Road Atlanta crash
11-29-2018, 02:31 PM
#31
Been there. Hard to walk away and hard to not second guess why you didn't quit the day before, but life goes on. Glad you and your passenger weren't injured. That's all that's really important.
11-29-2018, 02:37 PM
#32
Glad you and your coach are ok OP
11-29-2018, 03:21 PM
#34
Rich, I am thankful you and coach are okay. I have been having the same exact internal dialogue about tracking my GT3. My family and I have enjoyed getting to know you and your wife at the track and it’s always fun watching you get every little bit out of your car.
After hearing about your incident, I am likely going to consider going to a Clubsport. I have already signed up for Sebring in January in the GT3. I will likely dial it back and then decide what to do for next track season. I have thought about a Radical, but doesn’t seem as safe as a Clubsport. Besides, I want to stay in a Porsche.
After hearing about your incident, I am likely going to consider going to a Clubsport. I have already signed up for Sebring in January in the GT3. I will likely dial it back and then decide what to do for next track season. I have thought about a Radical, but doesn’t seem as safe as a Clubsport. Besides, I want to stay in a Porsche.
11-29-2018, 04:21 PM
#35
Racer
Funny I was just watching a youtube video (as you do) last night and watched another 911 lose it between 4 & 5 at RA. In the video it looked like lift-off oversteer but in any case I think that part of the track can pose a challenge for 911 rear-engine physics being downhill, bumpy and with direction changes.
If you are looking for a race-prepped car may I humbly suggest a MX5 Cup. I promise you will not have even the slightest bit less fun in it (from one GT3 owner to another) and without a doubt it has made me a better driver. There's a new one coming out any day now.
Here's the other video (hope its not still too raw for OP to watch):
If you are looking for a race-prepped car may I humbly suggest a MX5 Cup. I promise you will not have even the slightest bit less fun in it (from one GT3 owner to another) and without a doubt it has made me a better driver. There's a new one coming out any day now.
Here's the other video (hope its not still too raw for OP to watch):
11-29-2018, 04:40 PM
#36
Rich, I am thankful you and coach are okay. I have been having the same exact internal dialogue about tracking my GT3. My family and I have enjoyed getting to know you and your wife at the track and it’s always fun watching you get every little bit out of your car.
After hearing about your incident, I am likely going to consider going to a Clubsport. I have already signed up for Sebring in January in the GT3. I will likely dial it back and then decide what to do for next track season. I have thought about a Radical, but doesn’t seem as safe as a Clubsport. Besides, I want to stay in a Porsche.
After hearing about your incident, I am likely going to consider going to a Clubsport. I have already signed up for Sebring in January in the GT3. I will likely dial it back and then decide what to do for next track season. I have thought about a Radical, but doesn’t seem as safe as a Clubsport. Besides, I want to stay in a Porsche.
I appreciate Rich's willingness to share this incident with everyone.
11-29-2018, 05:28 PM
#37
Rennlist Member
The other variable that might have been relevant is that I had been driving my Cayman after my first GT3 caught fire, and prior to getting back into my .2 GT3. I built up a lot of kinesthetic memory for that mid-engine platform, which I believe would have been more forgiving in this particular scenario. That may have skewed my perception of the limits of the .2 GT3.
That's a real thing though, and certainly can be a contributing factor. It's not easy bouncing from one car to the next, and doing it at a high level. Throughout the course of last season, I was racing my miata in enduros, and DE-ing in my 987, M3, and GT3. I found that after driving my Cayman or M3, I had a tendency to "coast" just a hair too much in my GT3 for the first session or so, which still upset the car. The mid-engine and front-engine are just more forgiving.
I've also given up constantly timing my laps in all my DE cars. I tend to drive less aggressively because I can't chase "flyers". Sometimes the AIM doesn't even get turned on all weekend. Just depends. If conditions are good and traffic is low, then maybe I'll time a session or two, but that's usually it. Making that concession is what helps me justify taking non-race cars to the track.
