Road Atlanta crash
12-05-2018, 07:02 PM
#107
Pro
I emphatically agree even driving 8/10ths unfortunate circumstances are ever present and so having track insurance is a must and having the means to be able to financially take the loss is part of the sport
driving on the track is a lot like a golf swing having a smooth consistent tempo yields best results but even then there is always the chance of an errant shot that ends up in the hazard/ wall. but Just like trying to push an extra few seconds on the track is no different than reaching just a bit further back in your swing trying to get more distance.as most know the possibility of a poor outcome increases, so being able to live with consequences comes with the territory. Most importantly use it as a learning experience and grow from it
for that cheers to the OP for sharing
driving on the track is a lot like a golf swing having a smooth consistent tempo yields best results but even then there is always the chance of an errant shot that ends up in the hazard/ wall. but Just like trying to push an extra few seconds on the track is no different than reaching just a bit further back in your swing trying to get more distance.as most know the possibility of a poor outcome increases, so being able to live with consequences comes with the territory. Most importantly use it as a learning experience and grow from it
for that cheers to the OP for sharing
12-16-2018, 02:46 PM
#110
Rennlist Member
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Mid-Atlantic (on land, not in the middle of the ocean)
Posts: 12,432
Received 3,782 Likes
on
2,190 Posts
Just found this thread … yikes! Rich, glad you and your coach are ok and that you had insurance.
I was safety chair for the largest region of PCA and have been on the scene of many DE crashes and investigated them, and have done well over 200 track days myself, so I'd like to throw in my perspective on safety in general.
The first thing is that we need to do what we can to prevent crashes. There are a lot of facets to that. A big part is developing really good car control. That can only be done safely on dry tracks in slower sections with lots of runoff, where you can deliberately toss the car around a bit at low risk. Other environments for development of car control are wet tracks, snow driving, skidpads, karting, etc. Without really solid car control, trying to flirt with the limits of the car is like playing with fire. I see too many drivers in top run groups who don't have car control commensurate with the pace they're trying to drive.
Another big component of preventing crashes is early recognition of when you've made a significant error and having mentally rehearsed how to handle that. My own scariest incident on track actually happened with Rich in my right seat (yes, the same Rich, the OP!). I was approaching the climbing esses of VIR a bit faster than I had before, and wasn't confident enough that car would hold if I turned in at that speed (well over 100 mph), and didn't want to lose control of the car, so I immediately switched plan B, straightened out my line, put two off on the left, then two off on the right, then rejoined the esses closer to the top. It wasn't a fun experience (Rich's exact words in my earpiece were "OH ****!"), but I knew in advance that doing some offroading under control was a lot better than losing control in those esses. In investigating incidents, I've found that drivers often don't do this sort of mental rehearsal, and instead rely on their instinct to resist going off the track. If you've made an error which is likely to put you off the track, don't fight it, drive it off and try to maintain control. Train yourself to do that with mental rehearsal, and make the effort to study the track runoff areas in advance so that you know what your exit options are (few drivers do that, and figuring it out in real time isn't the best time to do it).
We also need to reduce the consequences if we do crash. Don't muddle up the thinking here by mixing up crash prevention with mitigation of crash consequences. Just assume that you're going to crash at some point at high speed, whether due to your own error or something out of your control, and develop your safety system accordingly. For our Porsche GT cars driven on the street, if you're driving them past the early student groups on track, that safety equipment generally means roll bar, harnesses, helmet, and head/neck restraint. This isn't as safe as a race car, but Rich's incident and many others shows us that in DE crashes, while cars may get badly banged up or totaled, it's the norm for drivers to have only minor injuries at most, and serious injuries and fatalities are rare. I personally am comfortable with continuing to track my GT3, and my wife continuing to track her GT4, and am still not inclined to go the route of a race car for DE, though I've considered it many times. But I've also concluded that a 991.1 GT3 on Cup 2 is plenty fast for me, and I've resisted the temptation to upgrade to a newer/faster GT car or put grippier tires on my car.
The last point I'll offer is that risk of losing control of the car, especially for us non-pros, goes up quite quickly as we reach the limits of our ability and the car's ability. I wouldn't be satisfied with driving my GT3 at 8/10ths, and would find that boring and a waste of money and consumables. But I'm generally content to be about 1 sec per lap slower than the best I'm capable of - that's fast enough to get me fully engaged and having fun, but reduces my chance of losing control considerably. And when I'm especially tired, or the track conditions aren't ideal, or the tires aren't behaving well, or the drivers around me don't seem to have their act together, or something just doesn't feel right in a vague sense, I do dial it back further. Awareness of self, our car, and the driving environment is really important for making good judgments and decisions on track.
