don’t get caught. So let’s just say it was in Mexico and I have great Mexican lawyers
I love the 4.0 997.2 RS. Passed on an 1800 miles specimens for $395k six months ago. Is it an awesome car? Hell yeah. Is it worth the $395k (great deal under market price? No, not to me, so I passed). At the end, the only thing it corrected over the regular 997.2 RS was .2 displacement increase and the power dip at 5.5k rpm. Nothing a few mods can’t correct. Is that worth $200k over the the 997.2 3.8RS? Not really, but people can do whatever they want with their money. I get it, some people spend $1000 like its $10, others $1m like it’s $10k. I love that. Congrats.
03-19-2019, 12:59 PM
#74
SJW, a Carin' kinda guy
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Re: touring v. wing
Chris3968 stated that he thought the touring was louder at speed than the wing. I assume because of the intake set up. I have not driven both to know.
Chris3968 stated that he thought the touring was louder at speed than the wing. I assume because of the intake set up. I have not driven both to know.
03-19-2019, 01:00 PM
#75
Rennlist Member
Nick - the less interactive system (with poorer feel and feedback) is a byproduct of a transition from Hydraulic power steering to Electric power steering. It was not done to dumb down the steering (that was an unintended consequence).
They went to electric steering with all the 991 models from the 997's hydraulic steering for a few main reasons:
1. It is easier to employ rear wheel steering when both axles are electrically steered.
2. It is easier to employ the Start/Stop system or hybrid/electric drive with electric steering (can still steer on battery power while the engine is not running at a red light)
3. It is cheaper and lighter than hydraulic and draws no engine power
Porsche could have very easily enjoyed most of the benefits of electric with the improved steering feel of hydraulic by doing what they have done and continue to do with all of the GT3R, Cup, and RSR race cars by having a hydraulic steering rack run by a hydraulic pump that is spun by an electric motor, rather than from a belt on the crankshaft. Why would Porsche choose to use this heavier more complicated system on their competition cars, if it didn't have some inherent advantage (better feel). McLaren does this with all of their cars - Porsche chose to save the money instead (forgivable with Boxster/Cayman/Carrera, but not with GT products).
Perhaps some day I'll give you a ride in my nearly 50 year old dinosaur and you can judge for yourself if it is lacking in excitement, compared to our newer models
They went to electric steering with all the 991 models from the 997's hydraulic steering for a few main reasons:
1. It is easier to employ rear wheel steering when both axles are electrically steered.
2. It is easier to employ the Start/Stop system or hybrid/electric drive with electric steering (can still steer on battery power while the engine is not running at a red light)
3. It is cheaper and lighter than hydraulic and draws no engine power
Porsche could have very easily enjoyed most of the benefits of electric with the improved steering feel of hydraulic by doing what they have done and continue to do with all of the GT3R, Cup, and RSR race cars by having a hydraulic steering rack run by a hydraulic pump that is spun by an electric motor, rather than from a belt on the crankshaft. Why would Porsche choose to use this heavier more complicated system on their competition cars, if it didn't have some inherent advantage (better feel). McLaren does this with all of their cars - Porsche chose to save the money instead (forgivable with Boxster/Cayman/Carrera, but not with GT products).
Perhaps some day I'll give you a ride in my nearly 50 year old dinosaur and you can judge for yourself if it is lacking in excitement, compared to our newer models
I suspect this entire discussion is subjective. it's just a matter of preference.
