How come McL and Ferrari have turbo V8s and weigh the same or less than a P GT car?
03-02-2019, 07:30 PM
#1
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
How come McL and Ferrari have turbo V8s and weigh the same or less than a P GT car?
I understand Ferrari has the reputation of fudging a little but shouldn't a turbo V8 weigh a lot more than a NA 6?
03-02-2019, 07:38 PM
#3
03-02-2019, 08:41 PM
#4
03-02-2019, 09:55 PM
#5
Ferrari quote dry weights in lightest possible spec and the official factory weight is nothing like the actual customer car weight (a 458/488 would be probably just over 1550kg or thereabouts) when fully fuelled.
Mclaren's cf chassis is lighter but probably not 'dramatically'. Well not unless one considers maybe ~80kg to be dramatic (I don't). They also don't tend to have roll cages (ok not relevant in the US but in Europe that adds a fair chunk of weight to the Porsche) and a smaller fuel tank than what one would expect.
Mclaren's cf chassis is lighter but probably not 'dramatically'. Well not unless one considers maybe ~80kg to be dramatic (I don't). They also don't tend to have roll cages (ok not relevant in the US but in Europe that adds a fair chunk of weight to the Porsche) and a smaller fuel tank than what one would expect.
03-02-2019, 10:07 PM
#6
Rennlist Member
Maybe CJ or some Mac owners can comment on the precise amount of weight savings in current Macs due to CF.
03-02-2019, 10:22 PM
#7
Burning Brakes
I have put all my Ferraris on corner weight scales, Truth vs. Ferrari numbers are worlds apart.
Take this. A Pista is 40 Kg (88 lbs) lighter than the new F8. F8 published weight is under 3,000 lbs. A Pista tested recently weighed 3,308 (add another 88 lbs, and the F8 is close to 3,400 lbs not under 3,000 lbs).
McLaren is the real deal, I haven't owned one yet because of the horror stories I have witnessed at my local tracks, a couple of student's cars overheated with them or me driving, so I'm just waiting for them to work for my type of use. The 600LT could be the first one , although the 720S TrackPack is appealing.
McLaren weights are realistic, and they understate their cars power. This I like, the fragile Italian thing got old for me, not going back unless really old stuff (Strad, 308, 512bb).
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03-02-2019, 10:27 PM
#8
Race Director
03-03-2019, 12:57 AM
#9
False. Fudging a lot. Put their cars on the Dyno, do a test on a 360, 430, 458, 599, F12, results are shocking.
I have put all my Ferraris on corner weight scales, Truth vs. Ferrari numbers are worlds apart.
Take this. A Pista is 40 Kg (88 lbs) lighter than the new F8. F8 published weight is under 3,000 lbs. A Pista tested recently weighed 3,308 (add another 88 lbs, and the F8 is close to 3,400 lbs not under 3,000 lbs).
McLaren is the real deal, I haven't owned one yet because of the horror stories I have witnessed at my local tracks, a couple of student's cars overheated with them or me driving, so I'm just waiting for them to work for my type of use. The 600LT could be the first one , although the 720S TrackPack is appealing.
McLaren weights are realistic, and they understate their cars power. This I like, the fragile Italian thing got old for me, not going back unless really old stuff (Strad, 308, 512bb).
I have put all my Ferraris on corner weight scales, Truth vs. Ferrari numbers are worlds apart.
Take this. A Pista is 40 Kg (88 lbs) lighter than the new F8. F8 published weight is under 3,000 lbs. A Pista tested recently weighed 3,308 (add another 88 lbs, and the F8 is close to 3,400 lbs not under 3,000 lbs).
McLaren is the real deal, I haven't owned one yet because of the horror stories I have witnessed at my local tracks, a couple of student's cars overheated with them or me driving, so I'm just waiting for them to work for my type of use. The 600LT could be the first one , although the 720S TrackPack is appealing.
McLaren weights are realistic, and they understate their cars power. This I like, the fragile Italian thing got old for me, not going back unless really old stuff (Strad, 308, 512bb).
Edit, oh I found it. F8 Tributo
03-03-2019, 05:24 AM
#10
Rennlist
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488 Pista at weighed at SportAutos' supertest (11/2019) 1481kg with full tank, no rollcage. Tested power was xxxhp*. 7:00'
Standard 488GTB weighed at SportAutos' supertest (12/2016) 1553kg with full tank, no rollcage. Tested power was 700hp. 7:22'
Mac 720S weighed at SportAutos' supertest (2/2019) 1437kg with full tank, no rollcage. Tested power was 748hp. 7:08'
Huracan Performante (12/2018) 1604kg / 608hp. 40kg extra from full cage and race seat. 7:08'
Porsches in the same supertest:
991 GT2RS (7/2018) 1513kg / 696hp. Full tank, Weissach-pack but a race seat from Cup. (+9kg) 6:58'
991.2 GT3RS (9/2018) 1443kg / 519hp. Full tank, Weissach-pack but a race seat from Cup. (no extra weight mentioned) 7:05'
All Nordschleife lap times by same driver, Christian Gebhardt. Different tires and weather conditions of course.
