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Production numbers for GT2 RS?

 
Old 03-06-2019, 12:01 PM
  #16  
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Originally Posted by once4all View Post
Maybe we should all have expected this when VW took over. There is no doubt this company is diluting the GT brand by over production. Yes, there are new buyers lured by the predicted flat depreciation curve, but majority are still the repeat buyers and they have saturated their garage spaces and need to "flip" the same GT's of "last generation" bot only 6 months or 3 years ago. There are not really that many new buyers if you scratch the surface. These products are not at the price levels (yet) of the more exotic brands, but on the other hand it's not like a sport Rolex that everyone and his brother can afford one if they really want one, so the demand is limited! And you cannot carry your family in it. It's a hobby and niche plaything. If you flood 30 of one model run in one state on average, it is a lot! And they have so many special "limited edition" runs that's the problem folks.
Ferrari is pumping out 488s like no tomorrow (which it needs to because it's now a publicly traded company with shareholders to answer to) and that doesn't seem to discourage buyers from buying. Porsche makes awesome GT cars that looks good and can take an *** kicking at the track and still ask for more. That's the draw to the cars, the lower than normal depreciation is just the icing on the cake. I hope future increased production discourage flippers/speculators, especially dealers spec'ing allocations.
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Old 03-10-2019, 05:27 PM
  #17  
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My guess was 4000 when announced. Was told by someone at porsche they will build as many as they can sell. If they didn’t ask adm i bet it would be closer to 10,000 cars. Want a rare one buy a 911r while market is cooling off. Im thinking about it.
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Old 03-12-2019, 01:10 AM
  #18  
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Originally Posted by usctrojanGT3 View Post
It depends on when the VIP owners paid for the car/took ownership of it. The VIP owners made up the vast majority of the early cars that were delivered last year so I'd expect dozens and dozens of these cars to hit the market in the coming months once that 1-year hold requirement has passed. Unfortunately for the VIPs, there won't be much of an ADM (even for delivery mile cars) left so it'll be a bit of a rush to the exits. I hope they learn their lesson and leave the allocations to the folks who actually want to own and drive the cars.
You forget the fact that vast majority of the so called VIPs are dealer principals, There were 300 918s to the USA, and there are like ~170 dealer principals who each took at least one car. They don't have a one year hold limit cause of their dealer license. They can flip their cars whenever they feel like.

The number of real 918 VIPs are actually only around 100 when you backed out the dealer principals to start with. A number of them already got kicked out of the program when they flip their 911Rs.

After the 911R, the VIP program members were down to 245. Dealer principals cannot be kicked out of the VIP program, So after the 911R, he real number of VIPs left in the program for the US market is actually closer to around 60 (Many of those have multiple 918s). Of those I personally know ~40. None of which planned on flipping theirs. Most are actually parked in their storage though.

Don't keep blaming the 918 VIPs, we did nothing wrong, it was the dealer principals that gave us the bad name. They are the ones that keep flipping their cars as they have a license to flip.

Oh and of the 30 cars that was sold in Canada, maybe 10 person are left in the VIP program. Unlike the US, once a person sold their 918 here, the VIP program ends.
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Old 03-12-2019, 01:53 AM
  #19  
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Originally Posted by Whoopsy View Post
You forget the fact that vast majority of the so called VIPs are dealer principals, There were 300 918s to the USA, and there are like ~170 dealer principals who each took at least one car. They don't have a one year hold limit cause of their dealer license. They can flip their cars whenever they feel like.

The number of real 918 VIPs are actually only around 100 when you backed out the dealer principals to start with. A number of them already got kicked out of the program when they flip their 911Rs.

After the 911R, the VIP program members were down to 245. Dealer principals cannot be kicked out of the VIP program, So after the 911R, he real number of VIPs left in the program for the US market is actually closer to around 60 (Many of those have multiple 918s). Of those I personally know ~40. None of which planned on flipping theirs. Most are actually parked in their storage though.

Don't keep blaming the 918 VIPs, we did nothing wrong, it was the dealer principals that gave us the bad name. They are the ones that keep flipping their cars as they have a license to flip.

