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Agreed. That's why I have been harping on the recommended minimum income and housing costs in so many of my responses. I think these are two things that really catch a lot of people by surprise when they make the move out here from places that cost 3-4x times less. In other places in the country, if the most desirable areas are too expensive, you can usually find another option 15-30 minutes away in a nice safe neighborhood that fits your budget. That's just unfortunately not the case here.
There is a reason 50k people move to LA per month and 50% of them move back within the first 12 months It's definitely not for everyone and if anything, I'm more discouraging to people that ask me about moving here than I am encouraging. The last thing I want to see is someone make the financial efforts to relocate here, just so they can turn around and go back...
Agreed. The costs are oppressive, but honestly that wasn't why we left. Opportunities are better elsewhere, especially if you have kids.
That is a good point about the women. Seriously, in Ohio the best looking woman I ever saw was a solid 7 in California. In fact, the women are so good looking and in such abundance, that unless you are a real disaster you can find a really good looking one. I am not tall, not dark and not really handsome, yet I was dating a poster girl for the Long Beach Grand Prix. We are talking smoking hot. Then I met my wife, who herself is still smoking hot. In Ohio I would have probably ended up with a 200 pound sweat hog that worked as a phone sex technician.
CA/LA is not a place to try and live if you are a "low-income earner". San Francisco is even worse and claims that a low-income earner is anyone who makes under $117k... There are plenty of other places where you could live like a king on a 117k salary.
There are so many other cities/states that are much better suited for someone that makes a respectable income of 50k to 100k annually. Personally, I don't think you should consider Los Angeles unless the annual household income is at least 200k to 250k. You won't live in a desirable area, you will likely have a long daily commute, and the higher living costs will be much more noticeable.
There are a lot of reasons to choose CA and there are also a lot of reason not to as well. Everyone has different goals, preferences, experiences, and circumstances that will influence whether or not a decision to live in a particular place will either increase or decrease their happiness. Go and live where you are happy. My wife and I really love CA/LA and find that we are overall happier here. If that changes one day, we will move but there is no way we expect anyone to share our feelings since these decisions are extremely personal and based on so many factors that will vary from person to person.
If you guys think housing is so bad here... try living in NYC...
Exactly ! We share same reference points ( chicago ). We love it in California. I will only move if affordability becomes an issue. Otherwise I can’t think of any better place to live. I travel around the world for business every month and it always great to get back to California. Traffic isn’t a issue for me as I live close to work and also work from home most days.
I'm not looking to start a political discussion as it is a nobody wins problem exacerbated by the social media technology of the moment -- and such topics just aren't the focus of this board. But there was another law passed recently by the one party dominated CA legislature that directly impacts housing affordability. My memory of the article I read about the new law is that all new residential construction in CA must have solar power panels on the roofs, as of the effective date. I would guess this adds close to $10k to the cost of all new construction. Close enough. Yet you will hear CA politicians decrying the lack of affordable housing, blaming the greedy developers, blaming the tech money chasing scarce supply, but never training the harsh lens of their rebuke upon themselves. Yes, solar is a good thing. Yes, having solar will reduce electricity costs in summer. Yes, solar will reduce carbon emissions. But to mandate it when so few can afford housing seems a bridge too far. The better solution is to let economics, individual liberty, and personal decision making steer us where we need to go. Those that can afford solar should have the freedom to install it but it should not be a mandate that further drives up construction costs and drives down affordability. A big part of the affordability problem is land use regulation of this sort, among other things (e.g., NIMBY-ism). I get that others may not agree with me, but let's not try to have our cake and eat it too.
Exactly ! We share same reference points ( chicago ). We love it in California. I will only move if affordability becomes an issue. Otherwise I can’t think of any better place to live. I travel around the world for business every month and it always great to get back to California. Traffic isn’t a issue for me as I live close to work and also work from home most days.