11-29-2018, 06:46 PM
#38
Rennlist Member
I was a few turns behind you.. Was pretty unnerving to see you there and the ride into the pits was a quiet one. I was glad to see you and coach get out of the courtesy vehicle.
This hobby comes with risk, no doubt, and not always driver induced. Had a friend drop a bucket of oil in front of me one time and I was the first one through it. Put me in a spin. Stuff happens.
And you are right about this weekend being kind of crazy.
Between the rain on Saturday and the fog on Sunday, my friend's son drove his GT3 into the wall at the bottom of 12 (not too bad - hopefully repairable). And then my other friend, while 20 miles or so from RA at night in the rain, had his Cayman come off his trailer, cross three lanes of traffic and went into the woods. The car is totaled and a miracle nobody got hurt.
I don't like posting pics of wrecked cars, but the results of the self-navigated off road excursion were dramatic. The trees won.
We left early on Monday morning (5:00 AM) and on the way home, while stopped for breakfast, we noticed my brother-in-law's trailer hub had self-terminated, so we had to rebuild that in Macon, GA. He didn't have a spare (he does now - Two is one - One is None). Didn't finish up until 8 PM. Was a long and "off" weekend, to say the least.
Really glad you guys are OK.. Glad my friend's son is OK. And glad nobody got killed by a rogue Cayman. Cars can be replaced.
This hobby comes with risk, no doubt, and not always driver induced. Had a friend drop a bucket of oil in front of me one time and I was the first one through it. Put me in a spin. Stuff happens.
And you are right about this weekend being kind of crazy.
Between the rain on Saturday and the fog on Sunday, my friend's son drove his GT3 into the wall at the bottom of 12 (not too bad - hopefully repairable). And then my other friend, while 20 miles or so from RA at night in the rain, had his Cayman come off his trailer, cross three lanes of traffic and went into the woods. The car is totaled and a miracle nobody got hurt.
I don't like posting pics of wrecked cars, but the results of the self-navigated off road excursion were dramatic. The trees won.
We left early on Monday morning (5:00 AM) and on the way home, while stopped for breakfast, we noticed my brother-in-law's trailer hub had self-terminated, so we had to rebuild that in Macon, GA. He didn't have a spare (he does now - Two is one - One is None). Didn't finish up until 8 PM. Was a long and "off" weekend, to say the least.
Really glad you guys are OK.. Glad my friend's son is OK. And glad nobody got killed by a rogue Cayman. Cars can be replaced.
11-29-2018, 07:04 PM
#39
Three Wheelin'
Rich, glad to hear you and the coach are ok. The car can be replaced. I hope your wife has recovered from the shock of what she watched and hope to still see you at the Smokies regardless of what you replace the GT3 with.
11-29-2018, 07:43 PM
#40
Three Wheelin'
Your post make me appreciate the before training session I received at Thermal with James and GMG Racing the one occasion when I tracked my GT3. For 90% of the time, I stayed within 6 to 7/10 of my abilities and, when I hit 8 or 9/10s, that was the first occasion I had traction control kick in. It was at high speed in the esses where I was getting sloppy with steering inputs. I found that I was not smoothly transferring left to right and right to left steering inputs like I've seen Walter Rohl do in one video but, instead rather quickly, sharply, jerked the steering wheel and, that mistake triggered the traction control.
I was happy to have had that track experience and, having done so, I would just say that you as a far more experienced driver or, more likely your wife if she had the misfortune of viewing the event would understandably be shaken by the experience. You assume the risk when engaged in high performance track events and, the best you can do is mitigate that risk like you did. I hope the insurance makes you as whole as possible and, that you'll feel able to resume the hobby.
Good luck.
