Road Atlanta crash
11-30-2018, 11:36 AM
#61
Ok man Rich that sucks. Glad both of you are ok. Yeah turn 4 falls away and depending on car will either push or over rotate. Hope you come back. Get a Radical there are 5 of us now at Dcra. Gonna do some club racing. You would love it.
Last edited by hughp3; 12-03-2018 at 12:29 PM.
11-30-2018, 11:41 AM
#62
Addict
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
However, I'm feeling much more secure driving the GT3 at our little track. It's fast enough to be fun and the relative lack of walls and other obstacles to hit is welcome. It's obviously still possible to hurt yourself or your car, so all the same cautions apply. But I think the need for a fully prepped race car may be somewhat reduced (hope I'm not being too naïve here).
11-30-2018, 11:50 AM
#63
Rennlist Member
You put your car on a track, you need to be willing to write it off every time. Period. But i will say that HPR is a whole lot more forgiving, with tons of runoff. So while it won’t save you from everything, the risk of HPR vs something like Road Atlanta is night and day. Road Atlanta, Sebring, Road America, Spa, Ring, etc are all big boy tracks. I have no illusions about my abilities. If i were ever going to try one of those tracks, spec miata here i come.
11-30-2018, 11:58 AM
#64
Nordschleife Master
I have had all three.
street car: if you put a roll bar in, it's better than nothing, but today's GT3 are way too fast imo and I rather not hit the wall at 150 with just a roll bar. a full cage would be better. but that is no longer a street car. the only benefit you might had over full on race car is you can DRIVE it rather than tow it to track, but the drive would be painful
cup car: the maintenance is $$$ and it really isn't a car you can maintain by yourself. also when on track, you would likely need one other person to help you full time (thats just for DE, for racing, you need 2 tech on it )
GT4CS: you can maintain your self on and off track. really easy, but nevertheless you still need to tow it. owenverhsip cost is cheap.
cup vs CS?
well cup is faster for sure and rear engine dynamic. however, it think in DE environment it's too fast. you will hit traffic every turn so not fun. CS way less power you have to work it hard to get by RS's. if you have more questions, feel free to ping me
street car: if you put a roll bar in, it's better than nothing, but today's GT3 are way too fast imo and I rather not hit the wall at 150 with just a roll bar. a full cage would be better. but that is no longer a street car. the only benefit you might had over full on race car is you can DRIVE it rather than tow it to track, but the drive would be painful
cup car: the maintenance is $$$ and it really isn't a car you can maintain by yourself. also when on track, you would likely need one other person to help you full time (thats just for DE, for racing, you need 2 tech on it )
GT4CS: you can maintain your self on and off track. really easy, but nevertheless you still need to tow it. owenverhsip cost is cheap.
cup vs CS?
well cup is faster for sure and rear engine dynamic. however, it think in DE environment it's too fast. you will hit traffic every turn so not fun. CS way less power you have to work it hard to get by RS's. if you have more questions, feel free to ping me
Clubsport is only cheaper on motor re-builds....all the other stuff times out the same.
Race cars are pay to play....and burn money.....ive raced 996 cup, 997 cup and a vintage RSR clone.....Burned $120K in a year to run vintage car in HSR (and got a watch LOL)
Race cars are safer...as I crashed the 996 cup HARD into T1 sebring (right axle snapped at Apex into outside wall at full speed) and Vintage car HARD into wall at Savannah Harbor (braided brake line blew and lost brakes into wall). Walked away form both with wife watching.
Street cars, not caged are not safe...they are designed for street car speed wrecks with crumple zones.
Street cars still have time outs on items....and the higher grip tire you run the faster your car times out
DE is fun....but keep your car stock and drive it 8/10ths
Stability control is great if you are under its limits....as soon as you get above them it takes skill most don't have
Im going back to DE...leaving my car bone stock...drive it 8/10ths.....its really about drinking beer with friends after and telling lies. I dont care how fast I am anymore
Rich...sorry to hear about your wreck...as I dont know you but have been in your shoes. I quit for a few years after my last wreck...problem is I love cars....just not enough to risk loosing them anymore
11-30-2018, 12:02 PM
#65
Rennlist Member
Rich I am so glad you and the passenger were okay and not hurt. Your writeup on this crash is a good one because you were humble in writing it showing us many different insights into what happens when we track our cars. The end result is always something that is possible when we dedicate a car to track only duty and go for the last few tenths of time available to the car. You are one of the quickest drivers I have seen in a stock GT3 so you were definitely using the cars for what they are worth. I am glad you have enjoyed doing this but I am mainly glad you were able to tell us your story and I hope to see you at the track again.
