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Can't wait for that one. Should be amazing. Were you able to miss the showers on Sat?
Yea sound from 918 especially was captured perfectly as was the speed. Will require some carefully editing to capture the angles but that's part of the fun of making these videos.
No regarding the rain we dove in head-first :-). It's not like we are on motorcycles, we went out both in early morning and afternoon, mostly dry, when it was wet we just drove (slightly) slower. Rain in springtime in the Smokies is almost a given.. it was utterly beautiful to behold.
As an owner of a 2019 GT3 Touring, if there is a 991 R owner out there who would like to get together for a drive, let me know. It would be fun to just take a ride in an R, let alone drive one. We could take some pictures, shoot some video, even swap cars if you and I are both comfortable with it. We could then post our respective thoughts on RL. Both are amazing cars, no doubt. I have never seen an R on the road here in LA. I have seen one Touring (other than my own). I have only seen one Carrera T as well, interestingly. In any event, if there is a taker out there, please DM me. Would make for a fun meet, greet and drive. And I am sure the RL community would enjoy getting our respective thoughts after "kicking the tires" on both cars.
In several posts 2 or more 911R owners state it has less insulation ( one of the things it supposedly makes it feel special). In other threads, wing and Touring owners state the Touring feels louder than the wing version (perhaps it has the same insulation but the different intake make it louder). I was pointing out that people claim the Touring is louder inside than the wing, and that if you owned and compared a Touring vs the 911R, you would have been able to see whether that’s valid or not. But since you had the wing, you could not make the comparison. Anyways, I’ve never said the Touring is different than the wing on any post in the past (other than the intake box).
My point in this thread is not whether the Touring is a better car than the 911R. I’ve always thought the 911R is an awesome car. Some of you were fortunate enough to get a 911R at msrp. That’s great. But it’s a car that perhaps shares 95% of the components with the Touring. Sure, different suspension tuning (subjective which is best depending on driving style and application), SMFW vs DMFW (I prefer the SMFW in the R, but that can also be subjective to some), engine differences that allow 9k rpm and better power delivery vs 8.8k rpm in the 911R (No debate, most prefer the .2 Touring engine). Both have unique characteristics, but in my opinion, not significant enough to claim one is better than the other, nor for a 911R owner to say the differences are significant enough that the 911R is better than a Touring, specially under current market pricing difference (about $100k). Mooty sort of got it in post #67.
I love the 2011 4.0 RS. Amazing car, specially at msrp. Congrats to those that got it back then. Is it worth the extra msrp vs msrp difference between the 2011 3.8 RS? You bet. Is it worth $200k over the 2011 3.8 RS at today’s prices, not in my opinion. Perhaps that’s the main difference from those that got the R or 4.0 RS at msrp don’t see. If I got either at msrp, I wouldn’t sell them either and would probably have more miles on them than most people. But I also wouldn’t pretend they’re the best thing since sliced bread. They’re just fun cars. I drive them too much to care about numbered plaques, miles, or future depreciation. But I’m also not willing to pay $100k to $200k extra for something very similar.
Here it is, the definitive comparison between the 911R and the 991.2 GT3 Manual. For those who are curious on the colors, it's PTS Brewster Green (paired with Rhodium Silver and Black) and Maritime Blue. I have owned the GT3 for several months now and put a fair amount of miles on the car to get a good assessment of the car.
Engine: Without a doubt, the revised 4.0 liter engine in the GT3 is better than the old 911.1 GT3RS 4.0 motor in the 911R. The engine has more torque all across the rev band and it revs all the way up to 9k rpm! Ok, if you are GT3 fan, maybe you want to stop reading now, because that's the only thing going for the GT3.
Noise: 911R trumps the GT3 hands down. The R has SMFW, with significantly less noise insulation, which makes the driving experience at a whole different level. You can hear every little pebble, every little engine noise from the gearbox to the throttle body opening. Even though the engine in the .2 GT3 revs higher to 9000 rpm, the amount of insulation in the cabin hampers its experience compared to the R.
Gearbox: 911R wins again. The R gearbox is notchier and has a more precise movement in the engagement of the gears (more rifle bolt action). The clutch in the GT3 is also too easy to modulate (almost Japanese car like). The SMFW in the 911R makes heel and toe significantly more trickier to master than the GT3. We Porsche guys are weird, we like challenging cars to drive (eg. CGT)! Although the design of the 6 speed gearbox between the R and the GT3 is the same (or at least this is what I hear from my contacts at PAG), it feels different between the two cars. My R has 3 times the mileage compared to my GT3, but the gearbox on the R is tighter and more precise than the GT3. Here is the interesting bit, Porsche actually used two different suppliers on the two cars for the 6 speed gearbox. Maybe that's the difference?