It sounds like we have very similar experiences BTW, I probably run into at least one Chicago area transplant here a week... Two people on my block are from the north burbs of Chicago. A guy that lives behind me is from downtown. It's gotten almost comical and since the people here are so much more likely to strike up a conversation and get to know you, we joke about how we almost know more people here that are from Chicago then when we actually lived in Chicago lol...
Parenting is always a factor, no question. But two of our daughter’s best friends in HB have very good parents, and both are still trying to finish college three years after our daughter graduated from CU. Why? Impossible to get the prerequisite classes they need to take other classes. This was a problem 25 years ago, and it is a major reason why kids take 5,6,7 years to graduate from the CSU system.
Here is more anecdotal information. Our niece graduated from UCLA. Super smart. Made it on Jeopardy smart. Great personality too. Very outgoing. She struggled to find employment after graduating. Ended up taking a job making $40k. Now 35 she just bought a house with her boyfriend (parents helped), where she now faces 1.5 hours commuting each way. Nephew graduated from UCI. Also very smart. Also struggled to find work, but ended up going back to school for nursing. Now in his 30s, he is finally making $90k per year. Can afford an apartment with two roommates at the moment.
Of all of the members of our family i would consider these two the brightest. We took them to Europe with us many years ago. Really great kids. But, look at the struggles they have had to get their careers going? And look at the impossible situation they are in to try to live what i would call the American dream? Long daily commutes. Impossible real estate prices. It just wasn’t like this 25 years ago. The thought of leaving the house at 6am only to get back at 6:30 or 7pm just doesn’t sound great to me. That is not living. The only sunshine they are experiencing is out the windshield of their car in bumper to bumper traffic.
Our daughter was more a social butterfly. Cheerleader, super popular, decent student (3.2 GPA in HS), but she wanted the full experience in high school and college. My attitude was go experience college. Get our money’s worth. She joined the big sorority, went to the big games, got a solid education with state-of-the-art facilities, did all the pregame parties, was very involved in the make a wish foundation, and honestly got an experience she was never going to get in California.
Here is her sorority house at CU...
Here is CU Boulder.
Had we stayed in HB and she went to CSUF or Long Beach State what would her future look like now? Would Google have even bothered to interview her? I have 5 pretty solid data points to look at and the real difference is our daughter left California public schools, moved to Colorado, got a real college experience, then came back and got hired by Google. She stood out with that CU degree, and then did the rest during the interviews. Now at 25 she is way ahead of the other 4. Two still haven’t graduated. Can’t get classes! So common in California. One has a UCLA degree and now makes $65k, and lives on the freeway commuting. The other makes $90k but has little hope of owning a home anytime soon.
When we left California there was this attitude amongst them that we were making a huge mistake. California is the best, what are you doing? You do what you have to do for your kids. Again, it wasn’t like this 25 years ago.
Glad it worked out for your daughter and I love Boulder and CU. Hard to beat. But its also naieve to think she could have only got to work at Google by moving out of CA. There are amazing colleges here like UCLA, Stanford, UCSD, Cal Berkeley that are as good if not better. There are also amazing high schools minutes from my house. Now I am not arguing that they are harder to get into and more expensive. I can take just as pretty pics of places here (schools and views). Happy for you and your daughter, you're in the right place.
a timely article about how population in california is just changing in nature, as low and middle class leave, and wealthy enter. This article is especially relevant to me. I'm not wealthy, in the sense that I still need to work, and i can't live off of investments, so I can't "retire" yet, and the costs of living here are quite high. However, it's the opportunity i find here, in the form of investors, innovative thinkers, high level collaborators, which keep me here, in addition of course to the incredible quality of life. The article sums it up quite well.
https://www.latimes.com/politics/la-...L4-QOfV3FlJcts "
Sure, there are anecdotes galore. Everyone seems to know someone who has fled California to dodge its high taxes. But there’s no wholesale bolting of the rich.
