Production numbers for GT2 RS?
03-13-2019, 03:13 PM
#31
Uh oh, shots fired....
03-13-2019, 05:25 PM
#32
Rennlist Member
His number on dealers owning 918s wouldn't surprise me. I know one dealer in Utah that the owner and his brother kept 2 of them. Utah isn't a huge market, so it wouldn't surprise me if multiple dealers took more than one 918. I will grab some popcorn now and watch the fight. 
03-13-2019, 05:35 PM
#33
03-13-2019, 07:17 PM
#34
Rennlist Member
Whoopsy - Thank you for your rather lengthy explanation the 918 VIP program. I’ve found only three errors with your post: the beginning, the middle and the end. Outside of that, you basically nailed it.
Who gave you these mysteriously hilarious details of the program? Was it the guy who told you the GT4 would be unveiled at the LA Auto Show? Or was it the guy who said there was a last minute switch and the GT4 was going to be at Geneva? Neither? Was it the guy who told you Lars Kern didn’t know what tires he was running when he filmed the record Nurburgring lap in the RS? I swear those drivers are clueless… you could put snow chains on the RS and Lars wouldn’t know the difference.
You literally told everyone all the above, and all of it was false. And now you've moved onto the 918 program and have attempted to get everyone riled up with more false information. The 918 VIP program is mostly dealer principles??? What?? 170 of them? That’s fascinating. When you add up the dealer groups that own multiple Porsche points, I’m not even sure there are 170 individual dealer principles — in total — in the US. Heck, there's only 188 or so dealerships. You’re claiming that nearly all individual dealers bought a 918? The real number is not even a quarter of that. You're off by 400%.
Your claim that you tried to help develop the 918 program but got over-ruled by PCNA when it came time to establish rules for dealer principles is utterly ridiculous. I mean, like seriously ridiculous. You didn't help craft the program; you simply bought an allocation. That's it! Dealer principles do, indeed, have an ownership period for their GT cars that is mandated by the 918 VIP rules, and it's strictly enforced. In fact, any dealer caught selling his GT allocations within 6 months is removed from the program and penalized by 2X. In other words, if a dealer principle sold his 911R allocation within 6 months, his dealership would receive a penalty of 2 same/similar allocations.
You're confusing the rules regarding their 918, and the rules regarding their rights to future GT cars (911R, etc.) through the program. They could sell their 918's at any point after all 918's were delivered; they did not have to keep them for a year, three years, six months, whatever. But the same rule does not apply to the subsequent GT cars they got for being a 918 VIP. Those GT allocations are absolutely subject to rules. Look it up! It's right in the program rules going back to 2013. Most of them kept their 918's for several years anyway, despite their rights to sell. You got this completely WRONG.
This was the entire premise of your argument: most 918 VIP’s are dealers, they can flip GT cars immediately with no consequences, and that's why there are so many GT cars for sale. All of this is dead wrong.
Besides, accusing a dealer of flipping cars is like accusing a bakery of baking bread. They’re dealers - that’s their business model. Buy cars for $XX and sell them as quickly as possible for as much as possible.
Why are you posting all this nonsense lately?
Who gave you these mysteriously hilarious details of the program? Was it the guy who told you the GT4 would be unveiled at the LA Auto Show? Or was it the guy who said there was a last minute switch and the GT4 was going to be at Geneva? Neither? Was it the guy who told you Lars Kern didn’t know what tires he was running when he filmed the record Nurburgring lap in the RS? I swear those drivers are clueless… you could put snow chains on the RS and Lars wouldn’t know the difference.
You literally told everyone all the above, and all of it was false. And now you've moved onto the 918 program and have attempted to get everyone riled up with more false information. The 918 VIP program is mostly dealer principles??? What?? 170 of them? That’s fascinating. When you add up the dealer groups that own multiple Porsche points, I’m not even sure there are 170 individual dealer principles — in total — in the US. Heck, there's only 188 or so dealerships. You’re claiming that nearly all individual dealers bought a 918? The real number is not even a quarter of that. You're off by 400%.
Your claim that you tried to help develop the 918 program but got over-ruled by PCNA when it came time to establish rules for dealer principles is utterly ridiculous. I mean, like seriously ridiculous. You didn't help craft the program; you simply bought an allocation. That's it! Dealer principles do, indeed, have an ownership period for their GT cars that is mandated by the 918 VIP rules, and it's strictly enforced. In fact, any dealer caught selling his GT allocations within 6 months is removed from the program and penalized by 2X. In other words, if a dealer principle sold his 911R allocation within 6 months, his dealership would receive a penalty of 2 same/similar allocations.