Dan (still enjoys the occasional 6 to 7/10 canyon runs)
I was happy to have had that track experience and, having done so, I would just say that you as a far more experienced driver or, more likely your wife if she had the misfortune of viewing the event would understandably be shaken by the experience. You assume the risk when engaged in high performance track events and, the best you can do is mitigate that risk like you did. I hope the insurance makes you as whole as possible and, that you'll feel able to resume the hobby.
Good luck.
Dan (still enjoys the occasional 6 to 7/10 canyon runs)
11-29-2018, 08:50 PM
#43
Rennlist Member
Rich, thank you for your posts.
I was bewildered when I drove by your car in a big cloud of steam buried in the tires. The steam was visible from the yellow flag at T2. I was somewhat relieved when I noticed the way you hit the wall and even more relieved to see you walking around after I got back to the track. That’s what matters most. Sorry about the car and that your wife had to see it happen.
Please keep us informed on the insurance coverage part as many of us have it.
Im especially thankful for the posts because I read it as if directly addressed to me and you explained how it happened.
Ive been wondering how it could happen?!
Shocking that the car got away from you that hard with SC active.
You are a very accomplished driver, you explained that corner to me the day before and I found a good flow to work on because if you tell me how to do it, I accept that as the way to do it. If this can happen to you. It can happen to everybody!
i must say, that turn has always been incredibly difficult to me because it’s always felt like it want to throw me off the track, it’s very hard to “get in front” of that corner. You know Road ATL so well, maybe T4 is not such an enigma for you. I could never “stick it”, even on the faster laps it felt like I was barely hanging on. As my lap time decreased and I was getting closer to the limit, I thought to myself that Road Atlanta is easy at 9/10 but at 10/10th it’s the most dangerous track I’ve ever been to after the Ring. Going up T1 in a 4 wheel drift is one thing, doing it in T12 quite another as well. And I didn’t beat your time.
After my first visit to Road Atlanta in my crapbox Mustang, I welded a full cage in the car.
I’ve crashed one car in 15 years of LOTS of track time and I totaled my 964 at the end of the straight at Road Atlanta..
I think ive had enough of that track for a while, as I told you there it’s my nemesis and I never got all of it out of the car there. I mind a little less after this lesson learned.
I've been saying that some of the extra cost and hassle of a racecar may make for a better plan in terms of safety then the convenience and cost of running a street car. I’ve thought of a GT4CS but for now I’ve a full cage OEM cage on order for the new RS, my current purple car will do track duty through February, after that I will track the new car at tracks in Europe with just a 3 point seat belt because Porsche rather have us risk our lives than allow us to buy a safe track car. Or at least sell us the equipment.
I promise you, I will take your lesson learned as my lesson learned, check myself and minimize risk as much a possible, where possible. Thank you very much for that.
Be well and I hope to see you at tracks in a full race car soon. Keep us posted, I may just follow you there...
I was bewildered when I drove by your car in a big cloud of steam buried in the tires. The steam was visible from the yellow flag at T2. I was somewhat relieved when I noticed the way you hit the wall and even more relieved to see you walking around after I got back to the track. That’s what matters most. Sorry about the car and that your wife had to see it happen.
Please keep us informed on the insurance coverage part as many of us have it.
Im especially thankful for the posts because I read it as if directly addressed to me and you explained how it happened.
Ive been wondering how it could happen?!
Shocking that the car got away from you that hard with SC active.
You are a very accomplished driver, you explained that corner to me the day before and I found a good flow to work on because if you tell me how to do it, I accept that as the way to do it. If this can happen to you. It can happen to everybody!
i must say, that turn has always been incredibly difficult to me because it’s always felt like it want to throw me off the track, it’s very hard to “get in front” of that corner. You know Road ATL so well, maybe T4 is not such an enigma for you. I could never “stick it”, even on the faster laps it felt like I was barely hanging on. As my lap time decreased and I was getting closer to the limit, I thought to myself that Road Atlanta is easy at 9/10 but at 10/10th it’s the most dangerous track I’ve ever been to after the Ring. Going up T1 in a 4 wheel drift is one thing, doing it in T12 quite another as well. And I didn’t beat your time.
