2019 GT3RS vs 2018 6spd Manual GT3... THE REAL STORY!
09-30-2018, 01:45 PM
#31
Nordschleife Master
Originally Posted by TRAKCAR
It’s faster on every track in auto or PDK.
Thats just an answer to a question above.
i don’t understand your problem with my post.
we’re comparing two 991.2 variants and I was only explaining how the .2RS could go faster in a drag race.
personally I have no interest in drag racing or manual 991 and later cars.
If I go manual, I prefer slower true analog cars.
Not rev matching for me.
Thats just an answer to a question above.
i don’t understand your problem with my post.
we’re comparing two 991.2 variants and I was only explaining how the .2RS could go faster in a drag race.
personally I have no interest in drag racing or manual 991 and later cars.
If I go manual, I prefer slower true analog cars.
Not rev matching for me.
The myth AP launched at the introduction of the pdk transmission about " half car lengths " is gone. Even he doesn't believe that anymore! And it's been proven by many good drivers,some of them from this forum...
09-30-2018, 03:42 PM
#35
I estimate that a manual PCCB GT3 is 35kg(77lbs) lighter than an RS with steels, which equates to the RS weighing exactly 2.5% more assuming otherwise similar spec..As its basically power to weight ratio which determines how fast a car accelerates in gear then the RS would need an extra 12.5HP(2.5%) more than the GT3 to achieve identical P/W ratio. As the OP states in his first post that according to dynos the PDK only takes up between 5 and 10HP in losses, say average of 7.5HP. Add the 12.5HP to the 7.5HP which means the RS with steels needs 20HP more WHP to equal the GT3 with manual.
This tallies exactly with the extra 20HP the RS engine has over the GT3's. Taking all this into account plus the reduced rotational inertia of the PCCBs then its hardly surprising that both cars have similar on the roll acceleration.
This tallies exactly with the extra 20HP the RS engine has over the GT3's. Taking all this into account plus the reduced rotational inertia of the PCCBs then its hardly surprising that both cars have similar on the roll acceleration.
09-30-2018, 06:36 PM
#37
Pro
Thread Starter
Just over 300 on the RS and about 2900 on the GT3
Both cars are amazing! Can't go wrong with either one IMO.
The RS hit the limiter in one race... the GT3 rolled up the windows in one race (and frankly didn't get it all the way up lol)... there were plenty other runs with both cars windows down... Both wings were in the least aggressive positions. We tried to take as many variables out of these runs as possible. Frankly, I have an RS coming... so I was incented to make sure the races were as equal as possible. Frankly the last race on the video, while it's tough to tell... the RS actually got a slight jump, and the GT3 was able to make it up. When the GT3 got the jump, the RS wasn't able to make up the gap.
ROFL, agreed! 
Trakcar, I don't use the rev matching either... I drive them! And I would challenge the theory that the PDK is faster on any track.. I think where we agree with one another... is the 'faster driver' will be faster on any track.. whether he's in the PDK or the Manual trans car. Now, I'm not so sure they can make up the on track advantage the RS has over the GT3 in 'aero and track width'... but the PDK... isn't an unfair advantage. Look at Randy's times at Willow Springs, he was .3 (3 tenths slower) in the Manual, Steel Braked GT3 with Sofa seats vs. the PDK, PCCB, LWB GT3... same day same track. Isn't your experience similar when switching from steel to Ceramics?
I completely agree... that car would be/will be INSANE! 
That was exactly what we were trying to show/prove as well. Frankly, if you speak with the RS driver... he'll tell you the manual GT3 was the quicker car in most the races. Most of the reason, I'd reason, due to lower HP loss via Manual trans. The brakes never were given any benefit in the last posters thread... when the RS had PCCB and the GT3 had Iron brakes... so it's a bit funny how in this comparison everyone is certain to call it out.
No question (in my mind) equal driver on the RoadCourse... the RS wins... and that's what it was built for. And while I'll plan to run mine around a few tracks (probably not as often as TrakCar or Orthojoe) I will also plan to do 1/2 mile events and the like too.
I do believe the gearing in the PDK is shorter, but the RS has a taller tire... which seems to equalize that. When you say you 'drive the manual and it felt slower' compared to what? If you're comparing to a .1 RS... the .2 4.0 GT3 is much stronger... considerably more TQ... and most who have driven both side to side noticed that immediately. Or are you comparing to a .2 RS?
Best Regards,
Dave
agreed, was shocked at the missed shifts on the pdk car in this video. they also picked a bit of a weird speed to start from. these cars are so explosive in first gear, it's way too hard to get a fair start between them. props to the manual driver - he must have shifted nearly flawlessly.
that said, the last race seemed to be the most fair. even start for both, no missed shifts. and in that video, you can see the cars are neck and neck up until probably 100mph, where the GT3 starts to pull (no doubt due to the slicker aero, which was exacerbated by the RS's open window).
that said, the last race seemed to be the most fair. even start for both, no missed shifts. and in that video, you can see the cars are neck and neck up until probably 100mph, where the GT3 starts to pull (no doubt due to the slicker aero, which was exacerbated by the RS's open window).
Hahaha! 
Yeah put it in Auto to remove the driver! I'm looking forward to the 994 GT3 RS where you go to your favorite track,the GPS will recognize you're at SPA,press a button and enjoy your popcorn and Frappuccino while the car will be putting lap time after lap time until the tires give out. At that point the nanny will take you to the pits " for your safety ". 
Yeah put it in Auto to remove the driver! I'm looking forward to the 994 GT3 RS where you go to your favorite track,the GPS will recognize you're at SPA,press a button and enjoy your popcorn and Frappuccino while the car will be putting lap time after lap time until the tires give out. At that point the nanny will take you to the pits " for your safety ". It’s faster on every track in auto or PDK.