You're confusing the rules regarding their 918, and the rules regarding their rights to future GT cars (911R, etc.) through the program. They could sell their 918's at any point after all 918's were delivered; they did not have to keep them for a year, three years, six months, whatever. But the same rule does not apply to the subsequent GT cars they got for being a 918 VIP. Those GT allocations are absolutely subject to rules. Look it up! It's right in the program rules going back to 2013. Most of them kept their 918's for several years anyway, despite their rights to sell. You got this completely WRONG.
This was the entire premise of your argument: most 918 VIP’s are dealers, they can flip GT cars immediately with no consequences, and that's why there are so many GT cars for sale. All of this is dead wrong.
Besides, accusing a dealer of flipping cars is like accusing a bakery of baking bread. They’re dealers - that’s their business model. Buy cars for $XX and sell them as quickly as possible for as much as possible.
Why are you posting all this nonsense lately?
Hmm, where do I even begin?
BTW I never said GT4 got re-schedule for Geneva. My information was current up until October from marketing. I do not run Porsche, I cannot control what they decide to change last minute dude.
Actually there are 189 dealers, not 188 or so. You should have know that since you WORKED at a dealership.
You can twist facts all you want, but can I ask how many 918 owners you know? Worldwide? And in the USA? What make you so sure about YOUR so called 'truth'?
I run the 918 owners group, collectively we probably buy more cars than your dealership sells in a year, so yes Porsche and I do communicate regularly. And what is said between us is none of your business.
As for you trying to paint the dealer principals, (btw, it is spelled principals, not principles), a nicer appearance, generally they are not. I know enough of them. That they also have to obey the rules of the VIP program, which they do not, I have communication with PCNA stating they are not during our fight with them. And the answer is not, you cannot see them as you are not authorized in the chain and I cannot post them publicly either. It's above your pay grade anyway.
The whole reason the topic came up and communication started with Porsche regarding the VIP program was because a number of dealer principals flipped their 911R without being kicked out while a non-dealer principal flipped and got kicked. We went for clarification from them.
Oh, did you know I was one of the early buyers of the 918 and the VIP didn't even exist yet? You had assumed I was one that bought into the 918 AFTER the VIP program had started. Sorry dude I am not. Plus, the VIP program didn't apply to me in the first place, Porsche Canada does not have the same program, it was a PCNA program only. But later on they told me they will also do something similar with Canadian 918 owners but the owner have to hang onto their 918 for the VIP status to stay, the moment they sell their car the VIP status ends. This is different than the PCNA program. VIP program or not, I bought enough that my dealership already offering me the 1st of everything anyways without the VIP program, I got nothing to gain by being part of it.
it wasn't even my fight in the first place, but I do it for my fellow US owners. Had to as I represent them. The initial program didn't have a time period for holding subsequent limited production cars, but after the fight they had amended and clarified to be a 1 year hold. Who is the one needing to get their facts straight again?
Unlike you who have a motive to protect the image of a dealership, I have nothing to gain or lose by telling the truth. This is a US problem which doesn't affect me in the first place. Secondly these other customers of Porsche don't write me a pay check to paint them a better image. Thirdly, I couldn't care less if I publicly speak badly of Porsche and how they handle things. I did it before already here in the forum showing all the stuff that was happening with the 918, there is a big thread in the 918 forum, second most read after the CGT thread if you want to look it up.
Let's just say I have a Get-Out-Of-Jail-Free card and you don't, you have a leash around your neck and I freely roam around.
The only time ever that I got into a slight trouble was when I posted the picture of the water tank Manthey was working on for the GT2RS in the forum, but with that pic they sold an extra 150 of them, so ended up I did them a favour and they didn't asked me to not take pictures in the first place. Or if they lay down the ground rules first to me then I will obey them.
So there. Sucks to have all these dirty little dealership secrets getting exposed isn't it?
03-13-2019, 07:26 PM
#35
Three Wheelin'
I don't know if all the individual details are true or not but of course the dealers are partly (at the very least) responsible for the ADMs, lots full of nearly new GT cars for sale etc.
03-13-2019, 07:29 PM
#36
03-13-2019, 07:49 PM
#37
Three Wheelin'
Originally Posted by Gravs
I don't know if all the individual details are true or not but of course the dealers are partly (at the very least) responsible for the ADMs, lots full of nearly new GT cars for sale etc.