“Substantially more rich people are moving into California than moving out,” says Cristobal Young, a Cornell University sociology professor. He teamed with others at Stanford University’s Center on Poverty and Inequality to write a research paper on “Millionaire Migration in California.” State demographers, digging into federal census data, found that significantly more people earning above $125,000 were moving into California than were leaving. And more earning less than $75,000 were taking off. “They want to be where the action is,” Young says. “There’s more opportunity in California. There are a lot of ways to make a lot of money in California, more than other places. A lot of that is tech, but it’s a diverse economy….“People who want to make money tend to live where other high-income people are. It’s one thing to say, ‘I’m going to leave California to save money on taxes.’ But that means leaving clients, collaborators, investors, friends….“It’s not that rich people are moving to Reno and Nevada,” Young adds. “They’re moving to San Francisco and making living costs miserable for a lot of people."
In the January state budget document, there also was this observation: “Over time the state…has become more educated on average due to outward migration of less educated residents…and inward migration of more educated people.”
So the wealthy are not fleeing California in droves even though they’re being hammered by state income taxes. The top 5% of earners pays two-thirds of the tax. The bottom 80% pays less than 11%. That’s just bad tax policy because it leans too heavily on rich people’s capital gains that plummet during a recession.
I can attest to this personally.. almost everyone I meet here is really really smart. The random drunk girl at the bar is a PhD... you can turn in the other direction and someone is deep into "drunk" conversation about biotech, cancer treatments, or some other tech. and these are knowledgeable and in-depth convos. you simply can't this concentration of intelligence anywhere in the world. When i travel outside of the bay area, it's starkly apparent how the average individual is relatively uneducated, focused on sports or some other diversion, and simply not able to maintain the level of convo you get from the "average" bay area encounter. This is not an elitist type of comment, it's simply the self-evident truth, and a fascinating example of the Pareto Effect in action.
a timely article about how population in california is just changing in nature, as low and middle class leave, and wealthy enter. This article is especially relevant to me. I'm not wealthy, in the sense that I still need to work, and i can't live off of investments, so I can't "retire" yet, and the costs of living here are quite high. However, it's the opportunity i find here, in the form of investors, innovative thinkers, high level collaborators, which keep me here, in addition of course to the incredible quality of life. The article sums it up quite well.
https://www.latimes.com/politics/la-...L4-QOfV3FlJcts "
Sure, there are anecdotes galore. Everyone seems to know someone who has fled California to dodge its high taxes. But there’s no wholesale bolting of the rich.
“Substantially more rich people are moving into California than moving out,” says Cristobal Young, a Cornell University sociology professor. He teamed with others at Stanford University’s Center on Poverty and Inequality to write a research paper on “Millionaire Migration in California.” State demographers, digging into federal census data, found that significantly more people earning above $125,000 were moving into California than were leaving. And more earning less than $75,000 were taking off. “They want to be where the action is,” Young says. “There’s more opportunity in California. There are a lot of ways to make a lot of money in California, more than other places. A lot of that is tech, but it’s a diverse economy….“People who want to make money tend to live where other high-income people are. It’s one thing to say, ‘I’m going to leave California to save money on taxes.’ But that means leaving clients, collaborators, investors, friends….“It’s not that rich people are moving to Reno and Nevada,” Young adds. “They’re moving to San Francisco and making living costs miserable for a lot of people."
In the January state budget document, there also was this observation: “Over time the state…has become more educated on average due to outward migration of less educated residents…and inward migration of more educated people.”
So the wealthy are not fleeing California in droves even though they’re being hammered by state income taxes. The top 5% of earners pays two-thirds of the tax. The bottom 80% pays less than 11%. That’s just bad tax policy because it leans too heavily on rich people’s capital gains that plummet during a recession.
I can attest to this personally.. almost everyone I meet here is really really smart. The random drunk girl at the bar is a PhD... you can turn in the other direction and someone is deep into "drunk" conversation about biotech, cancer treatments, or some other tech. and these are knowledgeable and in-depth convos. you simply can't this concentration of intelligence anywhere in the world.
