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How come McL and Ferrari have turbo V8s and weigh the same or less than a P GT car?

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How come McL and Ferrari have turbo V8s and weigh the same or less than a P GT car?

 
Old 03-04-2019, 11:07 AM
  #31  
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Originally Posted by Ritesh View Post
+1000. I sold a GT3 for a 12C(Biggest POS lemon in the world) then got a 12C spider(better but by then I had no confidence in McLaren and my Dealer). Traded the spider in for a huge loss and got a RS. So glad to be back in a Porsche.

BUT…….. That itch is soooo ITCHY. Lately - I have been drooling a F458 Speciale's. Hopefully it won't be a painful lesson this time.
Did it ever dawn on you that 1) perhaps you just got a bad car and 2) you are overly reliant on the dealer - before completely trashing McLaren?

Porsche does NOT do everything right. From the rubber centered clutch disk to the IMS, from the finger follower issue to the coolant hose / pinning issue, Porsche has come up with some real gems of problems, and stuck them to their respective owners HARD. It's a car, it has problems. No manufacturer is exempt.
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Old 03-04-2019, 12:34 PM
  #32  
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Originally Posted by Ritesh View Post
+1000. I sold a GT3 for a 12C(Biggest POS lemon in the world) then got a 12C spider(better but by then I had no confidence in McLaren and my Dealer). Traded the spider in for a huge loss and got a RS. So glad to be back in a Porsche.

BUT…….. That itch is soooo ITCHY. Lately - I have been drooling a F458 Speciale's. Hopefully it won't be a painful lesson this time.
the early Mclarens certainly had their problems. The more recent cars are much better. 570 and 720 seem to be on par with other manufacturers. 12c? You couldn’t pay me to own one although many people have had no issues with those cars.
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Old 03-04-2019, 12:43 PM
  #33  
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There's an awful amount of bashing the old 12c. Ok i'm a bit biased as I had one for 6 years but while it is fair to say the very early cars had a considerable number of electrical problems and there definitely were some problem cars floating around that never got properly fixed (a friend unfortunately had one), after the initial cars were updated to the various platform changes and the later 12c's were all mostly running fine. And imo the P11 cars all in general have better build quality than the P13 570s (no vested interest anymore as I don't have either but just an observation from poking around the service station/bodyshop).
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Old 03-04-2019, 04:36 PM
  #34  
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Originally Posted by Catorce View Post
Did it ever dawn on you that 1) perhaps you just got a bad car and 2) you are overly reliant on the dealer - before completely trashing McLaren?

Porsche does NOT do everything right. From the rubber centered clutch disk to the IMS, from the finger follower issue to the coolant hose / pinning issue, Porsche has come up with some real gems of problems, and stuck them to their respective owners HARD. It's a car, it has problems. No manufacturer is exempt.
Do you track your McLaren? If so, would you mind sharing how it holds up? I'd love to get one but I've heard they are a mess on the track. They allegedly have to be inspected before and after tracking and they won't cover warranty issues from alleged track use to anyone other than the original owner.
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Old 03-04-2019, 04:40 PM
  #35  
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Originally Posted by rsierra View Post
Do you track your McLaren? If so, would you mind sharing how it holds up? I'd love to get one but I've heard they are a mess on the track. They allegedly have to be inspected before and after tracking and they won't cover warranty issues from alleged track use to anyone other than the original owner.
I have not tracked the McLarens yet as I have been very busy as of late with my machine shop. The 12c is out of warranty, the 570 still has it.

I get notices all the time of McLaren Newport Beach holding track days for their customers, so it can't be that bad.
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Old 03-04-2019, 04:43 PM
  #36  
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Originally Posted by isv View Post
There's an awful amount of bashing the old 12c. Ok i'm a bit biased as I had one for 6 years but while it is fair to say the very early cars had a considerable number of electrical problems and there definitely were some problem cars floating around that never got properly fixed (a friend unfortunately had one), after the initial cars were updated to the various platform changes and the later 12c's were all mostly running fine. And imo the P11 cars all in general have better build quality than the P13 570s (no vested interest anymore as I don't have either but just an observation from poking around the service station/bodyshop).
I laugh when people say the "old" 12c.....its a 2012, not a 1980.

