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It started back in the 996.2 GT3 RS era. They shod Pirelli Corsa race compound street legal tires to a car that was nearly identical to the 996.2 GT3, the result: the 996RS dropped 7 secs on the Nurburgring lap.
When the 997.1 GT3 came out, it was shod with Michelin Pillot Sport Cups (another r-comp tire), while the competitors were still running real street tires. Porsche GT cars since 2004 have always been ahead in the cheater tire department (except 2 times where the C7Z07 and the last Viper ACR-E got better rubber, and the Carrera GT didn't get a decent tire).
Then there is the size: My 265/325 stock 991 RS tires mounted on stock wheels are almost as wide as the 295/345 Hoosiers I have mounted on my track wheels, and as wide as my C7Z07 285/335 tires.
Except the Vette, AMG GTR, Viper ACR-E, the competitors are running on less sticky rubber and/or narrower sizes.
I have been on track with an upgraded springs, proper camber, BMW M4 3.0TT manual transmission running on better rubber (265/305), the owner is a very experienced driver, at his local track (a 90 seconds lap) he dropped 4 seconds a lap just on tires/springs/camber plates. His tire choice: front ones from a 991.1 GT3 RS and rear ones from a 991.2 GT3 that's on Cup2. On Cup2R or equivalent grip he should drop another 1.5 secs (84.5 secs projected lap). A 991.1 GT3 RS in stock configuration and well driven runs 1:25 on that same track, my best lap with my RS is a 1:22 from nearly a year ago but on a set of race headers and Hoosier tires, and my best ever a 1:21 in my 991 TTS.
It is just about tires: put something big and sticky, and if your track doesn't have crazy high speeds, put something much bigger even if they stick out of the fender lines.
...the BMW M4 described above is going for aero, track day seats, light muffler and a tune. He will clearly be able to run faster times than most GT3s out there, but for 2-3 laps.
Lapping longevity in Porsche GT cars, well that's another topic, and there is no better street car that is this capable and dependable for track days.
So it's all tires at the end?
What about RR layout vs. MR layout? - I'm guessing RR has its limits just by looking at how 991 RSR moved engine forward.
What about suspension? 991 uses Macpherson suspension while other brands (Ferrari, McLaren or Lambo) use double wishbone.
I think the question should be why are Porsches so prevalent at every race track around the world? why are GT Porsches more common at the Nurburgring than a Renault Megane or Honda Civic? I have mistaken other GT3's for my own on several occasions at this tiny parking lot in a remote corner of Germany and its hilarious. The reason is the manufacturer and the owners of these cars love what they are and love to drive them where they belong. in this photo which was taken during Scuderia S7 (an all inclusive mark event) it might as well be a Porsche event. the only reason you see so many Skoda's there (VW group) is there was a Skoda school at the same time. in the background you can see one McLaren, one Mercedes, one BMW. You may see an occasional Ferrari. A few more Lamborghini's lately but really as rare as these Porsches are they are all at the track around the world on any given weekend. Second photo is at Monza. Notice lack of Italian stallions.
Originally Posted by acey81
I've been to events all over Europe and it is the same everywhere. The cars that usually are the fastest, with the best drivers and who do the most laps are Porsches. Every now and again you will have Speciale, GT-R, LT-Mclaren. The Ferraris only ever do a couple of laps, too few to even have time to break down. The GT-Rs and Corvettes always have some heat issues or go into limp mode, and McLarens are usually pretty quick (seems to me that there are a lot of ex Porsche guys who have gone to McLaren), but again they don't do nearly the same amount of laps as the Porsches.
Originally Posted by Kobalt
Î don't want to go too OT but:
Getting a fast car - say a GT-R and just being able to do two Ring-laps at a time would be very frustrating.
Many reviews are so focused on how fast the car are in one lap. Not how fast a car is over a day.
Most of us must travel far to get to a race track. When we are there we want decide when to drive or not. We don't want the car to decide that for us.
For me there is a practical side of the car choice:
How long does the brakes last?
How many laps can I do before refueling?
Do I fit in the car with a helmet on?
Is there space for me to store my pressure gauge, wallet and phone?
Etcetera
I like a car to be good looking and to be fun to drive but it must be practical too.