11-30-2018, 12:03 PM
#66
Race Director
Yeah, I learned to track drive around year 2000 at HPR's predecessor (Second Creek Raceway which was near DIA Airport). It was like a go-kart track compared to HPR (and I had my 911 specially geared to match its very slow corners and short straights). Then they built HPR to replace it and it felt so much faster (with some interesting elevation changes). I had my gearing adjusted again for the new track. Then I visited Nurburgring for the first time in 2015 and it was shocking. The speeds seemed twice as high, the elevation changes 10 times greater, and the run-off areas 99% smaller (with Armco to hit instead of open grassy areas). It doesn't even feel like the same sport - entirely different with an exponentially higher risk (and excitement).
However, I'm feeling much more secure driving the GT3 at our little track. It's fast enough to be fun and the relative lack of walls and other obstacles to hit is welcome. It's obviously still possible to hurt yourself or your car, so all the same cautions apply. But I think the need for a fully prepped race car may be somewhat reduced (hope I'm not being too naïve here).
However, I'm feeling much more secure driving the GT3 at our little track. It's fast enough to be fun and the relative lack of walls and other obstacles to hit is welcome. It's obviously still possible to hurt yourself or your car, so all the same cautions apply. But I think the need for a fully prepped race car may be somewhat reduced (hope I'm not being too naïve here).
11-30-2018, 12:07 PM
#67
Rennlist Member
I'll be honest. I've never liked Road Atlanta. When I drive south, I go to Barber. For me, it's a much more fun, technical track with lower speeds and less risk. I quit going to RA years ago.
I know a lot of people love it for it's "old school", high speed style, but high speeds aren't what do it for me. Turns are what I like, and for me, RA doesn't really have any turns I categorize as "fun". Most of them just seem like a test of how much commitment you have. When you are pro-racing in somebody else's car, I'm sure it's a fun challenge (and why they all talk about how great RA is), but when you are in your own 100K+ car, not so much...….
I know a lot of people love it for it's "old school", high speed style, but high speeds aren't what do it for me. Turns are what I like, and for me, RA doesn't really have any turns I categorize as "fun". Most of them just seem like a test of how much commitment you have. When you are pro-racing in somebody else's car, I'm sure it's a fun challenge (and why they all talk about how great RA is), but when you are in your own 100K+ car, not so much...….
Peter
11-30-2018, 12:08 PM
#68
Drifting
its been quite sobering to read all these responses. appreciate everyone's honest input. obviously we all love this past time and the rush that comes with it, however the risk is quite significant. however, I have had friends sustain head injuries playing softball, serious leg injuries playing basketball, so there is always risk in no matter what we do. In my future track outings, I think I will not be so eager to chase lap times and just enjoy the car, the scenery and the company of those friends who appreciate cars like I do. It seems like chasing that last 0.5 second leads to mistakes. Trying to go Barber next month, so will see how that goes. thanks all.
11-30-2018, 12:08 PM
#69
Racer
I'm so sorry about your accident. Worse than the accident was probably the fact that your wife was there to witness it. I had an incident over the summer, not as bad as this but came away with the exact conclusions. Driving at this level at these speeds you need to be in a fully prepped race car. These street cars have become so fast over the years but at the end of the day they're not designed for this kind of impact. Glad you're ok and good luck to you.
11-30-2018, 12:13 PM
#70
Race Director
Agreed. When i was going through my mid-life crisis a couple of years back and decided i wanted to drive my car on every track i could, i saw Road Atlanta, Road America, Sebring, COTA and Laguna Seca as just “better” tracks to go to. Wrong. Those tracks are above my pay grade. Heck, HPR is very challenging to me. I have a long way to go! Road Atlanta? Next life.
11-30-2018, 12:15 PM
#71
Nordschleife Master
most dangerous for the car or you
Road Atlanta has guard rails
Roebling has trees....trees kill people
11-30-2018, 02:16 PM
#73
long rambling
So many great insights and perspectives. It is very helpful to really re-think all of this.
