How come McL and Ferrari have turbo V8s and weigh the same or less than a P GT car?
03-05-2019, 02:50 AM
#46
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^^Very good insight CJ. Thanks. I'm thinking more and more about a newer Ferrari. Drove a 488 and it really felt comfortable and super nice inside-like a 911. There was great visibility around the car. I figure F8 should be as good and faster. I felt really squashed and the visibility was abysmal in a Lambo Huracan. Haven't tried the McL but by all accounts it sounds pretty livable now.
J
J
03-05-2019, 02:53 AM
#47
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Delete
03-05-2019, 03:00 AM
#48
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Thread Starter
In all fairness you're on a Porsche forum.
For every owner that came back to Porsche, there's one or more former Porsche owners that went to Ferrari or Lamborghini and never looked back. They just aren't posting on Rennlist.
Also, you can't discount owners that have both a Porsche GT derivative and a Ferrari/Lamborghini/McLaren in their garage.
Just saying.
For every owner that came back to Porsche, there's one or more former Porsche owners that went to Ferrari or Lamborghini and never looked back. They just aren't posting on Rennlist.
Also, you can't discount owners that have both a Porsche GT derivative and a Ferrari/Lamborghini/McLaren in their garage.
Just saying.
03-05-2019, 03:09 AM
#49
SJW, a Carin' kinda guy
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plus it needs less harmonic balancing countermeasures. An over 8000rpm flat 6 is always trying to pull itself apart, and you have to secure it with longer bolts etc.
I am sorry, but I don’t think this makes any sense. A flat six is primary and secondary balanced. A V8 if flat plane crack has secondary dynamic imbalance and a cross plane crank has to have counterweights/balancer.
I agree that if you rev a typical engine to 8000rpm, it needs to be sturdy (it’s really piston speed so 8000 is relative to the design — 8000rpm is nothing for a small short stroke motorcycle engine), but “longer bolts?” Where would you fit longer bolts? To what end?
I am sorry, but I don’t think this makes any sense. A flat six is primary and secondary balanced. A V8 if flat plane crack has secondary dynamic imbalance and a cross plane crank has to have counterweights/balancer.
I agree that if you rev a typical engine to 8000rpm, it needs to be sturdy (it’s really piston speed so 8000 is relative to the design — 8000rpm is nothing for a small short stroke motorcycle engine), but “longer bolts?” Where would you fit longer bolts? To what end?
03-05-2019, 03:45 AM
#50
SJW, a Carin' kinda guy
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The recently introduced Morgan plus six is 2370lbs with a turbo BMW 6 and 8 speed zf auto. Add stupid fast BMW straight six (M3 CS has 456hp) with a 6MT it’s probably close to a wash weight wise; under 2500lbs for sure. Why can’t Mac of fiat or Porsche make something like that? Lotus cup 430. 2328lbs with 430hp. And that’s a Camry motor with an edelbrock blower. It’s doable to build something light and fast. Modern Mac/Porsche/Ferrari are not it.
03-05-2019, 06:44 AM
#52
neither does the 720. What I loved about my 488 was the no lag. Didn’t think other cars could compare. The. I got 720 and every bit as good in terms as no lag but with more power.
The numbers for weight for the 2 cars have been posted above but to me the 720 just drives and feels a lot lighter than 488. 488 is a great drive with no lag. 720 to me is slightly better.
The 488 does artificially limit power and RPM in the lower gears primarily to reduce turbo lag. Obvious trade off there of course.
03-05-2019, 01:40 PM
#53
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If anyone is interested, here is an article from Porsche explaining the benefits of the flat six. While it's a simple article with facts many of you already know, it briefly address the balance of forces which was mentioned above. In fact, this characteristic balance is one of the reasons these high revving, small engines are so famously reliable and dependable.
https://newsroom.porsche.com/fallbac...mic-15767.html
https://newsroom.porsche.com/fallbac...mic-15767.html
03-05-2019, 02:22 PM
#54
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Thread Starter
If anyone is interested, here is an article from Porsche explaining the benefits of the flat six. While it's a simple article with facts many of you already know, it briefly address the balance of forces which was mentioned above. In fact, this characteristic balance is one of the reasons these high revving, small engines are so famously reliable and dependable.
https://newsroom.porsche.com/fallbac...mic-15767.html
https://newsroom.porsche.com/fallbac...mic-15767.html
J
03-05-2019, 02:26 PM
#55
1500 miles in a 720 - Virtually no lag (unless you are trolling around 500 or so rpm)
Prior to driving the 488, I had never experienced a turbo that was as good as the 488 in terms of responsiveness. The 720 - similar feel. Both are great and responsive and I find no lag in either one. The 650 and the 12c before that were terrible in terms of lag. They fixed it with the 720.
