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Owner's Review: 911R vs. 991.2 GT3 (Manual)

 
Old 03-18-2019, 07:11 PM
  #46  
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Originally Posted by unotaz View Post
Porsche is not the only company doing this. Which car do you think is the better driver's car? F40 or the Enzo?

Which car do you think sound better? The 458 Speciale or the 488 Pista?

We live in a world with ever-changing emission standard and safety regulations. Manufacturers don't want to make an inferior car in terms of feel, feedback and emotion, but they are also the victim of the rules and regulations.

991.2 GT3/RS sound better than the 997.2 GT3/RS imo.
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Old 03-18-2019, 07:40 PM
  #47  
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Originally Posted by unotaz View Post
Absolutely. Any of the 997 generation GT cars has better steering feel than my 911R
I need to be educated. Why would Porsche make the latest models less interactive steering wise than the old models? I don't believe there are any government regulations or safety concerns involving steering. Why would Porsche dumb it down?

Look I know some are wedded to the old Porsche's because they grew up with them. Thus their memories are imbued with excitement, passion and the experience. It's tough to let go a memory of that sort. It's part of you. But if you are objective, you'll soon recognize that the dinosaurs though fun to drive are no where near the excitement that can be generated by a modern Porsche.

To each is own.
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Old 03-18-2019, 07:59 PM
  #48  
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While there’s 911R owners that always claim how great the car is, having driven it (although brief 40 minutes, but aggressively), and having driven my Touring for nearly 6000 miles including at the track, msrp vs msrp, I’d still get the Touring. SMFW is nice, but not a dealbreaker. Perhaps it can retrofit it in the future, but don’t really care much for it. I much rather the feel of the new engine, it’s not the 9k rpm alone. I love my cars with stiff suspension, so I don’t care about comfort like the 911R may offer. Don’t care about a limited number plaque nor amount of miles driven. Steering is still excellent on the 991.2 GT3, and precise (this is not my first GT3). I drive too fast to notice any rws algorithm differences. I’ve adapted to the new lighter clutch vs the 997, which I think is perfect for the new engine (the 911R felt light like the new 991.2 GT3). Alll these digital opinions are worthless though. Drive the cars, and find out what you really like; hell pay the premium if you really don’t want a 911R. Regardless, to me, the 911R is not worth any premium over a Touring. I see it below the Touring as far as driving the experience goes. If you’re looking to feel special for personal reasons, that’s a whole other story...
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Old 03-18-2019, 09:24 PM
  #49  
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40 mins is definitely a lot of seat time for any car

I waited 4 months of ownership and many hours of seat time on my GT3 before writing my review.

As to you ďdrive too fast to notice any rws algorithm differencesĒ, I guess you take all of your corners at above 62mph then! Tell me where you drive and I want to go check out this magical place where every corner is over 62mph

I remember when the 997 GT3RS 4.0 first came out, a lot of people were bashing it for being overpriced and not worth the $$$ difference compared to the 3.8. Same thing happened to the 918 Spyder, all the nay sayers on RL dismissed it as well.


Originally Posted by GT3 View Post
While thereís 911R owners that always claim how great the car is, having driven it (although brief 40 minutes, but aggressively), and having driven my Touring for nearly 6000 miles including at the track, msrp vs msrp, Iíd still get the Touring. SMFW is nice, but not a dealbreaker. Perhaps it can retrofit it in the future, but donít really care much for it. I much rather the feel of the new engine, itís not the 9k rpm alone. I love my cars with stiff suspension, so I donít care about comfort like the 911R may offer. Donít care about a limited number plaque nor amount of miles driven. Steering is still excellent on the 991.2 GT3, and precise (this is not my first GT3). I drive too fast to notice any rws algorithm differences. Iíve adapted to the new lighter clutch vs the 997, which I think is perfect for the new engine (the 911R felt light like the new 991.2 GT3). Alll these digital opinions are worthless though. Drive the cars, and find out what you really like; hell pay the premium if you really donít want a 911R. Regardless, to me, the 911R is not worth any premium over a Touring. I see it below the Touring as far as driving the experience goes. If youíre looking to feel special for personal reasons, thatís a whole other story...
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Old 03-18-2019, 09:28 PM
  #50  
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Electric steering vs hydraulic steering. Why? Lower consumption with the electric steering and the future integration with the upcoming hybrid system in the 911.