After my first visit to Road Atlanta in my crapbox Mustang, I welded a full cage in the car.
I’ve crashed one car in 15 years of LOTS of track time and I totaled my 964 at the end of the straight at Road Atlanta..
I think ive had enough of that track for a while, as I told you there it’s my nemesis and I never got all of it out of the car there. I mind a little less after this lesson learned.
I've been saying that some of the extra cost and hassle of a racecar may make for a better plan in terms of safety then the convenience and cost of running a street car. I’ve thought of a GT4CS but for now I’ve a full cage OEM cage on order for the new RS, my current purple car will do track duty through February, after that I will track the new car at tracks in Europe with just a 3 point seat belt because Porsche rather have us risk our lives than allow us to buy a safe track car. Or at least sell us the equipment.
I promise you, I will take your lesson learned as my lesson learned, check myself and minimize risk as much a possible, where possible. Thank you very much for that.
Be well and I hope to see you at tracks in a full race car soon. Keep us posted, I may just follow you there...
11-29-2018, 09:07 PM
#44
Rennlist Member
Rich, thank you for your posts.
I was bewildered when I drove by your car in a big cloud of steam buried in the tires. The steam was visible from the yellow flag at T2. I was somewhat relieved when I noticed the way you hit the wall and even more relieved to see you walking around after I got back to the track. That’s what matters most. Sorry about the car and that your wife had to see it happen.
Please keep us informed on the insurance coverage part as many of us have it.
Im especially thankful for the posts because I read it as if directly addressed to me and you explained how it happened.
Ive been wondering how it could happen?!
Shocking that the car got away from you that hard with SC active.
You are a very accomplished driver, you explained that corner to me the day before and I found a good flow to work on because if you tell me how to do it, I accept that as the way to do it. If this can happen to you. It can happen to everybody!
i must say, that turn has always been incredibly difficult to me because it’s always felt like it want to throw me off the track, it’s very hard to “get in front” of that corner. You know Road ATL so well, maybe T4 is not such an enigma for you. I could never “stick it”, even on the faster laps it felt like I was barely hanging on. As my lap time decreased and I was getting closer to the limit, I thought to myself that Road Atlanta is easy at 9/10 but at 10/10th it’s the most dangerous track I’ve ever been to after the Ring. Going up T1 in a 4 wheel drift is one thing, doing it in T12 quite another as well. And I didn’t beat your time.
After my first visit to Road Atlanta in my crapbox Mustang, I welded a full cage in the car.
I’ve crashed one car in 15 years of LOTS of track time and I totaled my 964 at the end of the straight at Road Atlanta..
I think ive had enough of that track for a while, as I told you there it’s my nemesis and I never got all of it out of the car there. I mind a little less after this lesson learned.
I've been saying that some of the extra cost and hassle of a racecar may make for a better plan in terms of safety then the convenience and cost of running a street car. I’ve thought of a GT4CS but for now I’ve a full cage OEM cage on order for the new RS, my current purple car will do track duty through February, after that I will track the new car at tracks in Europe with just a 3 point seat belt because Porsche rather have us risk our lives than allow us to buy a safe track car. Or at least sell us the equipment.
I promise you, I will take your lesson learned as my lesson learned, check myself and minimize risk as much a possible, where possible. Thank you very much for that.
Be well and I hope to see you at tracks in a full race car soon. Keep us posted, I may just follow you there...
I was bewildered when I drove by your car in a big cloud of steam buried in the tires. The steam was visible from the yellow flag at T2. I was somewhat relieved when I noticed the way you hit the wall and even more relieved to see you walking around after I got back to the track. That’s what matters most. Sorry about the car and that your wife had to see it happen.
Please keep us informed on the insurance coverage part as many of us have it.
Im especially thankful for the posts because I read it as if directly addressed to me and you explained how it happened.