Mine is #183, a VERY early build with 22K miles and no issues. All of the latest software updates, 616HP ecu, etc. I was told the early cars were hand built by old F1 engineers and I believe it.

I also have a 570 and the build quality of the 12c is pretty much on par, although the 570 has more bells and whistles.

And as you know from owning a 12c, the Mac still draws a crowd wherever it goes, and can easily dust off any car except for the latest hypercars.

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Old 03-04-2019, 05:45 PM
  #37  
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Originally Posted by Drifting View Post
Maybe CJ or some Mac owners can comment on the precise amount of weight savings in current Macs due to CF.
This is a copy from the 600LT specification. Note base dry weight vs minimum dry weight 2780 - 2749 = 31lbs due to CF options.


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Old 03-04-2019, 06:01 PM
  #38  
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And here are the numbers for the 720 coupe. Difference = 89lbs.


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Old 03-04-2019, 06:08 PM
  #39  
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Originally Posted by Ducati1199 View Post
This is a copy from the 600LT specification. Note base dry weight vs minimum dry weight 2780 - 2749 = 31lbs due to CF options.

Sounds about right for basic carbon options, but the big weight savings is in the CF tub which save a few hundred pounds. I wish CJ or another Mac owner would tell us exactly how much less the Mclaren monocell 2 weighs compared to a similar metal frame.

And speaking of real Mclaren weight vs Ferrari lying their *** off, here is an nice comparison of the two by an independent party (motortrend) who personally weighed the 720S and and 488 with fluids and the 488 was 245 lbs heavier! Ferrari has no shame to lie like they do with a straight face.

https://www.motortrend.com/news/2018...t-test-review/

The performance of the 720S due to its power to weight ratio, is amazing! Can only imagine how fast the LT version will be
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Old 03-04-2019, 07:07 PM
  #40  
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Originally Posted by Ducati1199 View Post
This is a copy from the 600LT specification. Note base dry weight vs minimum dry weight 2780 - 2749 = 31lbs due to CF options.

That weight is also a car with no air con and no stereo..... but to be fair Mclaren like with the 675 was also reasonably upfront about the fact the car was supplied without those as standard and they were no cost options to add back. Real world customer cars are probably going to be about 1400kg or thereabouts given I know for certain a friend's 675 was weighed at 1385kg.

Originally Posted by Catorce View Post
I laugh when people say the "old" 12c.....its a 2012, not a 1980.

Mine is #183, a VERY early build with 22K miles and no issues. All of the latest software updates, 616HP ecu, etc. I was told the early cars were hand built by old F1 engineers and I believe it.

I also have a 570 and the build quality of the 12c is pretty much on par, although the 570 has more bells and whistles.

And as you know from owning a 12c, the Mac still draws a crowd wherever it goes, and can easily dust off any car except for the latest hypercars.
I merely referred to the 'old 12c' with reference to the post above that said he couldn't be paid to own one compared to the recent cars.

My car was even earlier than yours, sub 100 vin and one of the original MTC produced cars. I never believed the hand built by F1 thing though and the highest vin cars (2500+) imo were by a good way the best build quality ones. And yes I always thought Mclaren got their driving dynamics spot on even from day 1 despite the difference in reviews then and now and the 12c was a fantastically capable all round sports car, capable of travelling large distances in comfort and at the flick of a few switches able have a blast of a time on track.
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Old 03-04-2019, 08:34 PM
  #41  
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Originally Posted by 96redLT4 View Post
It seems like many of the true car guys on this board have to eventually scratch the itch of owning an exotic. Its an expensive lesson to teach you how good a car Porsche makes.