Oh and of the 30 cars that was sold in Canada, maybe 10 person are left in the VIP program. Unlike the US, once a person sold their 918 here, the VIP program ends.
You know what, I had no idea that 170 of the VIPs are made up of dealer principals...way more than I thought. I know there are real Porsche nuts out there who don't flip and I don't have a problem with those folks. So many all of those dealer principal cars have already hit the market. I do find it interesting how Porsche didn't apply the same rules about flipping for dealer principals, talk about a double standard.
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Old 03-12-2019, 05:26 AM
  #20  
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Can you guys shut up about overproduction of cars. I've had a deposit on a 3RS for over 5 years and still no car. Prices for used ones still over MSRP. ADMs abound in US.

No, wait, don't shut up, get me a car.
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Old 03-12-2019, 11:53 AM
  #21  
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I have no interest in a 992 GT3 unless there is some performance gain that can overcome the lack luster Panamera-like body styling. I bought my GT3T with the goal of a 10 yr lifespan. The recent round of "games dealers play" has also soured my perspective although I love the cars
Originally Posted by SDGT3 View Post
Agree that they diminished the value for flippers but flooding the market with GT cars begins to make these cars commodities and that hurts everyone. I don't buy to flip but certainly like not seeing a ton of GT cars everywhere you go. I think this ultimately hurt the brand a bit. Think about what made the GT cars special. It was that there relatively few built and people wanted to own one. The flippers hurt the market, but Porsche flooding the market will have unintended consequences....I believe!

Originally Posted by white6speed View Post
These are still great cars. But it remains to be seen what overall production does to the market. But an unintended consequence for PAG could be less interest in the GT series if they over produced. I would think some level of exclusivity would be important to at least the sports cars. At a point in time MB(AMG) and BMW's were somewhat tight but no longer. Transition to all electric will totally change the market and that is around the corner. Enjoy these while we can.
Agreed, Full brand dilution
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Old 03-12-2019, 08:41 PM
  #22  
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Originally Posted by usctrojanGT3 View Post
You know what, I had no idea that 170 of the VIPs are made up of dealer principals...way more than I thought. I know there are real Porsche nuts out there who don't flip and I don't have a problem with those folks. So many all of those dealer principal cars have already hit the market. I do find it interesting how Porsche didn't apply the same rules about flipping for dealer principals, talk about a double standard.
I, together with David Donohue and a few others, had picked a fight with Porsche about it on behalf of my fellow American owners before. In the end, we lost. Their reply was the they are dealer principals, they have a dealer license, they can do whatever they want with their cars. The VIP program rules don't apply to them, in fact, they HELPED draft the program in the first place. Don't blame Porsche, as the dealers are the actual clients customers of Porsche, we consumers are just customers of dealers.

And now you understands why over the years when the subject involved 918 VIPs being the bad guys, I always replied it's the dealers, not 'us', as the majority of the people in the VIP program are dealers themselves.

You remembered the 918 wasn't selling well, and the dealer principals are all pressured by Porsche to take at least one car each. Most did.

All those inobtainable 911Rs in the USA? Majority of which are actually dealer cars. They use their status to spec and then flip. Then flip some more.

All those early GT2RSs? Majority again are dealer VIP cars. Which they proceed to flip and flip again.

GT3RS? Same thing.

GT3 Touring? It's them again.

And the sad thing is, they are the dealers, so allocations go to them first and they decide how they are going to distribute cars. So in addition to flipping their own VIP allocation, they flip the other allocations too and since it's not transparent, no one the wiser.

There are exceptions, I know a few principals are actual collectors and they have yet to flip any one of their VIP cars.







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Old 03-12-2019, 10:12 PM
  #23  
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Originally Posted by Whoopsy View Post
I, together with David Donohue and a few others, had picked a fight with Porsche about it on behalf of my fellow American owners before. In the end, we lost. Their reply was the they are dealer principals, they have a dealer license, they can do whatever they want with their cars. The VIP program rules don't apply to them, in fact, they HELPED draft the program in the first place. Don't blame Porsche, as the dealers are the actual clients customers of Porsche, we consumers are just customers of dealers.