Your response and this article sums things up very well. My primary business is in tech and we have seen over 100% growth since relocating to CA less than 12 months ago. That’s not to say we couldn’t have done the same in another state but I have personally found the quality of talented and motivated individuals to be much higher here. As a result of surrounding myself with more likeminded individuals, this has caused me to also step up my game significantly. I find it very motivating to be around other motivated and driven people.
Glad it worked out for your daughter and I love Boulder and CU. Hard to beat. But its also naieve to think she could have only got to work at Google by moving out of CA. There are amazing colleges here like UCLA, Stanford, UCSD, Cal Berkeley that are as good if not better. There are also amazing high schools minutes from my house. Now I am not arguing that they are harder to get into and more expensive. I can take just as pretty pics of places here (schools and views). Happy for you and your daughter, you're in the right place.
I hear you, but I think her leaving was the only reason she had a shot. Without access to AP classes, she wasn't getting into Berkeley, UCLA or Stanford. The AP participation rate at her California HS is 20%. It is 82% at her HS in Colorado. Why? Because in Colorado anyone who wants to take an AP class can. They are hard, but because the school is not massively overcrowded, she was able to give herself a chance. She did the rest. Do you think graduating from Cal State Fullerton or Long Beach State was going to get her an interview at Google? Graduating from CU made all the difference. She stood out in the sea of applicants, and Google likes diversity (from different backgrounds, locations, cultures, etc.). And those AP courses opened doors. Really changed her life. Right now she probably would be graduating from CSUF working some job making $40k a year living on the 405 freeway.
It literally made all the difference. It gave her a shot. She did the rest. Her life path was totally changed. And 25 years ago moving to California provided that.
I hear you, but I think her leaving was the only reason she had a shot. Without access to AP classes, she wasn't getting into Berkeley, UCLA or Stanford. The AP participation rate at her California HS is 20%. It is 82% at her HS in Colorado. Why? Because in Colorado anyone who wants to take an AP class can. They are hard, but because the school is not massively overcrowded, she was able to give herself a chance. She did the rest. Do you think graduating from Cal State Fullerton or Long Beach State was going to get her an interview at Google? Graduating from CU made all the difference. She stood out in the sea of applicants, and Google likes diversity (from different backgrounds, locations, cultures, etc.). And those AP courses opened doors. Really changed her life. Right now she probably would be graduating from CSUF working some job making $40k a year living on the 405 freeway.
It literally made all the difference. It gave her a shot. She did the rest. Her life path was totally changed. And 25 years ago moving to California provided that.
Good for her. She seems to be smart - i would be massively proud if she were my daughter. Is she moving to CA
However, my friends daughter - who went all the way through LA public schools system - got into Berkeley and now works in the Bay for a tech Company equal to Google - and doesnt live on the 405 and she makes considerably more than $40K at 26. It can be done.
Google is taking 580K square feet of new office space within 2 miles of my house (see converting Westside Pavilion from retail to Google office).
a timely article about how population in california is just changing in nature, as low and middle class leave, and wealthy enter. This article is especially relevant to me. I'm not wealthy, in the sense that I still need to work, and i can't live off of investments, so I can't "retire" yet, and the costs of living here are quite high. However, it's the opportunity i find here, in the form of investors, innovative thinkers, high level collaborators, which keep me here, in addition of course to the incredible quality of life. The article sums it up quite well.
https://www.latimes.com/politics/la-...L4-QOfV3FlJcts "
Sure, there are anecdotes galore. Everyone seems to know someone who has fled California to dodge its high taxes. But there’s no wholesale bolting of the rich.
“Substantially more rich people are moving into California than moving out,” says Cristobal Young, a Cornell University sociology professor. He teamed with others at Stanford University’s Center on Poverty and Inequality to write a research paper on “Millionaire Migration in California.” State demographers, digging into federal census data, found that significantly more people earning above $125,000 were moving into California than were leaving. And more earning less than $75,000 were taking off. “They want to be where the action is,” Young says. “There’s more opportunity in California. There are a lot of ways to make a lot of money in California, more than other places. A lot of that is tech, but it’s a diverse economy….“People who want to make money tend to live where other high-income people are. It’s one thing to say, ‘I’m going to leave California to save money on taxes.’ But that means leaving clients, collaborators, investors, friends….“It’s not that rich people are moving to Reno and Nevada,” Young adds. “They’re moving to San Francisco and making living costs miserable for a lot of people."
