fjpdds

Excellent sharing and lesson.

soulsea

It's an interesting philosophical proposition.

We drive on the road exponentially more often than on track, and from what I understand the track, despite the speeds, is statistically a safer place to be because of the controlled environment. Yet it's not like we wear harnesses and helmets on the road, never mind have a full cage, because it is perceived as 'too much' safety to be convenient.

My point isn't to say that we shouldn't do all we can to focus on safety whilst on track, so yes by all means get the safest possible setup even it it means a race car ... but to do it more so than on the street seems illogical. We all sustain varying degrees of cognitive dissonance relative to safety in our daily lives (some necessary as one can't live in permanent fear of what might happen), so it isn't surprising that this applies to the track as well. The fact that we don't take more precautions when we are statistically in a lot more danger is telling ... I've followed people who were texting and occasionally driving on the way to track their race cars, you know, because they are excellent drivers. Fact is the only time true awareness comes in for most people is when an event like this happens to bridge the gap between reality and said cognitive dissonance, but even then it is usually limited to that singular activity, leaving all other delusions of safety intact.

Ultimately this went as well as it could have for the OP partially because he was driving a street legal car with the tolerances built in for track use, because of his own initiatives to make the car even safer, and fortune ... under the circumstances I'd consider it a great day.

As far as what the takeaway is and what lessons are to be learned, that's a personal thing, and even then it is rarely consistent across all aspects of one's life ... that being the case, picking and choosing arbitrarily when to impose more safety might give one a sense of increased safety, but unless that ethos is consistently applied across the board it is limited to that one singular activity, and next thing you know a poorly executed foreplay experiment does you in. #sexhelmetssavelives

IvanBurns

Rich - thank you for sharing your insights from what you learned from this incident. Everyone that knows you (including me) knows that you are a terrific driver, and it’s sobering to see that bad things can happen to the best.

When driving on the edge, as you do, the smallest error, the smallest lapse in focus, or the smallest thing out of your control can lead to an unrecoverable situation. I’m most thankful that you’re OK and that you have insurance coverage.

The thing that I most hope for now is that you decide to get back on the track. With the safest car you can get, and the sooner the better! OK? Please?

IvanBurns

Rich has made a powerful case for settling for nothing less than a fully prepped race car.

That has hit home for me, and thus I’d like to solicit opinions from Rich and others as to the pros and cons of options for acquiring a fully prepped race car.

I have a 991.1 GT3 RS (and several other 911s). I can think of three basic options for a fully prepped race car. These include 1) a Cup Car, 2) a GT4 Clubsport, and 3) race prepping my own GT3 RS. What do others think about these options?

I can handle the cost of acquiring and maintaining a Cup Car, so that is a realistic option for me. My biggest concern for this option would be the time-consuming hassle of maintaining a Cup Car, even if others are doing the work. I already spend too much time getting my various cars maintained. Am I being over-concerned about this, since I would just be doing HPDE driving and not competitive racing?

How about the GT4 Clubsport? Obviously, that is a very popular option, given the numbers that I see on the track. My main concern with the Clubsport is that it would be a letdown for me, given the adrenalin rush that I get from driving the GT3 RS. And a GT3 before that. I have been driving 911s since 1969 (that’s not a typo), and I love the feel of the rear end weight distribution. And I don’t think that the Clubsport engine could match up to the beastly 991 engine. Am I wrong here? Do I need to drive a Clubsport to settle these questions?

And what about race prepping my GT3 RS? It already has a GMG roll bar, Recaro seats, and Schroth harnesses. The next big step up would be a full cage. What else would be important? I could see stripping the car to lose weight, but that’s not a safety feature. I suppose that doing all of this would impact the resale value of the RS, but that’s not a big issue for me. I plan to drive it, not resell it.

Insights and opinions would be appreciated.

Carcam

pkh

I'll add my bit, if you want all details they are here: https://rennlist.com/forums/racing-a...big-crash.html

Short version: Crashed a very well prepped E46 M3 race car in a endurance race when one of the rear control arms broke, this was only a few weeks ago. I was simply going down the straight at PIR when it came completely lose and caused me to spin and crash.

I primarily drive my GT4 on track. I certainly think the age and wear on the car played a factor in this car crashing, but that aside, **** happens. Just look at the oil spill crash / fatality at Laguna.

I suffered a concussion which I am still dealing with a month later. Dizzy spells when I get up or lay down. Without my Hans I shudder to think what would have happened.

So my lessons learned is the more safety the better, and even then you are never safe, even when you are going down the straightaway in a race car.

Before




After

GT345

Very sad story when anyone crashes/losses their car but it is the nature of the beast and you need to have the mind set that your willing to walk away from the car unless you get insurance which in itself can be very expensive.

Modern street cars are actually more safe then people give them credit for since they have air bags, race cars do not and if you add other safety features such as roll bars, harnesses, hans, and good gear, you're just as safe as in a real race car keeping in mind you are not doing club racing in a street car.

Weird things can happen when your on the track from tire issues, engine issues, car issues, oil/coolant so anything can happen at any time without any warning.

Ironically your story is very similar to mine, been tracking a 991.1 RS for the last couple years, passionate about reading my data, watching my videos and keep working on chipping away at my lap times at the tracks I go to, only difference is i have never bought track insurance.

Was lucky enough to get an allocation for a .2 RS which I should receive in 2 or 3 weeks, anxiously waiting for it to arrive so I can take it to the track.