03-13-2019, 08:22 PM
#38
Rennlist Member
Who is responsible for ADM ? Dealers , flippers , VIP clients ... I believe is old news... I recently visited a bunch of Porsche dealers in different states and I was struck by how many GT cars are in show rooms and on dealer lots , so I have no doubt that Porsche produced a lot of them. How these cars ended there is irrelevant , but there is a bunch of them
and the market always adjusts and will put pressure on prices
where is the bottom ? no one knows , but sooner than later , will be talking about discount below MSRP , God forbids the word invoice on GT cars
and the market always adjusts and will put pressure on prices
where is the bottom ? no one knows , but sooner than later , will be talking about discount below MSRP , God forbids the word invoice on GT cars
03-13-2019, 09:26 PM
#39
Who is responsible for ADM ? Dealers , flippers , VIP clients ... I believe is old news... I recently visited a bunch of Porsche dealers in different states and I was struck by how many GT cars are in show rooms and on dealer lots , so I have no doubt that Porsche produced a lot of them. How these cars ended there is irrelevant , but there is a bunch of them
and the market always adjusts and will put pressure on prices
where is the bottom ? no one knows , but sooner than later , will be talking about discount below MSRP , God forbids the word invoice on GT cars
and the market always adjusts and will put pressure on prices
where is the bottom ? no one knows , but sooner than later , will be talking about discount below MSRP , God forbids the word invoice on GT cars
03-14-2019, 02:13 AM
#40
Racer
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I just went through the process of trying to source an RS car. I thought there'd be little to choose from. The more feelers I put out the more options came flooding in. And then a couple weeks later I'd get another wave of cars I was told didn't exist suddenly become available. The ADM is profoundly dumb at this moment (maybe not at launch), but as I told the dealers: it's hard to be mad at them (as for-profit businesses), if they can charge it why wouldn't they? So, until people stop paying ADM the dealers will continue to hang on - our fault not theirs. With the number of cars available my gut tells me the days are numbered. 991.1 prices are the canary. Anyway, I passed.
I too was surprised by the production numbers, especially of the 2RS. I thought it was a rare car! Nope. 991.2 3RS and 2RS production is not far off! So, for the life of me I cannot figure out 2RS pricing. If you think 3RS prices are dislocated the 2RS feels looney tunes.
I too was surprised by the production numbers, especially of the 2RS. I thought it was a rare car! Nope. 991.2 3RS and 2RS production is not far off! So, for the life of me I cannot figure out 2RS pricing. If you think 3RS prices are dislocated the 2RS feels looney tunes.
03-14-2019, 02:29 AM
#41
I just went through the process of trying to source an RS car. I thought there'd be little to choose from. The more feelers I put out the more options came flooding in. And then a couple weeks later I'd get another wave of cars I was told didn't exist suddenly become available. The ADM is profoundly dumb at this moment (maybe not at launch), but as I told the dealers: it's hard to be mad at them (as for-profit businesses), if they can charge it why wouldn't they? So, until people stop paying ADM the dealers will continue to hang on - our fault not theirs. With the number of cars available my gut tells me the days are numbered. 991.1 prices are the canary. Anyway, I passed.
I too was surprised by the production numbers, especially of the 2RS. I thought it was a rare car! Nope. 991.2 3RS and 2RS production is not far off! So, for the life of me I cannot figure out 2RS pricing. If you think 3RS prices are dislocated the 2RS feels looney tunes.
I too was surprised by the production numbers, especially of the 2RS. I thought it was a rare car! Nope. 991.2 3RS and 2RS production is not far off! So, for the life of me I cannot figure out 2RS pricing. If you think 3RS prices are dislocated the 2RS feels looney tunes.
03-14-2019, 04:45 AM
#42
Platinum Dealership
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Whoopsy, you forgot something- you have a public identity. I know your real life name and you know mine. That changes the equation. Without googling- how many '918' dudes or 'dealer GM/ owners' does the average GT3 guy know? Very few extend themselves publicly. By being in and running the inner circle group you guys all know what went down, what was offered etc. I respect that your have a very unique insight.
I will say that sadly I did not buy a 918 for myself at the time as the AWD and curb weight were a little worrying, along with production numbers. It was a mistake as I would have saved money on a few purchases by having earlier access to the program. Oh well. I kept my CGT through the 918 times and it kept me warm at night.
For the record- so we can clear up this 170 vs 188 vs 189 etc on how many 918's went to dealers...
