Ferrari is back on top...
12-15-2018, 04:30 AM
#31
Race Car
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Location: The way to hell is paved by good intentions “Wenn ich Purist höre...entsichere ich meinen Browning” "Myths are fuel for marketing (and nowadays for flippers too,,,)" time to time is not sufficient to be a saint, you must be also an Hero
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12-15-2018, 05:08 AM
#32
Rennlist Member
No matter what the lap times are, there is an elephant in the room with Maclaren. No desrepect all, but they are not an engine manufacturer (I mean true engine manufacturer), which is their biggest problem. They also do not give confidence in their chassis endeavors, as a measly car company like Renault can design engines and better chassis than a Maclaren in F1. I would never buy one, at least for now.
12-15-2018, 09:07 AM
#33
Nordschleife Master
12-15-2018, 09:09 AM
#34
Nordschleife Master
No way that car is legit.
The g-meter registered 2.45g on a 30mph right turn, none of my slicks or Hoosiers have done that in none of my past and present cars. Please, sell me those tires.
At NCM,
1. Senna: 1:23.34 (Trofeo R)
2. GT2RS (Cup2R): 1:24.22
3. ZR1: 1:25.93 (Cup2)
4. 488 Pista: 1:27.39 (3 secs slower than the GT2RS). It was 3,308 lbs on the R&T scales, just 72 lbs lighter than my 991 Turbo S.
With turbochargers, Ferrari technicians can cheat even more than before, then add cheater tires.
The g-meter registered 2.45g on a 30mph right turn, none of my slicks or Hoosiers have done that in none of my past and present cars. Please, sell me those tires.
At NCM,
1. Senna: 1:23.34 (Trofeo R)
2. GT2RS (Cup2R): 1:24.22
3. ZR1: 1:25.93 (Cup2)
4. 488 Pista: 1:27.39 (3 secs slower than the GT2RS). It was 3,308 lbs on the R&T scales, just 72 lbs lighter than my 991 Turbo S.
With turbochargers, Ferrari technicians can cheat even more than before, then add cheater tires.
the times in the table above are more believable.
Last edited by Waxer; 12-15-2018 at 10:36 AM.
12-15-2018, 09:17 AM
#35
Nordschleife Master
The Pista is an amazing car. I saw it in person, it looks fantastic and it sounds even better. The car is fast and all the discussions here about which tires used, etc. seem biased to me. I don't think they had any special tires on the Pista for this test. How would engineers tune a car for a track? They do have ***** like suspension adjustment (within the envelop of what the car came with) and tire pressure, really nothing else. These are completely legit *****; Porsche does the same or have the same leverage, if they choose to do so. There are drivers and tracks that get Pista on top and there are drivers and tracks that get a GT2 RS on top; GT3 RS cannot match lap times of either car. I am a current owner of both brands, Porsche (GT3 /GT3RS) and Ferrari (with Pista en route in 2019); so I have no bias whichever way. I like Porsche's on the track much better than Ferrari's, but not due to better lap times, but the joy of driving I get from Porsche's. The rest is noise, no pun intended!
12-15-2018, 10:03 AM
#36
Race Director
Ferrari either won’t let them or the Pista will be highly tuned and cheated up. Gotta take all these magazine tests with a grain of salt...
12-15-2018, 10:21 AM
#37
Sorry, but Maclaren does not do anything for me.
No matter what the lap times are, there is an elephant in the room with Maclaren. No desrepect all, but they are not an engine manufacturer (I mean true engine manufacturer), which is their biggest problem. They also do not give confidence in their chassis endeavors, as a measly car company like Renault can design engines and better chassis than a Maclaren in F1. I would never buy one, at least for now.
have tou you ever driven one? Try it. You might change your mind.
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JB43 (10-20-2019)
12-15-2018, 10:45 AM
#38
Ferrari is famous for sending ringers to magazine tests. Can't be bothered to dig it up but there was a long thread on Ferrarichat where some F12 owners were going WTF as they couldn't remotely replicate even straight line acceleration figures provided by the manufacturer.
12-15-2018, 10:48 AM
#39
Burning Brakes
The Pista is an amazing car. I saw it in person, it looks fantastic and it sounds even better. The car is fast and all the discussions here about which tires used, etc. seem biased to me. I don't think they had any special tires on the Pista for this test. How would engineers tune a car for a track? They do have ***** like suspension adjustment (within the envelop of what the car came with) and tire pressure, really nothing else. These are completely legit *****; Porsche does the same or have the same leverage, if they choose to do so. There are drivers and tracks that get Pista on top and there are drivers and tracks that get a GT2 RS on top; GT3 RS cannot match lap times of either car. I am a current owner of both brands, Porsche (GT3 /GT3RS) and Ferrari (with Pista en route in 2019); so I have no bias whichever way. I like Porsche's on the track much better than Ferrari's, but not due to better lap times, but the joy of driving I get from Porsche's. The rest is noise, no pun intended!