I grew up loving all things Porsche! One of my best childhood memories is when I was 11 years old and my dad and I test drove 1982 Grand Prix white with blue leather interior 911 SC targa. He owned several 911’s and I grew up with that being one of the common interests we were able to share. Fast forward to 2013, I have not had a sports car since high school. Married with 5 kids and working like a dog as an orthopedic surgeon, my wife tells me I need a hobby. She gets me a membership with Chin for Christmas and tells me to go buy a sports car. Wahoo! What an incredible, expensive and totally awesome hobby!
I have progressed really quickly in skill likely due to following sound advice on this forum and many of the friends that I have made at the track. Everyone in the sport has told me to invest in safety and training. I have read Ross Bentley’s speed secrets, completed Motorsports safety foundation instructor training, and attended 3 Porsche advanced driving schools as well as other sim training and car control experiences.
I had my first and only crash in an arrive and drive spec Boxster S at NCM in 2015. I lost the rear on a high speed sweeper and did a spin off into the tire wall. There was a Z06 that I would catch in the corners and then he would not give a pass and floor it down the straights. It was not a real “red mist” moment, but I was just trying to drive the crap out of a slower car and get the pass. Thankfully no one was hurt and the car damage was minimal. It could have been a lot worse! Scared the crap out of me and I considered giving it all up and finding some other hobby.
However my kids (especially my 3 boys) begged me to not stop. Tracking Porsches has become a great bonding experience with my boys. So I decided to sell the turbo S and get a more track focused car with more safety (half cage, HANS, racing seat, six points) 991.1 GT3. As skill has improved, I am pushing the limits more and more. Best times in the .1 (133 RA, 135 Barber, 214 NCM). As I have gotten faster, many of the instructors and track buddies have been strongly urging me to get a fully prepared racecar with all the safety equipment. They’re warning me that if I keep driving the GT3 at the limits, that I am going to have an incident at some point. With the speed of a GT3, the consequences could be huge. I just got my .2 GT3 and I was at Rd Atlanta with Rich on Saturday. It was my second time on track with it and first time back at Rd Atlanta. It was wet and cold most of the day and the stock cup 2’s just did not feel right. I didn’t feel comfortable with the way the car felt and never did faster than a 135 lap. It’s one of the first times that I have intentionally just dialed it back and just enjoyed being out there (with my 16 yo son riding passenger) and getting to know my car without chasing my fastest lap possible. It’s hard to do, especially as I watched Rich, Peter, and Jamie blow my doors off! As Rich mentioned, most of us are highly competitive perfectionists who measure success by being able to squeeze every ounce of performance out of our cars. It’s very rewarding to consistently hit every mark, trail brake correctly, carry apex speed and then feel the torque of that awesome engine as you get back on the power. No wonder so many of us love tracking GT3’s.
I have been hesitant to go with a racecar. I have driven boxsters, caymans, M3’s, M4’s, regular 911’s, turbos, GT4’s, GT3’s and GT4CS on track. Hands down the most fun I have had is the GT3. Even though I love the grip of the Clubsport, I miss the GT3 engine. I love trail braking a rear engine car. I cannot afford the maintenance of a Cup car and I do not have time or equipment to do things myself. I also like having a car that I can take the boys on occasional joy rides on the street.
Rich’s accident really has me re-evaluating everything. I don’t think I will ever get into competitive racing although it looks like a lot of fun. Time constraints with career and family responsibilities are too much to add that to my plate. I will have to be content with squeezing in HPDE events as time allows. My ideal car would probably be a Cupcar with a .2 drivetrain that doesn’t require all the maintenance. I don’t feel great about turning my brand new .2 into a fully caged racecar. I guess I could sell the .2, go with a Clubsport and just get a less expensive street 911 for street driving (can’t currently afford have both .2 GT3 and Clubsport).
I have considered getting back into other past hobbies. I don’t play golf or fish. I used enjoy Mountain-biking, Rd biking, and climbing, All have there own risks. I have 2 buddies with severe injuries from mountain biking in the past couple of years (one a quadriplegic from a C2 fracture the other a brain injury from a branch going past his safety glasses and through his eyeball). I have had multiple friends with horrible rd biking injuries. I guess I could just forget all hobbies and just work and read!
Anyway, sorry for rambling all my thoughts on a forum.
I look forward to hearing others thoughts and to see where Rich lands. Once again, so glad you were not injured.
I grew up loving all things Porsche! One of my best childhood memories is when I was 11 years old and my dad and I test drove 1982 Grand Prix white with blue leather interior 911 SC targa. He owned several 911’s and I grew up with that being one of the common interests we were able to share. Fast forward to 2013, I have not had a sports car since high school. Married with 5 kids and working like a dog as an orthopedic surgeon, my wife tells me I need a hobby. She gets me a membership with Chin for Christmas and tells me to go buy a sports car. Wahoo! What an incredible, expensive and totally awesome hobby!