I can wholehearted tell you, the best electric steering system on the market today pales in comparison to hydraulic ones.

Originally Posted by Nick View Post
I need to be educated. Why would Porsche make the latest models less interactive steering wise than the old models? I don't believe there are any government regulations or safety concerns involving steering. Why would Porsche dumb it down?
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Old 03-18-2019, 09:30 PM
  #51  
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Originally Posted by Nick View Post
I need to be educated. Why would Porsche make the latest models less interactive steering wise than the old models? I don't believe there are any government regulations or safety concerns involving steering. Why would Porsche dumb it down?
Nick - the less interactive system (with poorer feel and feedback) is a byproduct of a transition from Hydraulic power steering to Electric power steering. It was not done to dumb down the steering (that was an unintended consequence).

They went to electric steering with all the 991 models from the 997's hydraulic steering for a few main reasons:
1. It is easier to employ rear wheel steering when both axles are electrically steered.
2. It is easier to employ the Start/Stop system or hybrid/electric drive with electric steering (can still steer on battery power while the engine is not running at a red light)
3. It is cheaper and lighter than hydraulic and draws no engine power

Porsche could have very easily enjoyed most of the benefits of electric with the improved steering feel of hydraulic by doing what they have done and continue to do with all of the GT3R, Cup, and RSR race cars by having a hydraulic steering rack run by a hydraulic pump that is spun by an electric motor, rather than from a belt on the crankshaft. Why would Porsche choose to use this heavier more complicated system on their competition cars, if it didn't have some inherent advantage (better feel). McLaren does this with all of their cars - Porsche chose to save the money instead (forgivable with Boxster/Cayman/Carrera, but not with GT products).

Perhaps some day I'll give you a ride in my nearly 50 year old dinosaur and you can judge for yourself if it is lacking in excitement, compared to our newer models
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Old 03-18-2019, 09:37 PM
  #52  
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So much of the R vs GT3 debate is subjective. Objectively, the 991.2 GT3 has the superior engine. Objectively, the 911 R is lighter and much rarer than the 991.2 GT3 (991 vs thousands). The exterior differences between the cars are subtle and purely subjective as to which is better looking. Both have rear axle steering, both (supposedly) have the exact same gear box. Not sure why the GT department would make the steering better in the R than the 991.2 GT3? Is there any proof that different internals were used for the electric steering in the R versus the 991.2 GT3 or is this perhaps just a subjective opinion as well? The R also has the single mass flywheel option which sets it apart from the GT3. If I had the chance to buy an R when it came out, would I have? Absolutely! And would I sell it to get a GT3 Touring? Nope. But like many here, I had zero chance in getting an R allocation and I am not willing to pay double or more of the sticker price for the opportunity to buy one when I can spec a brand new PTS GT3 Touring to my exact specs for half the price. The R vs Touring debate is a fun one, right up there with PDK vs Manual but at the end of the day, there is no right or wrong answer, just personal preference.
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Old 03-18-2019, 09:47 PM
  #53  
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Originally Posted by Porsche911GTS'16 View Post
Not sure why the GT department would make the steering better in the R than the 991.2 GT3? Is there any proof that different internals were used for the electric steering in the R versus the 991.2 GT3 or is this perhaps just a subjective opinion as well?
I believe the hardware is identical, but different software tuning was used for the rear steering on each to make the R more nimble and tossable on the road and the GT3 more stable and confidence inspiring on a race track.
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Old 03-18-2019, 10:03 PM
  #54  
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Originally Posted by GT3 View Post
While there’s 911R owners that always claim how great the car is, having driven it (although brief 40 minutes, but aggressively), and having driven my Touring for nearly 6000 miles including at the track, msrp vs msrp, I’d still get the Touring. SMFW is nice, but not a dealbreaker. Perhaps it can retrofit it in the future, but don’t really care much for it. I much rather the feel of the new engine, it’s not the 9k rpm alone. I love my cars with stiff suspension, so I don’t care about comfort like the 911R may offer. Don’t care about a limited number plaque nor amount of miles driven. Steering is still excellent on the 991.2 GT3, and precise (this is not my first GT3). I drive too fast to notice any rws algorithm differences. I’ve adapted to the new lighter clutch vs the 997, which I think is perfect for the new engine (the 911R felt light like the new 991.2 GT3). Alll these digital opinions are worthless though. Drive the cars, and find out what you really like; hell pay the premium if you really don’t want a 911R. Regardless, to me, the 911R is not worth any premium over a Touring. I see it below the Touring as far as driving the experience goes. If you’re looking to feel special for personal reasons, that’s a whole other story...
No dog in this fight, but you know R owners in most cases paid less than touring owners as they paid MSRP. Now those who purchased flips a different story. My buddy has every variant of the 911, and drives the R more and says it’s the one he will not sell. I need to drive the damn thing. (: By the way your car is tastefully spec’d
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Old 03-18-2019, 10:20 PM
  #55  
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Originally Posted by unotaz View Post
40 mins is definitely a lot of seat time for any car