Do you know that as of December of 2018, there are no street legal tires of any brand producing close to 2.5g of lateral grip on a flat 30mph turn (where downforce has almost no effect)? Fact.
Do you know that with a laptop plugged to the Pista ODB2, you can alter fuel tables, boost levels, timing, on a 3.9 V8 Twin Turbo that can play to over 100Hp, then use 100+ octane fuel and tune for more. They can also shim the lower control arms, add massive amounts of negative camber not attainable with the stock car, provide a car with different spring rates, this is not about adjusting a car as delivered to customers, but providing a car modified at the factory. Fact.
My 599 GTB HGTE could not break under 12s on the 1/4 mile, it was producing a little less than 520whp (I had a Tubi, no cats, and I installed a pair of $$$$$ 599 GTO headers), most 599 customer cars were producing 470-480whp. Trap speeds in the 1/4 mile 121-123mph. However, the 599 GTB press cars were trapping at 131mph. My stock 991 Turbo S and old .1 GT3 RS could not touch 127mph in the 1/4 mile (not even close), but both the Turbo S and GT3RS were quicker (on my Racelogic VBox data) from a roll compared to the 599 numbers. Fact.
Ferrari makes good cars, but their press cars tuning goes beyond cheating, and some customers live by those numbers, only to be given a dose of reality when they place their cars on a racetrack. I'm shopping for another Ferrari currently (had a few in the past and miss them all), but I'm not Porsche biased, I just prefer facts.
...and R&T's 488 Pista ran 144.1 mph on the 1/4 mile. That number doesn't add up, a 3,308 lbs car with 711hp doesn't get there. Recently an 800+ hp modified 991 GT2 RS ran under 140mph, and the 200+ lighter 720S barely touches over 140mph. More cheating from Ferrari, and more facts.
12-15-2018, 11:21 AM
#40
Rennlist Member
Ferrari produced a truly remarkable product in this Turbo engine, naysayers were squelched quite quickly when it arrived.
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JB43 (10-20-2019)
12-15-2018, 03:41 PM
#41
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Maybe there is more lag in GT2 RS due to bigger turbos and higher boost peak, but I just don't see how that would be a problem if you are in the right gear.
12-15-2018, 03:42 PM
#42
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
Throw an exhaust on the Pista and complaints of it not having great sound will go away.
Find me a GT2 RS that sounds remotely close to this good.
Find me a GT2 RS that sounds remotely close to this good.
12-15-2018, 06:54 PM
#43
RL Community Team
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Porsche already accomplished it a while ago. I have not driven GT2 RS yet but even my pedestrian Turbo S in Sport+ mode is giving ~8psi of boost when braking for a corner BEFORE I touch the throttle. Boost never drops to zero, even when gently coasting on a cooldown it's 4-5psi. So there is no possibility of turbo lag when you have the turbo spooled and boost going even before you need it. There is a noticeable lag in Normal mode at lower speeds, when the engine is rumbling on at 1200RPM to save the planet, and punching the throttle takes about a tenth or two for the boost to come in. But you just need to pick if you are saving fuel or enjoying the car. Here is how Porsche accomplishes it. It really works, and it's easy to confirm objectively looking at boost and acceleration data logs.
https://youtu.be/18AP4R_btKI
Maybe there is more lag in GT2 RS due to bigger turbos and higher boost peak, but I just don't see how that would be a problem if you are in the right gear.
https://youtu.be/18AP4R_btKI
Maybe there is more lag in GT2 RS due to bigger turbos and higher boost peak, but I just don't see how that would be a problem if you are in the right gear.
If McLaren could even come 5/10s of the way to what Porsche has done, the Brits would have something on their hands. Maybe if they started building their own engines ...
12-15-2018, 07:19 PM
#44
I've driven the 991.1 TTS, the 991 GT2 RS and the 488. The 488 is significantly better than either of the Porsches in terms of minimizing lag. Not to say the Ferrari doesn't have lag (it is a FI car, after all), just that the throttle response is about as immediate and as linear as one can reasonably expect from a FI engine. That said, Porsche has done a magnificent job with lag in both the TTS and 2RS.