And now you understands why over the years when the subject involved 918 VIPs being the bad guys, I always replied it's the dealers, not 'us', as the majority of the people in the VIP program are dealers themselves.

You remembered the 918 wasn't selling well, and the dealer principals are all pressured by Porsche to take at least one car each. Most did.

All those inobtainable 911Rs in the USA? Majority of which are actually dealer cars. They use their status to spec and then flip. Then flip some more.

All those early GT2RSs? Majority again are dealer VIP cars. Which they proceed to flip and flip again.

GT3RS? Same thing.

GT3 Touring? It's them again.

And the sad thing is, they are the dealers, so allocations go to them first and they decide how they are going to distribute cars. So in addition to flipping their own VIP allocation, they flip the other allocations too and since it's not transparent, no one the wiser.

There are exceptions, I know a few principals are actual collectors and they have yet to flip any one of their VIP cars.
To the extent that's true, and I have no reason to doubt you, then some of these dealers are playing a pretty risky game. There are currently 29 used 991.2 GT2 RS and 46 used 991.2 GT3 RS listed on Porsche’s own website alone, virtually all with pie-in-the-sky ADM asks (remember these are “used” cars). Plus, I know of a number of dealers here in the northeast sitting on mutliple GT2 and GT3 RS's that they aren't listing on Porsche's website. I suspect that practice is not unique to the area. One has to wonder why they'd sit on cars for months at a time and not utilize the Porsche website. Then there's the private sellers, as well as new inventory sitting on dealer’s floors with massively inflated prices.

Willing buyers that can't order cars on one side and Porsche in the business of building as many cars as the market will bear on the other, and in between are the dealers making a mess of it. Don't know how it all ends but it can't be good.

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Old 03-12-2019, 10:19 PM
  #24  
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Originally Posted by Nizer View Post
To the extent that's true, and I have no reason to doubt you, then some of these dealers are playing a pretty risky game. There are currently 29 used 991.2 GT2 RS and 46 used 991.2 GT3 RS listed on Porsche’s own website alone, virtually all with pie-in-the-sky ADM asks (remember these are “used” cars). Plus, I know of a number of dealers here in the northeast sitting on mutliple GT2 and GT3 RS's that they aren't listing on Porsche's website. I suspect that practice is not unique to the area. One has to wonder why they'd sit on cars for months at a time and not utilize the Porsche website. Then there's the private sellers, as well as new inventory sitting on dealer’s floors with massively inflated prices.

Willing buyers that can't order cars on one side and Porsche in the business of building as many cars as the market will bear on the other, and in between are the dealers making a mess of it. Don't know how it all ends but it can't be good.
I hope Porsche burns those stealers with higher production volume. Many dealers create this false scarcity and it's sickening and I wish PCNA or PAG would do something about it, but alas I know they won't.
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Old 03-13-2019, 01:22 AM
  #25  
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Dealers, not just Porsche's, have deep influence in Capitol Hill. They will protect their gravy train at all cost. That's the problem.

PAG, PCNA knew the problem for the longest time but their hands are pretty tied. About the only course of action is to hold back GT car allocations but who else to give the extra to? Basically every dealer is in the same boat.

CJ is pretty straight up, his is still a small one and could do with more allocations, but the big guys don't want to let him have more and will do anything to protect their own allocations, i.e. gravy train.

All those un-sold GT cars, in Porsche's system, they are all ;sold' cars with a valid customer in their database ordering it. But for one reason or another make up one they didn't take delivery and the dealer claims they are 'stuck' with them. That 'customer' may not even know they had ordered a GT car.

As for not showing up the in national database, of course they won't, there are already enough there, putting more on would deflate the price structure. Dealers got those cars at dealer invoice, not even retail, they can afford to sit on a few for a while before slowly unloading them. There is a reason why there are always someone here that said they scored an allocation or a ready car at MSRP or something, that's the last resort when the dealers can't extort anyone else.