Steering: The 911R wins. The steering in the R is lighter than the GT3 but it has more feel and turning agility is a step up compared to the GT3. This has a lot to do with the RWS on the R, where the algorithm of the RWS is more aggressive than the GT3. The front end turn-in agility is kind of like my 458 Speciale, where it is almost too quick and sometimes the rear doesn't keep up. The 911R is more engaging and more fun to drive on the canyons!
Suspension: The 911R suspension is softer than the GT3 and I prefer the suspension setting on the 911R because I drive the car mostly on canyon roads. Paired with the light but sensitive steering and the aggressive RWS algorithm, the 911R is a joy to drive compared to the GT3 on the same piece of road. Brakes: it's the same between the two, both are awesome!
Looks: This is very subjective here, but I prefer the bumper on the .1 design compared to the .2. The front bumper on the .2 is too angular for my taste and even if I compare the 991.2 GT3 Touring to the 911R, the R wins in my eyes.
Sense of occasion: The 911R with the green dials, soft natural leather, is just a special car period. The GT3 is a good sports car, but it's not a special car. You get the sense that Porsche poured their heart and soul into the 911R and you can feel it the moment you grab the gear lever and start the engine.
Conclusion: For those who have never owned a 911R, you might be wondering if there is such a big difference between the two? The truth is, there are significant difference between the two BUT it takes many weeks of driving and ownership to appreciate the differences. It takes ownership to appreciate the extra effort that Andy and his team that have gone into the 911R. 911R is a keeper and in my opinion, it is the BEST iteration of the 991 generation.
why one would be sooo motivated to make such a comparison is kudos to the Touring as the superior road car and likely a great combo road and track 911 ... the R is a good car and right up there
Last edited by Brian Himmelman; 05-18-2019 at 08:29 PM.
Why are people who don't have an R so quick to try to swap down praise the R owners have of it? End of the day, some of us have them, some don't and as long as people are happy with whatever they have...who gives a sh*t? Its a never ending cycle...
1. Suspension tuning - Preference, the GT3T is a little stiffer and the 911R is softer. RS suspension, is a different story
2. Steering - The GT3T is heavier and not as quick, the 911r is lighter and quicker. Again, preference. Some like Ferrari steering, some don't.
3. SMFW vs DMFW - I think we can all agree the 911r wins here.
4. Looks - preference, stupid to argue this. I personally don't like the stripes, especially green ones.
5. Engine - GT3T wins hands down here. It dynos 30-35 more hp and tq across the rev range. The pull and feel of the 991.2 GT3 engine is what truely separates the facelifted model.
6. Exclusivity, resale and uniqueness - 911r wins, no question about it.
If neither car was limited and both depreciated the same, would you pay 40k more for one or the other? I sure as hell wouldn't. It would boil down to the feel of a SMFW or a better engine for most. Everyone wants to justify exclusivity and minute differences in feel. Take away value, exclusivity and rareness, no one will care.
If you got your 911r at msrp, congrats, you got an amazing car. If you got your GT3T at msrp, congrats, you got a great car.
If you paid 400k for your 911r, congrats, you are an idiot.
LOL. Says the guy who only owns the Touring and not both. I own both cars, along with a few other special Porsches. I don't believe any reviews until I have driven the actual cars extensively. So please post your reviews of both after you get some serious seat time (eg. thousands of miles). We would love to hear them
Originally Posted by Brian Himmelman
most bias self promoting R post I have read to date on RL ... why one would be sooo motivated to make such a comparison is kudos to the Touring as the superior road car and likely the greatest 911 of all time ... the R is a good car and right up there
I personally feel if you bought a R at 300K, you got a good deal because I think that's the low point of the R in the marketplace.
On the engine, I have the dyno plot of both engines from Porsche (I'm a geek, I know), and it's not 30-35 more hp/tq across the range. Where did you get that info from? It's more like 5-7 ft/tq according to the charts.
Don't forget about the recalibrated RWS, carbon fiber fenders, carbon hood, and magnesium roof, along with the removal of the interior insulation in the R compared to the GT3.
Originally Posted by drdonger
1. Suspension tuning - Preference, the GT3T is a little stiffer and the 911R is softer. RS suspension, is a different story
2. Steering - The GT3T is heavier and not as quick, the 911r is lighter and quicker. Again, preference. Some like Ferrari steering, some don't.