I waited 4 months of ownership and many hours of seat time on my GT3 before writing my review.

As to you “drive too fast to notice any rws algorithm differences”, I guess you take all of your corners at above 62mph then! Tell me where you drive and I want to go check out this magical place where every corner is over 62mph

I remember when the 997 GT3RS 4.0 first came out, a lot of people were bashing it for being overpriced and not worth the $$$ difference compared to the 3.8. Same thing happened to the 918 Spyder, all the nay sayers on RL dismissed it as well.
4 months of ownership, but how many miles did you drive the Touring? None because it was a wing GT3. Regardless, how may miles?

I can tell in the first 30 seconds whether I want a car or not, same like when meeting a woman...

Can’t really say where I drove, but let’s just say I’ve learned to do whatever I want as long as I don’t get caught. So let’s just say it was in Mexico and I have great Mexican lawyers

I love the 4.0 997.2 RS. Passed on an 1800 miles specimens for $395k six months ago. Is it an awesome car? Hell yeah. Is it worth the $395k (great deal under market price? No, not to me, so I passed). At the end, the only thing it corrected over the regular 997.2 RS was .2 displacement increase and the power dip at 5.5k rpm. Nothing a few mods can’t correct. Is that worth $200k over the the 997.2 3.8RS? Not really, but people can do whatever they want with their money. I get it, some people spend $1000 like its $10, others $1m like it’s $10k. I love that. Congrats.
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Old 03-18-2019, 10:22 PM
  #56  
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What I notice in this forum is the "habitual raining on someone else's parade."

OP wrote his unblemished opinion and observations since he OWNS BOTH 911R and the GT3 manual. I OWN a 911R and truly like it. I too, do not perceive ever selling my 911R. It will be part of my personal collection. I owned a 991.2 GT3 (PDK) but that is not the same as the GT3 Touring. The winged GT3 was good but disposed of it since in a matter of months I was expecting delivery of my 991.2 GT3RS which I now have.

Do I have to buy and own a GT3 Touring so I can say "I prefer the 911R over the GT3 Touring" ? Hell no, absolutely no NEED to do that as I am convinced after owning several 911's that by far "The Best" 911 I have had (No never owned a 997 4.0 so cannot comment on that). That's precisely my position. I cannot compare my 911R with a GT3 Touring as I never drove nor own a GT3 Touring. Likewise there are many bravados here who speak negatively about the 911R when all they know about the 911R are through reading magazines and postings from a forum.

So please, if you like your Touring, I bet you do and more power to all who owns one. I bet it is a great car as most if not all 911 are great in its own respective ways. But please create your own thread and have the fan boys and gals of GT3 Touring praise your toy there appropriately. I rest my case your honor and thank you for hearing my $0.02.