Another thing is, by playing this game, Porsche had no way of judging real demand. Dealers snapped up every single allocation they are offered, and config them with bogus customer data even when there is no actual person ordering the car, PCNA won't know the difference as the customer is a real one in the database, short of actually calling the person to verify, they had to take the dealer's word for it. In Porsche's eyes, they are like wow, we jacked up production and yet every car is gonna, we could make even more if we can, thus flooding the market unknowingly. No dealer will turn down a GT car allocation even when they don't have an actual customer, as if they couldn't sell all of them they won't get as many the next time around. Vicious cycle.

Take the GT2RS. It is basically 'sold out' in the USA. But it's not as there are dozens of cars with basically zero miles sitting everywhere with a giant ADM. It's 400k Porsche, that's rarified air pricing for a Porsche, for that price, it opens up the door to a Ferrari, McLaren, Lamborghini. Backed out the speculators that wanted to make a quick buck, is there really that many people willing to pay that much for a Porsche 911? Porsche needed a lot fo extra help to sell 300 918 not a few years ago, that car was only slightly more than double the price of a GT2RS. Now they can sell a car 4 times as many at slightly less than half the price, without major incentive? Without dealers intervention, an educated guess would be 900 or so if Porsche is lucky.
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Old 03-13-2019, 02:36 AM
  #26  
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Originally Posted by Whoopsy View Post
Dealers, not just Porsche's, have deep influence in Capitol Hill. They will protect their gravy train at all cost. That's the problem.

PAG, PCNA knew the problem for the longest time but their hands are pretty tied. About the only course of action is to hold back GT car allocations but who else to give the extra to? Basically every dealer is in the same boat.

CJ is pretty straight up, his is still a small one and could do with more allocations, but the big guys don't want to let him have more and will do anything to protect their own allocations, i.e. gravy train.

All those un-sold GT cars, in Porsche's system, they are all ;sold' cars with a valid customer in their database ordering it. But for one reason or another make up one they didn't take delivery and the dealer claims they are 'stuck' with them. That 'customer' may not even know they had ordered a GT car.

As for not showing up the in national database, of course they won't, there are already enough there, putting more on would deflate the price structure. Dealers got those cars at dealer invoice, not even retail, they can afford to sit on a few for a while before slowly unloading them. There is a reason why there are always someone here that said they scored an allocation or a ready car at MSRP or something, that's the last resort when the dealers can't extort anyone else.

Another thing is, by playing this game, Porsche had no way of judging real demand. Dealers snapped up every single allocation they are offered, and config them with bogus customer data even when there is no actual person ordering the car, PCNA won't know the difference as the customer is a real one in the database, short of actually calling the person to verify, they had to take the dealer's word for it. In Porsche's eyes, they are like wow, we jacked up production and yet every car is gonna, we could make even more if we can, thus flooding the market unknowingly. No dealer will turn down a GT car allocation even when they don't have an actual customer, as if they couldn't sell all of them they won't get as many the next time around. Vicious cycle.

Take the GT2RS. It is basically 'sold out' in the USA. But it's not as there are dozens of cars with basically zero miles sitting everywhere with a giant ADM. It's 400k Porsche, that's rarified air pricing for a Porsche, for that price, it opens up the door to a Ferrari, McLaren, Lamborghini. Backed out the speculators that wanted to make a quick buck, is there really that many people willing to pay that much for a Porsche 911? Porsche needed a lot fo extra help to sell 300 918 not a few years ago, that car was only slightly more than double the price of a GT2RS. Now they can sell a car 4 times as many at slightly less than half the price, without major incentive? Without dealers intervention, an educated guess would be 900 or so if Porsche is lucky.
That's why when the music stops, the price of the GT2RS will go below MSRP this year. The higher the ADM goes, the more the prices will crash. As you said, there are so many well healed buyers out there. I might be able to swing it at MSRP but I have ZERO want for a turbo car....been there, done that. I'm very happy with my NA cars and my Prius. haha
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Old 03-13-2019, 03:28 AM
  #27  
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The flippers are what made this situation what it is. I find it hilarious how people are complaining about “overproduction”. Boo-hoo!! I waited 2 years while the market was artificially inflated by flippers and ghost buyers while the dealers and “top customers” played their game. I watched countless cars get delivered and immediately put up for re-sale upon delivery.