3. SMFW vs DMFW - I think we can all agree the 911r wins here.
4. Looks - preference, stupid to argue this. I personally don't like the stripes, especially green ones.
5. Engine - GT3T wins hands down here. It dynos 30-35 more hp and tq across the rev range. The pull and feel of the 991.2 GT3 engine is what truely separates the facelifted model.
6. Exclusivity, resale and uniqueness - 911r wins, no question about it.
If neither car was limited and both depreciated the same, would you pay 40k more for one or the other? I sure as hell wouldn't. It would boil down to the feel of a SMFW or a better engine for most. Everyone wants to justify exclusivity and minute differences in feel. Take away value, exclusivity and rareness, no one will care.
If you got your 911r at msrp, congrats, you got an amazing car. If you got your GT3T at msrp, congrats, you got a great car.
If you paid 400k for your 911r, congrats, you are an idiot.
I personally feel if you bought a R at 300K, you got a good deal because I think that's the low point of the R in the marketplace.
On the engine, I have the dyno plot of both engines from Porsche (I'm a geek, I know), and it's not 30-35 more hp/tq across the range. Where did you get that info from? It's more like 5-7 ft/tq according to the charts.
Don't forget about the recalibrated RWS, carbon fiber fenders, carbon hood, and magnesium roof, along with the removal of the interior insulation in the R compared to the GT3.
The dyno plot from Porsche is what they estimate at the crank.
The dyno's I am quoting are from various board members, myself and Dundon, who have dyno'd 991.1RS' and 991.2 GT3's on the same dyno. The 991.2 GT3 consistently puts down 30-35 more rwhp torque and hp than the 991.1RS. The 991.1RS has the same engine as the 911r. In addition to being a manual, the reason I chose getting a 991.2 GT3 over the 991.1 RS is the engine. The 991.2 engine is way better and you can feel the difference in torque. The same goes for the 911r. In an ideal world, it would be nice to get a SMFW in a 991.2 GT3. Then you have the best of both. The rest of the differences, I hardly care about.
Recalibrated RWS is preference, so is the suspension. The GT3 has heavier steering weight, which many prefer, it also has a stiffer suspension, which arguably makes more sense on a car you want to feel rawness with. That is why I said steering, suspension and RWS calibration is preference. Carbon hood and magnesium roof only save a few lbs and look no difference when painted. Removal of interior insulation is minor to me. I rode in an RS back to back with my GT3 on Sunday and I could barely hear any difference. If you want some sound just add an aftermarket exhaust.
As far as values are concerned, I don't know a ton about market. I do know that I don't try to make money on cars and would never pay over msrp for one. I think it's stupid to pay over msrp for anything, regardless of the if, ands or buts of resale. Paying 100-200k over on a car is just plain stupid to me. If you want to make money, there are better ways than buying cars.
I stopped trying to figure out which is "better" and instead focused on what they are better at- something like the below.
Keep in mind that this is all relative- they are all fast, track capable cars. However the RSs are clearly most proficient on track: their suspension tuning, transmission and down-force are all designed primarily for that environment. The 911R on the other hand was calibrated mainly for the street, and it is designed to excel there at the expense of some track capability. It doesn't have the downforce, stiffer suspension or gearbox that the track cars get, but in exchange it's designed to be more rewarding on a back-road. I view the GT3 Touring as very close to the R, enough so that they overlap, but with a clear bias away from the road and towards the track. The revised engine, flat shift, more downforce and a slightly stiffer, track focused suspension mean that on average I suspect the Touring has slightly more against the clock performance around most circuits despite its heavier weight. That said it's close enough to be in the noise, with spec, alignment and sample to sample variation easily trumping any inherent advantage. Meanwhile that slightly more locked down suspension is designed to move around less, and less movement does take a little involvement away.
These endless arguments seem mainly the result of two models nearly right on top of each-other in terms of timing, spec and performance. Typically Porsche avoids that like the plague, distancing the cars so that each gets a niche and buyers/ owners/ enthusiasts don't face this type of confusion. There are still subtle differences, however, and many would like to explore and understand them . In the end I'd let personal preference and in particular your intended use decide this ultimate "first world problem" dilemma.
BTW the placement on the graph below was entirely subjective and my own. If anyone thinks things should be shifted I'm all ears to understand why.
I stopped trying to figure out which is "better" and instead focused on what they are better at- something like the below.
BTW the placement on the graph below was entirely subjective and my own. If anyone thinks things should be shifted I'm all ears to understand why.
Seems to me the Carrera T should be left of the 911R in terms of track proficiency based on standard tires, let alone complete lack of GT department development...but I have no dog in this fight...
05-07-2019, 01:38 AM