Calculate Pista's real weight from those numbers. OTH in issue 7/2108 was Pista's tracktest in Fiorano. In the text 90 kilos weight saving compared to GTB is mentioned. Then it would weight, with full tank, 1463kg (1553-90). Tank volume is 78l, so weight of the fuel is about 56kg. 1463-56=1407. Ferrari claims 1385kg dry. 22 kg missing...
EDIT: Pista's numbers from supertest added. Fuel tank is 78l, so fuel's weight is about 56kg. Then Pista's dry weight is about 1381kg and Ferrari's claim is valid. I just got the issue vial snailmail, so I haven't got time to read it through yet. But few notes: *They could not measure the power reliably because of tire slip in lower gears and too high wheel speed in 7th. Max Tq was 760 Nm @ 6400 RPM, Ferrari claims 770 Nm @3000. Tq curve was flat and above 750 Nm from 3400 to 6400 rpm... In pictures one can notice that Ferrari still provides only 4 point harness, without sub strap.
Standard 488GTB weighed at SportAutos' supertest (12/2016) 1553kg with full tank, no rollcage. Tested power was 700hp. 7:22'
Mac 720S weighed at SportAutos' supertest (2/2019) 1437kg with full tank, no rollcage. Tested power was 748hp. 7:08'
Huracan Performante (12/2018) 1604kg / 608hp. 40kg extra from full cage and race seat. 7:08'
Porsches in the same supertest:
991 GT2RS (7/2018) 1513kg / 696hp. Full tank, Weissach-pack but a race seat from Cup. (+9kg) 6:58'
991.2 GT3RS (9/2018) 1443kg / 519hp. Full tank, Weissach-pack but a race seat from Cup. (no extra weight mentioned) 7:05'
All Nordschleife lap times by same driver, Christian Gebhardt. Different tires and weather conditions of course.
EDIT: Pista's numbers from supertest added. Fuel tank is 78l, so fuel's weight is about 56kg. Then Pista's dry weight is about 1381kg and Ferrari's claim is valid. I just got the issue vial snailmail, so I haven't got time to read it through yet. But few notes: *They could not measure the power reliably because of tire slip in lower gears and too high wheel speed in 7th. Max Tq was 760 Nm @ 6400 RPM, Ferrari claims 770 Nm @3000. Tq curve was flat and above 750 Nm from 3400 to 6400 rpm... In pictures one can notice that Ferrari still provides only 4 point harness, without sub strap.
__________________
Pete
Power. Lots is good, more is better, too much is just right...
'87 951, RIP
'00 996 C2 L92U AQ / IXAA IXRB IX54 M96/7.xx G96/7.88 M030 M375 M376 M436 M476 M601 M983 ... + 991 GT3 brakes, 997 GT3 sway bars, fully monoball'd suspension, Bilstein Cup Car coilovers, do88 Big Pack ICs. 10 & 12 x 19" BBS CH-R wheels with 265/30 & 325 /30 -19 MPSC2s.
Pete
Power. Lots is good, more is better, too much is just right...
'87 951, RIP
'00 996 C2 L92U AQ / IXAA IXRB IX54 M96/7.xx G96/7.88 M030 M375 M376 M436 M476 M601 M983 ... + 991 GT3 brakes, 997 GT3 sway bars, fully monoball'd suspension, Bilstein Cup Car coilovers, do88 Big Pack ICs. 10 & 12 x 19" BBS CH-R wheels with 265/30 & 325 /30 -19 MPSC2s.
Last edited by pete95zhn; 10-30-2019 at 01:46 PM. Reason: New info
03-03-2019, 06:47 AM
#11
The original Mac CF tub weighs 80Kg by itself, but the CF components in current mclarens save over 300lbs compared to traditional metals in sports cars. Over 300lbs is dramatic difference to me.
Maybe CJ or some Mac owners can comment on the precise amount of weight savings in current Macs due to CF.
The key part of the Mclaren advantage is the cf monocoque but I don't believe it has a 150kg advantage over say the Ferrari aluminium chassis. The r8 aluminium spaceframe was 200kg but included both front and rear crash structures plus roof. The original 12c monocell was just exactly that - the tub that was 80kg. The 720 has saved some weight over the 12c/650 by incorporating the a pillars/roof into the monocoque. The weight difference between a 488 and a 720 is ballpark ~100kg and some of that will be lighter components/general weight saving. I don't see how you are getting 150kg just from the chassis material.
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JB43 (10-19-2019)
03-03-2019, 11:31 AM
#13
Nordschleife Master
03-03-2019, 12:20 PM
#14
neither does the 720. What I loved about my 488 was the no lag. Didnt think other cars could compare. The. I got 720 and every bit as good in terms as no lag but with more power.
The numbers for weight for the 2 cars have been posted above but to me the 720 just drives and feels a lot lighter than 488. 488 is a great drive with no lag. 720 to me is slightly better.
The numbers for weight for the 2 cars have been posted above but to me the 720 just drives and feels a lot lighter than 488. 488 is a great drive with no lag. 720 to me is slightly better.
03-03-2019, 03:44 PM
#15
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
I don't know why I have always had such a want for Ferrari, ever since I was a kid. They rarely seem to be the best when tested objectively against other cars. I think I need to just get one to get it out of my system. After I have 'experienced' ownership I will probably move back to Porsche for the duration.
J
J