Originally Posted by Akunob
Answer to why you see more GT cars on track
Reliability - Porsches can take a beating at the track all day and still be driven home in one piece
Entry price - the MSRP of a GT3 (and even the GT3RS) is much lower than Ferrari, Lamborghini or McLarens
Parts - Porsche parts aren’t cheap but compared to the others they are a bargain
Service - Porsche lends itself to some DIY and many can do their own wrenching. Try that in a McLaren!
Dealer support - dealers don’t automatically void warranties if the car is used on track, some dealers actually support/encourage track use. Other brands, not so much
Value retention - yes the dreaded value topic, however a GT3 with 10,000 miles (20% of those on track), will likely hold its value (% depreciation) better than a Ferrari, Lamborghini or McLaren of equal use
Finally Clubs/Culture - Porsche Car clubs have a culture of DE’s and track events that other marque brands just don’t match (probably for the reasons above)
Answer to why Porsches are faster on track
Posche owners who track their cars are a testosterone fueled, crazy, thrill-seeking bunch! We just go flat out...there is no substitute and we don’t compromise. LOL
All of these answers are absolutely true and correct but they are answers to a question that the OP did not ask.
The question was why Porsche’s put down such good Ring times, not why Porsche’s are such good (and/or reliable) track cars.
Being fast around the Ring is neither a sufficient nor necessary condition to being a good track day toy.
Hold on, the 305/30/20 Mclaren tyre was also used in about 3500 12c's and 3000 650s as well. Oh and also over a thousand and counting 720s.
It's the P1 that sits a bit apart as it was standard with a 315/30/20 corsa and the option trofeo was a non MC spec 305/30/20 that was bigger than the 315 OEM corsa.
While I obviously agree that Porsche has much more clout with tyre manufacturers than Mclaren your numbers used above are a bit selective...
We are talking about trofeo R "super tires" which are equivalent of the 918 (P1) and 991RS (2/3) (675LT) which ride on MPSc2 or now the cup2R.
The trofeos are changing sizes and splitting amongst different vehicles plus are smaller overall. 235 or 245 (different fronts depending on the model and 285 (570, 600LT) or 305 rears are in no way sufficient to lay down ultimate lap times.
Not sure how many other people have significant seat time in the Viper AcR-X and P1 and 675 and 720 and 991RS but the fact is that the biggest tires mean you can drive a lot easier to the limit. I did about 12 track days in the viper (broke a lap record at chuckwalla in both directions) and can't imagine any other car that has more grip on lap 2. Literally cannot spin the rear tires outside of 1st gear (which you don't use on a track). The aero is incredible. Easiest car to approach 10/10ths ever.
The P1 is sliding and yawing all over the track when you are braking and cornering from 60-120mph. Beyond that, the grip comes in. The accelerating phase is preposterous but you can spin the tires in 2nd, 3rd, and 4th.
The LT spins tires all day, drifts everywhere and is super playful but is about 400lbs of downforce away form being a real "track weapon". You need to be judicious with throttle because there is no aero to catch your slides at Willow Springs, Sonoma, Chuckwalla, Buttonwillow (tracks I've taken it). It just pitches sideways under excessive power application and stays out there like a Camaro. Super fun. Most fun car I have ever tracked outside of the BAC Mono.
The 2RS should be a handful. I'll report back but the tires are so big once they warm up at least you will have the grip for a little bit.
All of these answers are absolutely true and correct but they are answers to a question that the OP did not ask.
The question was why Porsche’s put down such good Ring times, not why Porsche’s are such good (and/or reliable) track cars.
Being fast around the Ring is neither a sufficient nor necessary condition to being a good track day toy.
Traditionally, the 911 design, engine placement, and weight distribution allow it to squat through corners due to better grip. One cannot drive a 911 through fast corners like when driving a front or even mid engine car. If you lift from the throttle, you’re dead.
This is interesting and might help: https://newsroom.porsche.com/en/hist...hrl-10156.html
Because after the Nissan GT-R hit, Porsche marketing department decided they needed to use nordschleife times to sell cars too.
When the head honchos tell the engineers to get a good lap, that's what happens.