If McLaren could even come 5/10s of the way to what Porsche has done, the Brits would have something on their hands. Maybe if they started building their own engines ...
If McLaren could even come 5/10s of the way to what Porsche has done, the Brits would have something on their hands. Maybe if they started building their own engines ...
12c, 650, even the 570, very laggy. Next time you are in town- drive my 720. No lag.
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JB43 (10-20-2019)
12-15-2018, 07:28 PM
#45
No doubt the Pista is a fantastic car, and so is the 488, but none of them sound better than the 458 or the Speciale. Fact.
Do you know that as of December of 2018, there are no street legal tires of any brand producing close to 2.5g of lateral grip on a flat 30mph turn (where downforce has almost no effect)? Fact.
Do you know that with a laptop plugged to the Pista ODB2, you can alter fuel tables, boost levels, timing, on a 3.9 V8 Twin Turbo that can play to over 100Hp, then use 100+ octane fuel and tune for more. They can also shim the lower control arms, add massive amounts of negative camber not attainable with the stock car, provide a car with different spring rates, this is not about adjusting a car as delivered to customers, but providing a car modified at the factory. Fact.
My 599 GTB HGTE could not break under 12s on the 1/4 mile, it was producing a little less than 520whp (I had a Tubi, no cats, and I installed a pair of $$$$$ 599 GTO headers), most 599 customer cars were producing 470-480whp. Trap speeds in the 1/4 mile 121-123mph. However, the 599 GTB press cars were trapping at 131mph. My stock 991 Turbo S and old .1 GT3 RS could not touch 127mph in the 1/4 mile (not even close), but both the Turbo S and GT3RS were quicker (on my Racelogic VBox data) from a roll compared to the 599 numbers. Fact.
Ferrari makes good cars, but their press cars tuning goes beyond cheating, and some customers live by those numbers, only to be given a dose of reality when they place their cars on a racetrack. I'm shopping for another Ferrari currently (had a few in the past and miss them all), but I'm not Porsche biased, I just prefer facts.
...and R&T's 488 Pista ran 144.1 mph on the 1/4 mile. That number doesn't add up, a 3,308 lbs car with 711hp doesn't get there. Recently an 800+ hp modified 991 GT2 RS ran under 140mph, and the 200+ lighter 720S barely touches over 140mph. More cheating from Ferrari, and more facts.
Do you know that as of December of 2018, there are no street legal tires of any brand producing close to 2.5g of lateral grip on a flat 30mph turn (where downforce has almost no effect)? Fact.
Do you know that with a laptop plugged to the Pista ODB2, you can alter fuel tables, boost levels, timing, on a 3.9 V8 Twin Turbo that can play to over 100Hp, then use 100+ octane fuel and tune for more. They can also shim the lower control arms, add massive amounts of negative camber not attainable with the stock car, provide a car with different spring rates, this is not about adjusting a car as delivered to customers, but providing a car modified at the factory. Fact.
My 599 GTB HGTE could not break under 12s on the 1/4 mile, it was producing a little less than 520whp (I had a Tubi, no cats, and I installed a pair of $$$$$ 599 GTO headers), most 599 customer cars were producing 470-480whp. Trap speeds in the 1/4 mile 121-123mph. However, the 599 GTB press cars were trapping at 131mph. My stock 991 Turbo S and old .1 GT3 RS could not touch 127mph in the 1/4 mile (not even close), but both the Turbo S and GT3RS were quicker (on my Racelogic VBox data) from a roll compared to the 599 numbers. Fact.
Ferrari makes good cars, but their press cars tuning goes beyond cheating, and some customers live by those numbers, only to be given a dose of reality when they place their cars on a racetrack. I'm shopping for another Ferrari currently (had a few in the past and miss them all), but I'm not Porsche biased, I just prefer facts.
...and R&T's 488 Pista ran 144.1 mph on the 1/4 mile. That number doesn't add up, a 3,308 lbs car with 711hp doesn't get there. Recently an 800+ hp modified 991 GT2 RS ran under 140mph, and the 200+ lighter 720S barely touches over 140mph. More cheating from Ferrari, and more facts.
And Porsche cannot use 100+ Octane or add camber or put "special" tires, or play other tricks? How are these FACTS of this test? How do you know? Suspension adjustments on my CS came within the envelope of the car. I am not sure how Pista is; I will find out when I get it, but I am almost sure that no one from Ferrari added crazy camber plates to the car for this test.
The 458 Speciale and 488 are amazingly fast cars. I am sure Pista is even faster given the figures that are published.
Just saying...