J
In all fairness you're on a Porsche forum.

For every owner that came back to Porsche, there's one or more former Porsche owners that went to Ferrari or Lamborghini and never looked back. They just aren't posting on Rennlist.

Also, you can't discount owners that have both a Porsche GT derivative and a Ferrari/Lamborghini/McLaren in their garage.

Just saying.
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Old 03-04-2019, 08:54 PM
  #42  
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I had a 2003 996tt tip, had a 05 lambo gallardo 6 speed at the same time... I found myself driving the Porsche more... it was more of an everyday fast car, but when you drove in the lambo...it felt exotic... drew attention … I have a Ferrari f430 sought of the same feeling as the the lambo… I love porsches and I would like to get a new gt3 rs...but I am thinking the 570s or 600lt mclaren will give the feeling of an exotic , It all depends on what you're looking for... what you will do with the car, street? track? how often you will drive it? etc.... I think we should all just say we are lucky enough to have such problems....lol
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Old 03-04-2019, 09:28 PM
  #43  
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When I was a kid (a while ago), I was drawing F 308s during class instead of listening to the teacher...
I planning to scratch the Italian Itch this summer, tired to think about it ! Heavy? maybe but I dont really care for a road car.

As for the 12C, light for sure. There is one in my friend's shop with a broken engine (cylinder head...). Not very confidence inspiring.

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Old 03-05-2019, 01:28 AM
  #44  
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Originally Posted by Ducati1199 View Post
This is a copy from the 600LT specification. Note base dry weight vs minimum dry weight 2780 - 2749 = 31lbs due to CF options.

Those weights from McLaren are the lightest possible spec, which almost no delivery cars are equipped with.
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Old 03-05-2019, 01:30 AM
  #45  
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It does not matter how many cylinders the cars have- some engines are lighter than others for the following reasons:

1) size...size is displacement not just cylinders
2) harmonic tendencies of engine geometry mean some need sturdier blocks/ pins/ rods/
3) stressed or unstressed structural components
4) metallurgy / density of various internals


Something people complain or question about mclaren is ALSO what makes them so light...

They don't have a traditional mechanical differential...so they save 100lbs right there, or more.

A 3.8L V8 is smaller / more compact then a 4L flat 6. The V8 block needs less raw material (va same sized flat 6) to house all the pieces, plus it needs less harmonic balancing countermeasures. An over 8000rpm flat 6 is always trying to pull itself apart, and you have to secure it with longer bolts etc.

The turbos do weigh something, but if you figure that weight can be offset by some lightweight carpets, and bucket seats...or super light titanium internals on an engine. These are super expensive and have diminishing returns but everything counts for weight.

The Mac tub has an aluminum crash structure for front and rear, and since they are not mounted to traditional fenders and steel, they are more direct and more efficient in terms of weight/ energy absorption. That being said- when you crash a McLaren, pieces go everywhere. The exterior CF pieces and super light fenders tend to splish splash around versus a Porsche which tends to crumple/squish a little more. The McLaren is basically a lighter tubbed CGT...so if you hit something, it's jenga time. the interior, crash structures and fenders on a 911 are completely different.

Ferraris have a lot of leather and thicker carpeting and sound deadening than the mclaren. McLarens don't get as leathery, and most are alcantara which is super light.

Another thing to think about- the interior volume in the McLaren is more like a cayman than a 911. They're pretty small in terms of aperture for the door, like an R8/ Huracan (especially the 12C/ 650/675) compared to a 458/488 or 911. Less interior volume means less reinforcememt or cage needed to maintain structural rigidity.

The tub is a major reason/ but not only because it is so light, but because it allows the parts bolted to it to be super light as well.

McLaren/Ferrari/Porsche are all great vehicles which are fast and fun- not everyone has the palette for each car. We all also have to look at the relative MSRP's for each car- the Performance from a Porsche under 200k is amazing.
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