A real truth is that there are at least 10 people in Usa that decided to go DOUBLE Vip and buy two 918's initially. I know 3 of them personally and I don't know everyone so I'm theorizing it's more than just the guys in my small circle. Could be more than 10. It's a power move to have done it. Some of know one of them, some might know more than I do.
In regards to the multipoint guys- there are 2-3 groups ( big boys ) that have more than 4-5 porsche stores each. There might be a few more that have 2-3 porsche stores. So safe to say 40-50 dealerships out of the ~190 (will be a few more open soon, you might have not counted South Orlando) are owned by a small cadre. Penske, AutoNation come to mind as having more than a handful each. AutoNation has a few huge ones, and a lot of selling power.
But I don't know if Mike Jackson or The Captain has more than one 918.
Either way- the reality is that there is a 918 worth of Nordscheliefe lapping speed in a Gt2RS which has the .25 on the dollar price tag. It's an amazing car. The 3RS is the fastest NA 911 of all time. Two incredible cars.
Do you want rarity or availability? If you could have 911's be more rare or more available...and either front or backend pricing was affected...how would that affect your desire to purchase? Cake on plate or cake in tummy. Hard choices abound for the factory.
Dealers all do their own thing, and some customers DO actually back out.
Last reasons for backouts Recently:
customer getting divorce, 600LT
A wife disapproved, touring
Trade was upside down/ no equity, 720
Kept/bought a different car fr different dealer RS
Didnt get promotion was banking on, RS
Haven't sold stocks or house yet senna
Consolidating 150-350k cars to buy CGT - 3RS
Unforeseen business build expenses 600LT
Delivery taking too long - Mono
Unless I paid first class airfare for euro delivery GT3
Business didn't do well enough, can't afford it speedster
Etc.
I will say that sadly I did not buy a 918 for myself at the time as the AWD and curb weight were a little worrying, along with production numbers. It was a mistake as I would have saved money on a few purchases by having earlier access to the program. Oh well. I kept my CGT through the 918 times and it kept me warm at night.
For the record- so we can clear up this 170 vs 188 vs 189 etc on how many 918's went to dealers...
A real truth is that there are at least 10 people in Usa that decided to go DOUBLE Vip and buy two 918's initially. I know 3 of them personally and I don't know everyone so I'm theorizing it's more than just the guys in my small circle. Could be more than 10. It's a power move to have done it. Some of know one of them, some might know more than I do.
In regards to the multipoint guys- there are 2-3 groups ( big boys ) that have more than 4-5 porsche stores each. There might be a few more that have 2-3 porsche stores. So safe to say 40-50 dealerships out of the ~190 (will be a few more open soon, you might have not counted South Orlando) are owned by a small cadre. Penske, AutoNation come to mind as having more than a handful each. AutoNation has a few huge ones, and a lot of selling power.
But I don't know if Mike Jackson or The Captain has more than one 918.
Either way- the reality is that there is a 918 worth of Nordscheliefe lapping speed in a Gt2RS which has the .25 on the dollar price tag. It's an amazing car. The 3RS is the fastest NA 911 of all time. Two incredible cars.
Do you want rarity or availability? If you could have 911's be more rare or more available...and either front or backend pricing was affected...how would that affect your desire to purchase? Cake on plate or cake in tummy. Hard choices abound for the factory.
Dealers all do their own thing, and some customers DO actually back out.
Last reasons for backouts Recently:
customer getting divorce, 600LT
A wife disapproved, touring
Trade was upside down/ no equity, 720
Kept/bought a different car fr different dealer RS
Didnt get promotion was banking on, RS
Haven't sold stocks or house yet senna
Consolidating 150-350k cars to buy CGT - 3RS
Unforeseen business build expenses 600LT
Delivery taking too long - Mono
Unless I paid first class airfare for euro delivery GT3
Business didn't do well enough, can't afford it speedster
Etc.
03-14-2019, 09:12 AM
#43
Rennlist Member
They'll keep calling you regularly now and with each call their prices will be lower. The tide is rolling in on the stealers....time is NOT on their side and Spring won't bring higher prices. Stealers are just like stubborn sellers who won't face facts that prices are down, they'll just end up chasing the market down if they want to sell their cars. The longer they wait, the lower prices they'll get. I don't think anyone should pay much of an ADM for a GT2RS or GT3RS at this point.
03-14-2019, 09:21 AM
#44
I was offered a 2rs advertised for 100k over Msrp but was told that the dealership would accept 30k over. Too bad I’m not in the market for the car.
03-14-2019, 11:46 AM
#45
Stay patient my friend, MSRP is coming soon on delivery mile WP/mah wheel cars.