Do you guys realize there are still many potential enthusiast buyers who never even got an allocation due to the flippers and dealer’s games?

I give kudos to Porsche for at least stepping up production to try and put them in the hands of enthusiasts.

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Old 03-13-2019, 08:58 AM
  #28  
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Originally Posted by Whoopsy View Post

As for not showing up the in national database, of course they won't, there are already enough there, putting more on would deflate the price structure.
Exactly. Caveat emptor.
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Old 03-13-2019, 12:55 PM
  #29  
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Originally Posted by medici78 View Post
The flippers are what made this situation what it is. I find it hilarious how people are complaining about “overproduction”. Boo-hoo!! I waited 2 years while the market was artificially inflated by flippers and ghost buyers while the dealers and “top customers” played their game. I watched countless cars get delivered and immediately put up for re-sale upon delivery.

Do you guys realize there are still many potential enthusiast buyers who never even got an allocation due to the flippers and dealer’s games?

I give kudos to Porsche for at least stepping up production to try and put them in the hands of enthusiasts.

There is no perfect solution short of taking away the allocations from the dealers and have those cars assigned by PCNA one by one via individual application to them.

It won't work due the the extreme volume of applicants.
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Old 03-13-2019, 01:45 PM
  #30  
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Whoopsy - Thank you for your rather lengthy explanation the 918 VIP program. I’ve found only three errors with your post: the beginning, the middle and the end. Outside of that, you basically nailed it.

Who gave you these mysteriously hilarious details of the program? Was it the guy who told you the GT4 would be unveiled at the LA Auto Show? Or was it the guy who said there was a last minute switch and the GT4 was going to be at Geneva? Neither? Was it the guy who told you Lars Kern didn’t know what tires he was running when he filmed the record Nurburgring lap in the RS? I swear those drivers are clueless… you could put snow chains on the RS and Lars wouldn’t know the difference.

You literally told everyone all the above, and all of it was false. And now you've moved onto the 918 program and have attempted to get everyone riled up with more false information. The 918 VIP program is mostly dealer principles??? What?? 170 of them? That’s fascinating. When you add up the dealer groups that own multiple Porsche points, I’m not even sure there are 170 individual dealer principles — in total — in the US. Heck, there's only 188 or so dealerships. You’re claiming that nearly all individual dealers bought a 918? The real number is not even a quarter of that. You're off by 400%.

Your claim that you tried to help develop the 918 program but got over-ruled by PCNA when it came time to establish rules for dealer principles is utterly ridiculous. I mean, like seriously ridiculous. You didn't help craft the program; you simply bought an allocation. That's it! Dealer principles do, indeed, have an ownership period for their GT cars that is mandated by the 918 VIP rules, and it's strictly enforced. In fact, any dealer caught selling his GT allocations within 6 months is removed from the program and penalized by 2X. In other words, if a dealer principle sold his 911R allocation within 6 months, his dealership would receive a penalty of 2 same/similar allocations.

You're confusing the rules regarding their 918, and the rules regarding their rights to future GT cars (911R, etc.) through the program. They could sell their 918's at any point after all 918's were delivered; they did not have to keep them for a year, three years, six months, whatever. But the same rule does not apply to the subsequent GT cars they got for being a 918 VIP. Those GT allocations are absolutely subject to rules. Look it up! It's right in the program rules going back to 2013. Most of them kept their 918's for several years anyway, despite their rights to sell. You got this completely WRONG.


This was the entire premise of your argument: most 918 VIP’s are dealers, they can flip GT cars immediately with no consequences, and that's why there are so many GT cars for sale. All of this is dead wrong.

Besides, accusing a dealer of flipping cars is like accusing a bakery of baking bread. They’re dealers - that’s their business model. Buy cars for $XX and sell them as quickly as possible for as much as possible.

Why are you posting all this nonsense lately?

Last edited by ChicagoWhale; 03-13-2019 at 02:33 PM.
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