03-05-2019, 04:10 PM
#56
GT3 player par excellence
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+1000. I sold a GT3 for a 12C(Biggest POS lemon in the world) then got a 12C spider(better but by then I had no confidence in McLaren and my Dealer). Traded the spider in for a huge loss and got a RS. So glad to be back in a Porsche.
BUT…….. That itch is soooo ITCHY. Lately - I have been drooling a F458 Speciale's. Hopefully it won't be a painful lesson this time.
BUT…….. That itch is soooo ITCHY. Lately - I have been drooling a F458 Speciale's. Hopefully it won't be a painful lesson this time.
get it
them come back to wife...
don’t get caught
life more fun this way
03-05-2019, 08:20 PM
#57
Fair enough. See above response.
03-05-2019, 09:46 PM
#58
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V engines are more compact in a horizontal plane and other than the "weight distribution/ CoG" argument- Flat engines don't make a lot of sense for hypercars etc.
4L 9k RPM 6cyl piston velocity vs a 4L V8 9K RPM piston velocity...the 911 engine is a big challenge to keep oiled as we found out on 991 GT3...
The flat engine does not allow for the use of a diffuser in the same way that literally every mid engined super/hypercar uses to provide aerodynamic advantage. This is why the GT3RS and GT2RS have to run the big huge wings while McLaren or Ferrari or Audi or the Valkyrie can all generate a huge amount of rear end DF via underbody diffusers. The V allows for channels on the right and left of the banks and the piping (headers, controlling turbos, exhaust etc) can all be creatively packaged to make the car more slippery. The 918 for instance, or the 600LT for instance. The Ford GT is really the
Ultimate iteration of skinny spined tech but we'll throw it out since it's a 3.5L v6.
The entire reason why porsche went to mid engined in the RSR was to find a way to make more underbody downforce- it's somewhat of a gimmick because we don't have mid engined 911's do we? They made a new path forward because the rear engined RSR was not competitive enough vs the Ford GT spaceship.
Ok back to reality- the flat engine is great for rear end grip when you have a 4L but it's only as good as it is because of the consistent development they put into it for the last 50 years.
4L 9k RPM 6cyl piston velocity vs a 4L V8 9K RPM piston velocity...the 911 engine is a big challenge to keep oiled as we found out on 991 GT3...
The flat engine does not allow for the use of a diffuser in the same way that literally every mid engined super/hypercar uses to provide aerodynamic advantage. This is why the GT3RS and GT2RS have to run the big huge wings while McLaren or Ferrari or Audi or the Valkyrie can all generate a huge amount of rear end DF via underbody diffusers. The V allows for channels on the right and left of the banks and the piping (headers, controlling turbos, exhaust etc) can all be creatively packaged to make the car more slippery. The 918 for instance, or the 600LT for instance. The Ford GT is really the
Ultimate iteration of skinny spined tech but we'll throw it out since it's a 3.5L v6.
The entire reason why porsche went to mid engined in the RSR was to find a way to make more underbody downforce- it's somewhat of a gimmick because we don't have mid engined 911's do we? They made a new path forward because the rear engined RSR was not competitive enough vs the Ford GT spaceship.
Ok back to reality- the flat engine is great for rear end grip when you have a 4L but it's only as good as it is because of the consistent development they put into it for the last 50 years.
03-06-2019, 01:56 AM
#59
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Thread Starter
^^Makes a lot of sense. It seems like Porsche has spent its entire life trying to make the best of the *** engine architecture!
J
J
03-06-2019, 06:27 AM
#60
Isn't what CJ mentions more an engine location issue than type of engine....? In a traditional mid engine car the gearbox suts behind the engine which sits ahead of the rear axle, diffusor/underbody tunnels don't start where the engine is located. Or am I missing something.