I have progressed really quickly in skill likely due to following sound advice on this forum and many of the friends that I have made at the track. Everyone in the sport has told me to invest in safety and training. I have read Ross Bentley’s speed secrets, completed Motorsports safety foundation instructor training, and attended 3 Porsche advanced driving schools as well as other sim training and car control experiences.
I had my first and only crash in an arrive and drive spec Boxster S at NCM in 2015. I lost the rear on a high speed sweeper and did a spin off into the tire wall. There was a Z06 that I would catch in the corners and then he would not give a pass and floor it down the straights. It was not a real “red mist” moment, but I was just trying to drive the crap out of a slower car and get the pass. Thankfully no one was hurt and the car damage was minimal. It could have been a lot worse! Scared the crap out of me and I considered giving it all up and finding some other hobby.
However my kids (especially my 3 boys) begged me to not stop. Tracking Porsches has become a great bonding experience with my boys. So I decided to sell the turbo S and get a more track focused car with more safety (half cage, HANS, racing seat, six points) 991.1 GT3. As skill has improved, I am pushing the limits more and more. Best times in the .1 (133 RA, 135 Barber, 214 NCM). As I have gotten faster, many of the instructors and track buddies have been strongly urging me to get a fully prepared racecar with all the safety equipment. They’re warning me that if I keep driving the GT3 at the limits, that I am going to have an incident at some point. With the speed of a GT3, the consequences could be huge. I just got my .2 GT3 and I was at Rd Atlanta with Rich on Saturday. It was my second time on track with it and first time back at Rd Atlanta. It was wet and cold most of the day and the stock cup 2’s just did not feel right. I didn’t feel comfortable with the way the car felt and never did faster than a 135 lap. It’s one of the first times that I have intentionally just dialed it back and just enjoyed being out there (with my 16 yo son riding passenger) and getting to know my car without chasing my fastest lap possible. It’s hard to do, especially as I watched Rich, Peter, and Jamie blow my doors off! As Rich mentioned, most of us are highly competitive perfectionists who measure success by being able to squeeze every ounce of performance out of our cars. It’s very rewarding to consistently hit every mark, trail brake correctly, carry apex speed and then feel the torque of that awesome engine as you get back on the power. No wonder so many of us love tracking GT3’s.
I have been hesitant to go with a racecar. I have driven boxsters, caymans, M3’s, M4’s, regular 911’s, turbos, GT4’s, GT3’s and GT4CS on track. Hands down the most fun I have had is the GT3. Even though I love the grip of the Clubsport, I miss the GT3 engine. I love trail braking a rear engine car. I cannot afford the maintenance of a Cup car and I do not have time or equipment to do things myself. I also like having a car that I can take the boys on occasional joy rides on the street.
Rich’s accident really has me re-evaluating everything. I don’t think I will ever get into competitive racing although it looks like a lot of fun. Time constraints with career and family responsibilities are too much to add that to my plate. I will have to be content with squeezing in HPDE events as time allows. My ideal car would probably be a Cupcar with a .2 drivetrain that doesn’t require all the maintenance. I don’t feel great about turning my brand new .2 into a fully caged racecar. I guess I could sell the .2, go with a Clubsport and just get a less expensive street 911 for street driving (can’t currently afford have both .2 GT3 and Clubsport).
I have considered getting back into other past hobbies. I don’t play golf or fish. I used enjoy Mountain-biking, Rd biking, and climbing, All have there own risks. I have 2 buddies with severe injuries from mountain biking in the past couple of years (one a quadriplegic from a C2 fracture the other a brain injury from a branch going past his safety glasses and through his eyeball). I have had multiple friends with horrible rd biking injuries. I guess I could just forget all hobbies and just work and read!
Anyway, sorry for rambling all my thoughts on a forum.
I look forward to hearing others thoughts and to see where Rich lands. Once again, so glad you were not injured.
.
11-30-2018, 04:10 PM
#75
So glad you and your coach are ok. I was at the course also. My first time at RA so I also hired a coach for a session.
I didn't even know out your incident until I read it here. Between the rain and fog it was a bit of a dreary event.
I didn't even know out your incident until I read it here. Between the rain and fog it was a bit of a dreary event.