Rich, I hope to see you back at the track. I would be glad to get back in your right seat, whether in a street car or race car.
I was safety chair for the largest region of PCA and have been on the scene of many DE crashes and investigated them, and have done well over 200 track days myself, so I'd like to throw in my perspective on safety in general.
The first thing is that we need to do what we can to prevent crashes. There are a lot of facets to that. A big part is developing really good car control. That can only be done safely on dry tracks in slower sections with lots of runoff, where you can deliberately toss the car around a bit at low risk. Other environments for development of car control are wet tracks, snow driving, skidpads, karting, etc. Without really solid car control, trying to flirt with the limits of the car is like playing with fire. I see too many drivers in top run groups who don't have car control commensurate with the pace they're trying to drive.
Another big component of preventing crashes is early recognition of when you've made a significant error and having mentally rehearsed how to handle that. My own scariest incident on track actually happened with Rich in my right seat (yes, the same Rich, the OP!). I was approaching the climbing esses of VIR a bit faster than I had before, and wasn't confident enough that car would hold if I turned in at that speed (well over 100 mph), and didn't want to lose control of the car, so I immediately switched plan B, straightened out my line, put two off on the left, then two off on the right, then rejoined the esses closer to the top. It wasn't a fun experience (Rich's exact words in my earpiece were "OH ****!"), but I knew in advance that doing some offroading under control was a lot better than losing control in those esses. In investigating incidents, I've found that drivers often don't do this sort of mental rehearsal, and instead rely on their instinct to resist going off the track. If you've made an error which is likely to put you off the track, don't fight it, drive it off and try to maintain control. Train yourself to do that with mental rehearsal, and make the effort to study the track runoff areas in advance so that you know what your exit options are (few drivers do that, and figuring it out in real time isn't the best time to do it).
We also need to reduce the consequences if we do crash. Don't muddle up the thinking here by mixing up crash prevention with mitigation of crash consequences. Just assume that you're going to crash at some point at high speed, whether due to your own error or something out of your control, and develop your safety system accordingly. For our Porsche GT cars driven on the street, if you're driving them past the early student groups on track, that safety equipment generally means roll bar, harnesses, helmet, and head/neck restraint. This isn't as safe as a race car, but Rich's incident and many others shows us that in DE crashes, while cars may get badly banged up or totaled, it's the norm for drivers to have only minor injuries at most, and serious injuries and fatalities are rare. I personally am comfortable with continuing to track my GT3, and my wife continuing to track her GT4, and am still not inclined to go the route of a race car for DE, though I've considered it many times. But I've also concluded that a 991.1 GT3 on Cup 2 is plenty fast for me, and I've resisted the temptation to upgrade to a newer/faster GT car or put grippier tires on my car.
The last point I'll offer is that risk of losing control of the car, especially for us non-pros, goes up quite quickly as we reach the limits of our ability and the car's ability. I wouldn't be satisfied with driving my GT3 at 8/10ths, and would find that boring and a waste of money and consumables. But I'm generally content to be about 1 sec per lap slower than the best I'm capable of - that's fast enough to get me fully engaged and having fun, but reduces my chance of losing control considerably. And when I'm especially tired, or the track conditions aren't ideal, or the tires aren't behaving well, or the drivers around me don't seem to have their act together, or something just doesn't feel right in a vague sense, I do dial it back further. Awareness of self, our car, and the driving environment is really important for making good judgments and decisions on track.
Rich, I hope to see you back at the track. I would be glad to get back in your right seat, whether in a street car or race car.
12-16-2018, 03:47 PM
#112
Drifting
^ Manifold great post and valuable insight , I had similar occurrence at VIR my first event there a few years back in my 997.2 , heading down the back straight kept my foot in it a bit to long heading into T-1 and felt I was carrying to much speed safely make the turn so I braked hard
at first and then modulated and went straight off , no harm lots of run off on the bow eased back on and eased around the lap to pit in and
check w/ Pit Stewart . that was the turn I learned the most from for the day .
at first and then modulated and went straight off , no harm lots of run off on the bow eased back on and eased around the lap to pit in and
check w/ Pit Stewart . that was the turn I learned the most from for the day .