Bruce R

Per Porsche literature the Touring hits 198 and the winged version 197. (see page page 25 of hard cover sales brochure) That would make the Touring more efficient - assuming we are talking straight line speed and not down force.

GrantG

The PDK GT3 goes 197, but Manual GT3 goes 198. According to porsche.com, the Touring is slightly slower.

WernerE

My Touring is louder than I expected, not in a bad way (but ask me later post-1,000 road trip). Seems that the Touring's spoiler allows more noise when up, whereas the fixed-winged GT3 acts as a baffle.

I need to drive an R in order to agree or disagree with the OP, although I will take a better motor over other subtle preferences stated by the OP. I missed buying a 911R last September in a private sale because the owner decided to send it to Monterey auction, only to net a lower amount after fees.

Limited production runs don't automatically confer "special," but from most accounts by owners, the 911R seems to fit the bill. Though sometimes, I feel the Porsche cognoscenti loves to pick a particularly good 911 example and pontificate w/lavish praise to no end.

unotaz

Look, at the end of the day, we vote with our wallet. The CGT wasn't loved back in the days either. Some Porsche cars takes a lot of seat time for people to realize just how truly special these cars are. Enjoy your Touring and pick up a 911R when the price is right.

Petevb

That's likely a mistake.
Porsche's technical datasheets on their press site show the following top speeds:
Touring 316 kph
PDK 318 kph
Wing manual 320 kph
911R 323 kph

They also list the Touring's CD as .35, the wing's as .33 and the R as .32.

No mention of downforce on those sheets unfortunately, but we know the R isn't making much. This is corroborated by the experience of a some here at higher autobahn speeds.

isv

That's a very fair point. Sometimes it seems the amount of praise a car gets is in direct proportion to what it's prices are doing. As unotaz mentioned, just look at the cgt. It strikes me as quite funny how so many seem to rave about the car now when it definitely wasn't the flavour of the month about 6-7 years ago when it seemed only a hardcore bunch of nutcases were adamant it was actually a brilliant car. And actually the same would be true but in reverse about the R with prices coming off the initial highs and the amount of general sour grapes being thrown at it now.

unotaz

Correct. Above 250km/h, it takes a steady hand in the R

hellboy_mcqueen

R has uplift front axle, which makes it nervous with in Autobahn with that steering.
Sport Auto had some numbers and i have posted that before, dont remember which topic was that.

sunnyr

Indeed, price being a factor in enjoyment of something, is a real biological thing -

Why expensive wine appears to taste better: It's the price tag - https://www.sciencedaily.com/release...0814092949.htm

Porsch

Quote:

Originally Posted by sechsgang

at the end fo the day, the rare and number plated car will always be the long term winner.

Quote:

Originally Posted by WernerE

Limited production runs don't automatically confer "special," but from most accounts by owners, the 911R seems to fit the bill. Though sometimes, I feel the Porsche cognoscenti loves to pick a particularly good 911 example and pontificate w/lavish praise to no end.

very true. 911 40th anniversary did not sell well and still can be had for a song. 2012 911 black edition with #d plate was a joke. 991 carrera s endurance racing edition was a catastrophe. i'm certainly not putting the R in the same category but these were some immediate examples that came to mind. i still love the R but it will be interesting to see what happens to the market for it over time. prices sky-rocketed when it first came out. VIPs and dealers milked it, played their usual games. but prices have come so far down. and then of course the GT3 Touring with newer/better engine came along. somewhere jethro bovingdon is chuckling.

+1

Suitcase

The CGT may a better car now than it was when introduced because of contemporary tire technology. At he time I could never get enough heat in the tires (on the street) to get them to stick. The CGT is not light and I never felt very confident driving hard. This not only true of the CGT but also other cars that were overpowered in automotive history such as a 427 Cobra. I've been told by racers of the day that they preferred the lighter and less powered 289 Comp version of the car because tire technology couldn't exploit the superior power of the car. Tires (for the street) have come a long way in the past 15 years.

The R situation is different. In 2014 I was told "we can't sell a car without a PDK and sunroof." However, once all (most) sports cars had a semi-automatic gearbox, there was a segment of enthusiasts that wanted to continue driving manual cars regardless of lap times. Porsche made a decision, probably in '08 or '09, that the next generation GT3 (following the race version of the car) would be only available as a PDK. In fact, I was also told that the 991 would be the last MT Porsche. But many enthusiasts and long standing customers still wanted a GT3 performance with a MT. It wasn't just about lap times. If the first generation 991 GT3 didn't catch fire, I don't think there would have been a 911R, and the 991 GT3 MT. Porsche would most likely have used the GT3 motor for the RS. But when they had to re-think the motor (because of the fire issues) I believe it offered an opportunity to reconfigure the motor for a MT. Now AP had a motor to create a "purist" car. And they seriously underestimated their audience. Remember, only a few years earlier there was no line at the door for the 997.2 RS 4.0. and there were only 600 cars! So by the time the public became aware of AP's purist car there was a backlog lined more than anyone could have predicted. Also think about the economy in 2010 v. 2015. At first they were only going to make 600 R's. We all know what happened. As of recent, meaning the last 4 or 5 weeks, R prices are going up. There are a number of "cheap" cars out there with a non-factory installed LWFW. I suspect if the work is done well the car will perform identically to the factory installed option. But you need to get a deal on it. I keep reading that the motor in the GT3 is "better" than the R. I understand it revs higher. But at great risk I'm not sure I agree. I know of no R owner, that wasn't a flipper, willing to trade their R for a GT3.

And a question / comment regarding front axle lift. Unless you have a particular (garage) situation the R doesn't need it. My cars don't have it. And there is nowhere for me to go 200 mph. But I'm curious about the comments on how if may effect high speed stability. This is the first time I've heard this. Anyone out there?

Jrtaylor9

The R and CGT are obviously very different cars. Both great cars for different reasons. I get what ISV is saying; different cars get more or less respect at different times in the cycle and sometimes the trajectory of their value helps or hinders them as much as driving characteristics.

I think 4-5 weeks is near impossible to glean much out of the price trend of a particular car (unless maybe the move is massive), but i think the R will do just fine over the long haul. And so will the CGT for that matter.

isv

I fully agree with everything you say about tyres as the old PS2 on the cgt was a bit of a livewire when cold... but I don't believe that the values (and imo seemingly in direct proportion the praise) the cgt is getting now are in any way related to the much better (or at least much more stable) driving experience the supersport tyres provide.

CAlexio

I did miss the flat-upshifting function in the R at road atlanta this weekend, which the GT3 has. Most people don't track so doesn' matter but really helps when you're focused on your lines and extracting most out of an engine without having to worry about balancing throttle/clutch. Again, minor point but useful if tracking against other Porsche GT cars (also known as value-thread racing)
Attachment 1303547

destaccado

So basically, the R is a great car when you're limited to putting around on America's ****ty roads and speed limits but when you have the opportunity to open it up on beautifully maintained roads and autobahns with no speed limit the superior motor and aerodynamics of the Touring put it over the top.

Don't get me wrong. I like the carbon shifter on the R, the door pulls vs the handle, and the black trim on the radio instead of the chrome. Matter of fact I like them so much I paid a not insignificant amount of money to Exclusive to have those issues on my car fixed. I also prefer the grille between the rear taillights of the R and couldn't fix that.

However, the biggest thrills I get driving my car are at 250 kmph + ...supposedly the space where the R sucks.

Comparing the CGT to the R for value is a laughable assertion. There will never be another CGT. There's already a better "R"