And then yeah, like CJ said, it's all about the tires. Look at all the current lap leaders. AMG GTR, Porsche GTs, Lamborghinis, Viper ACR. All have one thing in common, huge tires in the grippiest compounds with the most aggressive designs. In almost every case the tire manufacturer has made a custom tire compound for the car. Viper uses a competition tire with a facade of tread. Arguably that's what the Cup2r is as well.
Big brakes for the weight and they are even more effective because the rear engine.
Big cooling, big tires for the weight. 911's have always punched above their HP rating.
You can try to defend Mclaren all you want, (as you should because you own Mclaren dealership), but nothing changes the fact that Mclaren chose to work with Pirelli exclusively. Even Ferrari works with both Michelin and Pirelli on their cars. Anyone who is familiar with the tire industry will tell you, Michelin is the BEST tire company in the world. They make the best street tires, full stop.
As for the P1 and the Ring lap time debacle, why did Mclaren go with a smaller tire (from 315 to 305) on the Trofeo R without the manufacturer specific "MC" marking on it? Because the P1 was never planned to be used with the Trofeo R tire to begin with. This decision was taken after the fact, WAY AFTER the P1 completed its tire evaluation and homologation stage, hence they took an off-the-shelf tire that didn't even come in the correct size.
Yes, Chris Goodwin is no Ring Ace, that's for sure. That's why when Mclaren came out with the bogus Youtube video on "Yes we did it", it was a theoretical lap time that combined the best sectors times from various laps.
P1 is quicker than the 918 past 130mph, so it's not surprising that it would faster on circuits like Monza or Portimao with long straights. The P1, in my opinion, is not Mclaren's best work. They didn't have a lot of money back then and had to work with the 12C carbon tub as the base, which was never designed to be incorporated with a hybrid system in the first place. The P1 was suppose to be the ultimate group C tribute car. Adding the hybrid system was a reaction to Ferrari and Porsche's decision to go hybrid. That's why the hybrid system in the P1 is placed high up like the Eiffel tower. As for the hydraulic suspension on the P1 and its race mode, may I refer you to the new Ford GT and see how a proper manufacturer with real resources do it. That suspension changes its mode within seconds.
720S is a proper engineered car from Mclaren. They learned their lessons from the 12C/P1 and applied them. Quality is still sketchy, but it's better than its predecessors. The LT should literally destroy everything under 600K when it hits the market.
Originally Posted by C.J. Ichiban
Porsche puts the BIGGEST and best tires on their GT/ RS cars. This alone gives them repeatable laptimes or much more approachable laptimes.
For instance- the 265/325 tires on
the 2014 918,
2016 RS and
2019 RS and now CUP2R tires are faster still. Just in tire tech the 'Ring lap times are 5 seconds ahead and cup2R perhaps 5 seconds still ahead of that. So since 2014, almost 10 seconds in tire technology.
They can afford to co develop this because they make thousands of potential customer cars and therefore safely marketable tire customers.
Quick equation:
1000 675 LT's, 375 P1's had 305 rear section Pirellis. If 50% of those customers have replaced tires in last ownership cycle, then Pirelli has sold 2100 sets of tires total.
4500 GT3RS 2016
918 918's.
If 50% of those guys replaced tires, now Michelin has sold 8127 sets of tires. But the real number is probably closer to 10k. Reality is that some GT3 and GT3RS guys are on their 4th or 5th set of tires. Now add
XXXX GT2RS gen2
XXXX GT3RS gen2
And Michelin is selling another 3-4-5-6 whatever thousand RS 265/325 tires.
Meanwhile Pirelli is just delivering the 600LT and Senna tires (which are different sizes from each other and therefore different molds)
It's a tire war. Never forget that angle!
Also- Porsche's test Driver's are the BEST in the industry. McLaren and Ferrari test Driver's will not risk the car like Porsche dudes. Chris Goodwin does not equate to "Ring Ace" and never could put the lap together in the P1 which has proven on F1 type circuits to be faster than 918 on occasion.
How is 911 staying competitive in N-Ring Lap Time when
1) It has RR layout (I assume MR is more ideal considering even Porsche uses mid engine layout for its supercars)
2) Relatively inexpensive body structure (doesn't have CF monocoque build and etc)
3) Relatively heavier and less bhp than competitors
You guys are saying it's all about thick and sticky tire? Is that what it boils down to? Really?