Then about 2 weeks ago i had some strange revaluation thinking I will never be as fast as I want to be in that car because I care about it to much, meaning in the last 2 years of me tracking the car I have never once gone off track because I do not want to hurt the car, and that alone has to be slowing me down a couple seconds.

So even though I got this .2 coming, I found a 2016 GT4 Clubsport over seas with only 40 miles on it so I bought it, now waiting for that as well... Rough life I know!

Looking forward to driving a real FACTORY race car, and that is another big difference as far as safety and reliability then a street car made into a race car IMHO.

One thing I will say about living in the west coast, our tracks over here don't have so many WALLS, most are in the desert so when you go off your on compact sand so not as scary.

Your car can be replaced but the most important part is your spirit is in tact and this incident doesn't stop you from doing what you love to do because that would be the real tragedy here if it did.

mooty

I have had all three.
street car: if you put a roll bar in, it's better than nothing, but today's GT3 are way too fast imo and I rather not hit the wall at 150 with just a roll bar. a full cage would be better. but that is no longer a street car. the only benefit you might had over full on race car is you can DRIVE it rather than tow it to track, but the drive would be painful

cup car: the maintenance is $$$ and it really isn't a car you can maintain by yourself. also when on track, you would likely need one other person to help you full time (thats just for DE, for racing, you need 2 tech on it )

GT4CS: you can maintain your self on and off track. really easy, but nevertheless you still need to tow it. owenverhsip cost is cheap.

cup vs CS?
well cup is faster for sure and rear engine dynamic. however, it think in DE environment it's too fast. you will hit traffic every turn so not fun. CS way less power you have to work it hard to get by RS's. if you have more questions, feel free to ping me

Mvez

I'll be honest. I've never liked Road Atlanta. When I drive south, I go to Barber. For me, it's a much more fun, technical track with lower speeds and less risk. I quit going to RA years ago.

I know a lot of people love it for it's "old school", high speed style, but high speeds aren't what do it for me. Turns are what I like, and for me, RA doesn't really have any turns I categorize as "fun". Most of them just seem like a test of how much commitment you have. When you are pro-racing in somebody else's car, I'm sure it's a fun challenge (and why they all talk about how great RA is), but when you are in your own 100K+ car, not so much...….

TRAKCAR

RossP

One thing thats important to acknowledge here is how fast a 1:30 lap at RA is. People who have driven the track know, but for those who havent, that sort of time is hauling ***, especially in a street car.

orthojoe

Aw crud. Sorry to hear this. Unfortunately that is the nature of the sport and nobody is immune. Glad you are ok. This is one of the reasons I'm backing off on DE's and have moved onto racing spec miata. You can only get into so much trouble with 115hp and the repair bills are much easier to swallow, but the fun and rush of racing is exponentially higher than DEs

tonymission

I hate to hear this Rich, but I'm glad you and your passenger are OK.
You brought up some interesting points and it reminds me of the last time I was going hard at AMP and why I've only been back a couple times with a lot less enthusiasm.
I'm normally a 1:32-33 guy at AMP (not a lot of track experience to this point), but I had been riding with Sean and Hugh that day and finding more spots on the track where I wasn't hitting the limit of the car based on what these guys were doing. I thought "man, I'm leaving at least 4-5 seconds out there, I can get down to 1:28-29s". So I get back in my car for another session and hit high 1:30 a few times. OK, I'm getting there. Come back in for a short rest, but totally excited to get below 1:30....... it's a super hot day, the track is grimy and slick with rubber and I'm getting closer and closer. On my 14th lap, my mind was mush (how do you guys endurance race?? Sheesh!) and my tires slimy... going into T16, I lose my focus a little bit and cut a little too tight over the curb, maybe touching some grass and getting a little air on the right side. At that point I didn't want to correct and came across the straight away at the wrong angle and my highest speed on the lap. I still wasn't trending in the right direction and I had to do something before heading into the sand/wall... so I stay on the gas and force the car right a bit (against physics, but no other choice) and the rear starts to push out at speed... not a good feeling for a new guy at the track. I throttle through it, getting all squirrely and save myself and the car before coasting to the end of the straight and doing a 15 MPH lap to cool down my heart rate and PCCBs.

I come back to the pit and just start thinking: what the hell am I doing? I have three kids at home and they aren't giving me a damn trophy if I hit 1:29 out here. What does that get me? Then what, just keep pushing even harder for 1:28? Then 1:27? At what point does it not work out for me? At what point will I be satisfied? As someone said above, if you're out at the track enough, at some point, something is going to happen. It's something I struggle with mentally right now. I love doing it -- but what's the benefit -- can I still fix my adrenaline need without facing death or putting my family in a situation where they might not have their dad & husband anymore? Does OpenTrack sell life insurance? Ugh.

Serge944

Your health is the most important following an accident, so I'm glad you are ok. Luckily the 991 is an extremely safe platform and can take a really good hit.

Unfortunately the uncertainty of track driving is a lesson nobody truly learns until it happens to them. Many drive conservatively to avoid running out of talent, but that won't avoid a track incident. The potential of mechanical failure, not receiving fair warning of a hazard up ahead, debris or fluids on track - all are elements out of your control.

While the lesson of going off due to a mistake is a good one, it still doesn't prepare you for the moment when you're a passenger behind the wheel through no apparent fault of your own.

robmypro