Ive been wondering how it could happen?!
Shocking that the car got away from you that hard with SC active.
You are a very accomplished driver, you explained that corner to me the day before and I found a good flow to work on because if you tell me how to do it, I accept that as the way to do it. If this can happen to you. It can happen to everybody!
i must say, that turn has always been incredibly difficult to me because it’s always felt like it want to throw me off the track, it’s very hard to “get in front” of that corner. You know Road ATL so well, maybe T4 is not such an enigma for you. I could never “stick it”, even on the faster laps it felt like I was barely hanging on. As my lap time decreased and I was getting closer to the limit, I thought to myself that Road Atlanta is easy at 9/10 but at 10/10th it’s the most dangerous track I’ve ever been to after the Ring. Going up T1 in a 4 wheel drift is one thing, doing it in T12 quite another as well. And I didn’t beat your time.
After my first visit to Road Atlanta in my crapbox Mustang, I welded a full cage in the car.
I’ve crashed one car in 15 years of LOTS of track time and I totaled my 964 at the end of the straight at Road Atlanta..
I think ive had enough of that track for a while, as I told you there it’s my nemesis and I never got all of it out of the car there. I mind a little less after this lesson learned.
I've been saying that some of the extra cost and hassle of a racecar may make for a better plan in terms of safety then the convenience and cost of running a street car. I’ve thought of a GT4CS but for now I’ve a full cage OEM cage on order for the new RS, my current purple car will do track duty through February, after that I will track the new car at tracks in Europe with just a 3 point seat belt because Porsche rather have us risk our lives than allow us to buy a safe track car. Or at least sell us the equipment.
I promise you, I will take your lesson learned as my lesson learned, check myself and minimize risk as much a possible, where possible. Thank you very much for that.
Be well and I hope to see you at tracks in a full race car soon. Keep us posted, I may just follow you there...
11-29-2018, 09:12 PM
#45
Nordschleife Master
Rich: Glad you are OK and your coach is Ok. Smart you had insurance. Car can be replaced.
I don't track my Porsches. Far too expensive an asset for my taste and pocketbook and to covert to full race mode safety wise destroys the value of the car and it's street legality with a full cage.
I began tracking back in 2012 with a street Boss 302. Went to many track events. Went to a 5 day race school. Got better and better and faster. Then saw some bad incidents at the track and began wondering about hurling myself at 2x highway speeds around a track in a street car and allowing my son to do the same.
Finally sold the street Boss and bought a fully prepped Boss 302 TA2 race car. Converted our Shelby GT to a full race car.
A year after buying the Boss 302 TA2 I spun off the track at an event an went sideways about 70 mph into a tire wall. Last thing I thought to myself after realizing I couldn't keep it out of the wall was "well at least I have a roll cage". I was fine but the car took about $20,000.00 to fix. Cosmetic. Nothing structural. I am sure that if I was in my street Boss 302 instead I would have been hurt based on the damage to the drivers door.
After getting the Boss back I must admit I was timid for awhile in getting up to speed and pushing to the edge of comfort but I eventually shook it off.
The Shelby was stuffed into a tire wall at Watkins Glen by my son. My son walked away fine. $10,000 in damage.
Two types of drivers who track their cars. Those that have crashed and those that will.
Safety comes first. I never try to go 10/10ths. Although 10/10 and 11/10ths is separated by only .1 the difference in end results are huge. The latter equal twisted cars and possibly injury. I push to where I am comfortable and that's it. I always avoid getting sucked in by the "red mist". I never run the last session of day for many reasons including my fatigue and the fatigue of others. I quit while I'm ahead.
I like the idea of the Spec Miata. Safe and fun.
I would urge anyone tracking to focus more on safety first before mods for performance.
If you love it don't give it up. Get a car that is built for the track and have fun with a higher margin of safety.
My son and I at NJMP this summer above.
Last edited by Waxer; 11-29-2018 at 09:29 PM.