To answer OP and I let the expert correct me. The Porsche is actually a very good track car with its layout. Assumption - car is set up well with alignment, sway bar etc for track use.
brake - the Porsche is better because less weight over front axle, means less dive. This keeps the car level which allows for more efficient breaking
mid corner - Porsche is not strongest, MR platform will do better
acceleration - the Porsche is better because more weight over rear axle allows more grip at corner exit.
slip angle - Porsche allow great slip angle than most other cars with same type tire. Great for higher speed corner.
How is 911 staying competitive in N-Ring Lap Time when
1) It has RR layout (I assume MR is more ideal considering even Porsche uses mid engine layout for its supercars)
2) Relatively inexpensive body structure (doesn't have CF monocoque build and etc)
3) Relatively heavier and less bhp than competitors
You guys are saying it's all about thick and sticky tire? Is that what it boils down to? Really?
Yes because road tyres are to a greater or lesser extent limiting factor to what modern sports cars are able to do laptimes wise. engine position/monocoque material etc are relatively inconsequential when the cars being compared are all mainly road cars that aren't being engineered to be the fastest cars they can be.
Yes because road tyres are to a greater or lesser extent limiting factor to what modern sports cars are able to do laptimes wise. engine position/monocoque material etc are relatively inconsequential when the cars being compared are all mainly road cars that aren't being engineered to be the fastest cars they can be.
1) It has RR layout (I assume MR is more ideal considering even Porsche uses mid engine layout for its supercars)
2) Relatively inexpensive body structure (doesn't have CF monocoque build and etc)
3) Relatively heavier and less bhp than competitors
1) Check corner weights with driver weight in the car. The 991 has closer to a MR weight distribution than original 911s. The Lotus Elise has more rear weight (%) than my 991 GT3 RS, Elise is MR, 991 is RR. Check the corner weights on a 720s or 488 and compare. My RS has 40% of the weight in the front axle, PCCB, Titanium Akrapovic headers, L-pipes and stock Ti exhaust, FAL. Most competitor MR cars have 42/58 ratios, this is noise (50-60 lbs more in one axle), so it is not a MR vs. RR justification for performance.
2) The majority of race cars that lap an eternity faster than street cars are still built with metal tubs. A carbon monocoque doesn't guarantee a stiffer body, and there are more stiffening components beyond the tub: bushings, subframe material, springs, cross bars, even sway bars (720/650/12c have softer bushings and no sway bars).
3) Again, put the car on the scales. Ferraris and Lambos have been claiming weights that are not real, McLaren is playing the same game, hit the scales. Put these cars on the scales and put these cars on the dyno. My RS on low fuel sits at 3,089 lbs, and I have seen same 991.1 RS at close to 3,400 lbs, both weights with no driver. 720, 488, C7Z (mine weighed 3,490 lbs on low fuel, race wheels, Hoosiers, and carbon ceramic wheels), Viper, etc. the scales don't lie, they will give you the actual weight. Indeed, I consider the 991 GT cars among the true lightest cars available in their segment. Then there is power, Viper,R8, Huracan and GT3s are all motor, other cars are forced induction, IAT get up on forced induction and power goes down, I have a 991TTS with custom intercoolers and this is still an issue, same with the C7Z, the GT3 puts lots of power to the ground, linear power. A few weeks ago, a LP750SV could only put 4 cars long exiting at the same speed onto a 0.6 miles straight, but he needed to slow down a 1,000 lbs heavier car (despite the 250hp advantage) hitting the brakes on marker 6, I was relaxed braking at marker 2, advantage on that straight: GT3 RS.
Then factor cheater tires...
GT3s are powerful, light, have more aero downforce than their competitors (except the Viper ACR) and run on cheater tires, tough combination.
Switch to non-GT3 Porsches (Carreras, Turbos, etc.), you lose the stiff suspension links and springs, you lose the Aero advantage, you lose the linear power, you lose the lightweight car, you lose the cheater tires, and performance suffers as a consequence.
10-18-2018, 10:32 AM