In the January state budget document, there also was this observation: “Over time the state…has become more educated on average due to outward migration of less educated residents…and inward migration of more educated people.”
So the wealthy are not fleeing California in droves even though they’re being hammered by state income taxes. The top 5% of earners pays two-thirds of the tax. The bottom 80% pays less than 11%. That’s just bad tax policy because it leans too heavily on rich people’s capital gains that plummet during a recession.
I can attest to this personally.. almost everyone I meet here is really really smart. The random drunk girl at the bar is a PhD... you can turn in the other direction and someone is deep into "drunk" conversation about biotech, cancer treatments, or some other tech. and these are knowledgeable and in-depth convos. you simply can't this concentration of intelligence anywhere in the world. When i travel outside of the bay area, it's starkly apparent how the average individual is relatively uneducated, focused on sports or some other diversion, and simply not able to maintain the level of convo you get from the "average" bay area encounter. This is not an elitist type of comment, it's simply the self-evident truth, and a fascinating example of the Pareto Effect in action.
Describes perfectly my situation as well - great post - except that I do not meet drunk girls at bars anymore. Basically educated people tend to like to meet other educated people. The higher the population density, the higher the likelihood of meeting people alike. And not alike - but most in general filter the people they want to deal with on a friendship or professional basis, so the net effect of those interactions tends to be positive. Dense areas tend to be more expensive, so in general, more educated people tend to pay a premium for population density through higher real estate and services prices. This is not to say that people in this forum that do not live in dense areas, or CA are not educated or do not like to meet other educated people, please. Each case is different but over a large sample people with certain preferences pay to be around other people that also want to pay for the same preferences - e.g. culture, diversity, food, a well made cappuccino and wine, among other things (expensive cars as well). Also, for some, like myself, being able to have fiends form different countries and backgrounds only increases in urban centers. The LA times article is interesting. And for those who are curious, please allow me to recommend a book form Ed Glaeser, from Harvard U, entitled The Triumph of the City, that outlines some of the features of large, congested, expensive, urban centers. And why people (some) pay for that.
Good for her. She seems to be smart - i would be massively proud if she were my daughter. Is she moving to CA
However, my friends daughter - who went all the way through LA public schools system - got into Berkeley and now works in the Bay for a tech Company equal to Google - and doesnt live on the 405 and she makes considerably more than $40K at 26. It can be done.
Google is taking 580K square feet of new office space within 2 miles of my house (see converting Westside Pavilion from retail to Google office).
Thanks! She is a go-getter! She lives in SF now and said she wants to live in California forever. lol
Trust me, that poses some long term issues for us! Grandkids! Google is insane. 580k sqft? Damn.
Yeah, it can be done. No doubt there are stories of people making it. But 30 years ago a smart person with no college education could move to California and make it. I know because i saw many do it. Today doing that is noteworthy. Having a degree from a top California university might get you an interview at Google, if you have the grades. Our daughter makes $125k plus bonus and equity at 25. Psychology degree, but with a business minor.
This throws common wisdom on its head. I will tell anyone in California to send their kids out of state for college. Let them get a real college experience. Then apply at the big tech companies afterwards. It worked for us.
you simply can't this concentration of intelligence anywhere in the world. When i travel outside of the bay area, it's starkly apparent how the average individual is relatively uneducated, focused on sports or some other diversion, and simply not able to maintain the level of convo you get from the "average" bay area encounter. This is not an elitist type of comment, it's simply the self-evident truth, and a fascinating example of the Pareto Effect in action.
03-11-2019, 12:21 PM
It's definitely not for everyone and if anything, I'm more discouraging to people that ask me about moving here than I am encouraging. The last thing I want to see is someone make the financial efforts to relocate here, just so they can turn around and go back...