Back to regular programming.

Drive safe,
GT3RS-Fan1

Last edited by GT3RS-Fan1; 03-18-2019 at 10:27 PM. Reason: correction.
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Old 03-18-2019, 10:27 PM
  #57  
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Originally Posted by GT3RS-Fan1 View Post
What I notice in this forum is the "habitual raining on someone else's parade."

OP wrote his unblemished opinion and observations since he OWNS BOTH 911R and the Touring. I OWN a 911R and truly like it. I too, do not perceive ever selling my 911R. It will be part of my personal collection. I owned a 991.2 GT3 but that is not the same as the GT3 Touring. The winged GT3 was good but disposed of it since in a matter of months I was expecting delivery of my 991.2 GT3RS which I now have.

Do I have to buy and own a GT3 Touring so I can say "I prefer the 911R over the GT3 Touring" ? Hell no, absolutely no NEED to do that as I am convinced after owning several 911's that by far "The Best" 911 I have had (No never owned a 997 4.0 so cannot comment on that). That's precisely my position. I cannot compare my 911R with a Touring as I never drove nor own a Touring. Likewise there are many bravados here who speak negatively about the 911R when all they know about the 911R are through reading magazines and postings from a forum.

So please, if you like your Touring, I bet you do and more power to all who owns one. I bet it is a great car as most if not all 911 are great in its own respective ways. But please create your own thread and have the fan boys and gals of GT3 Touring praise your toy there appropriately. I rest my case your honor and thank you for hearing my $0.02.

Back to regular programming.

Drive safe,
GT3RS-Fan1
Thats the funny thing about RL. People half read and make statements of facts. The OP doesn’t own a Touring. Re-read your post (and the whole thread for that matter). By your own admission, a 991.2 Wing GT3 is not the same as a Touring (even though it’s supposed to be according to Porsche). Where is your logic?

I deal with inferences and significant differences on a daily basis...
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Old 03-18-2019, 10:32 PM
  #58  
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I corrected my post from GT3 Touring to GT3 Manual. I owned a 991.2 GT3 PDK and sold it as I now have my newer 991.2 GT3RS.

Yes that is correct that the 991.2 GT3 Touring is not the same as the GT3 Manual (winged) simply because of the wing? Is it because of the "Wing" and nothing else? Wow what a HUGE difference that may be.

Anyway, if you are happy with your GT3 Touring, please knock your socks off and more power to you and your GT3 Touring.

Drive safe,
GT3RS-Fan1


Originally Posted by GT3 View Post


Thats the funny thing about RL. People half read and make statements of facts. The OP doesn’t own a Touring. Re-read your post (and the whole thread for that matter). By your own admission, a 991.2 Wing GT3 is not the same as a Touring (even though it’s supposed to be according to Porsche). Where is your logic?



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Old 03-18-2019, 10:45 PM
  #59  
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GrantG - thanks for the logical explanation. Makes perfect sense. I've never heard anyone discuss the option of modifying the steering hardware tuning to make the R feel more like a GT3 or vice versa. Not sure if it is possible, but it is an intriguing thought.
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Old 03-18-2019, 10:56 PM
  #60  
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Originally Posted by Nick View Post
I need to be educated. Why would Porsche make the latest models less interactive steering wise than the old models? I don't believe there are any government regulations or safety concerns involving steering. Why would Porsche dumb it down?

Look I know some are wedded to the old Porsche's because they grew up with them. Thus their memories are imbued with excitement, passion and the experience. It's tough to let go a memory of that sort. It's part of you. But if you are objective, you'll soon recognize that the dinosaurs though fun to drive are no where near the excitement that can be generated by a modern Porsche.

To each is own.
I own a "dinosaur" 997.2GT3 RS and 18 GT3 manual. Newer is faster for sure but as for excitement IMHO for me it is the 997.2 RS that is more exciting. As for steering see others explanations. Electric can't beat hydraulic.

They are all awesome

Just my 2 cents
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