Thats just an answer to a question above.
i don’t understand your problem with my post.
we’re comparing two 991.2 variants and I was only explaining how the .2RS could go faster in a drag race.
personally I have no interest in drag racing or manual 991 and later cars.
If I go manual, I prefer slower true analog cars.
Not rev matching for me.
Thats just an answer to a question above.
i don’t understand your problem with my post.
we’re comparing two 991.2 variants and I was only explaining how the .2RS could go faster in a drag race.
personally I have no interest in drag racing or manual 991 and later cars.
If I go manual, I prefer slower true analog cars.
Not rev matching for me.
Trakcar, I don't use the rev matching either... I drive them! And I would challenge the theory that the PDK is faster on any track.. I think where we agree with one another... is the 'faster driver' will be faster on any track.. whether he's in the PDK or the Manual trans car. Now, I'm not so sure they can make up the on track advantage the RS has over the GT3 in 'aero and track width'... but the PDK... isn't an unfair advantage. Look at Randy's times at Willow Springs, he was .3 (3 tenths slower) in the Manual, Steel Braked GT3 with Sofa seats vs. the PDK, PCCB, LWB GT3... same day same track. Isn't your experience similar when switching from steel to Ceramics?
I estimate that a manual PCCB GT3 is 35kg(77lbs) lighter than an RS with steels, which equates to the RS weighing exactly 2.5% more assuming otherwise similar spec..As its basically power to weight ratio which determines how fast a car accelerates in gear then the RS would need an extra 12.5HP(2.5%) more than the GT3 to achieve identical P/W ratio. As the OP states in his first post that according to dynos the PDK only takes up between 5 and 10HP in losses, say average of 7.5HP. Add the 12.5HP to the 7.5HP which means the RS with steels needs 20HP more WHP to equal the GT3 with manual.
This tallies exactly with the extra 20HP the RS engine has over the GT3's. Taking all this into account plus the reduced rotational inertia of the PCCBs then its hardly surprising that both cars have similar on the roll acceleration.
This tallies exactly with the extra 20HP the RS engine has over the GT3's. Taking all this into account plus the reduced rotational inertia of the PCCBs then its hardly surprising that both cars have similar on the roll acceleration.
No question (in my mind) equal driver on the RoadCourse... the RS wins... and that's what it was built for. And while I'll plan to run mine around a few tracks (probably not as often as TrakCar or Orthojoe) I will also plan to do 1/2 mile events and the like too.
Best Regards,
Dave
09-30-2018, 06:48 PM
#38
Rennlist Member
Ceramics are .5 sec faster at Sebring but I assume that it’s due to lower temps on the front tire more then just the weight loss.
I don’t think it makes a difference in acceleration runs.
It would be interesting to weigh the cars.
- PDK weight VS all the CF stuff on RS
- Aero advantage GT3 over 100MPH compared to fat RS
- Less power loss, over 20HP more RS
- Less parasitical loss manual, over better gearing RS.
- GT3 loosened up VS RS low mile on motor.
Someone once drove a bunch of fresh lower mile .1RS and then drive my whored out one and commented mine felt particularly strong.
I should Dyno it sometimes.
My comment on rev matching was just that if I go manual, it nostalgic to me and I want an aircooled for that.
Thats nothing to take away from the manual enthusiasts!
I don’t think it makes a difference in acceleration runs.
It would be interesting to weigh the cars.
- PDK weight VS all the CF stuff on RS
- Aero advantage GT3 over 100MPH compared to fat RS
- Less power loss, over 20HP more RS
- Less parasitical loss manual, over better gearing RS.
- GT3 loosened up VS RS low mile on motor.
Someone once drove a bunch of fresh lower mile .1RS and then drive my whored out one and commented mine felt particularly strong.
I should Dyno it sometimes.
My comment on rev matching was just that if I go manual, it nostalgic to me and I want an aircooled for that.
Thats nothing to take away from the manual enthusiasts!
09-30-2018, 07:20 PM
#39
Pro
Thread Starter
Ceramics are .5 sec faster at Sebring but I assume that it’s due to lower temps on the front tire more then just the weight loss.
I don’t think it makes a difference in acceleration runs.
It would be interesting to weigh the cars.
- PDK weight VS all the CF stuff on RS
- Aero advantage GT3 over 100MPH compared to fat RS
- Less power loss, over 20HP more RS
- Less parasitical loss manual, over better gearing RS.
- GT3 loosened up VS RS low mile on motor.
Someone once drove a bunch of fresh lower mile .1RS and then drive my whored out one and commented mine felt particularly strong.
I should Dyno it sometimes.
My comment on rev matching was just that if I go manual, it nostalgic to me and I want an aircooled for that.
Thats nothing to take away from the manual enthusiasts!
I don’t think it makes a difference in acceleration runs.
It would be interesting to weigh the cars.
- PDK weight VS all the CF stuff on RS
- Aero advantage GT3 over 100MPH compared to fat RS
- Less power loss, over 20HP more RS
- Less parasitical loss manual, over better gearing RS.
- GT3 loosened up VS RS low mile on motor.
Someone once drove a bunch of fresh lower mile .1RS and then drive my whored out one and commented mine felt particularly strong.
I should Dyno it sometimes.
My comment on rev matching was just that if I go manual, it nostalgic to me and I want an aircooled for that.
Thats nothing to take away from the manual enthusiasts!
Best Regards,
Dave
09-30-2018, 10:07 PM
#40
Rennlist Member
Just asked my shop if they know a low mileage RS to Dyno.
Never did it but would be cool to see. And maybe I do it again with new spark plugs because RS uses them up fast.
Not sure if it would make a difference but it idles smoother with new plugs.
Never did it but would be cool to see. And maybe I do it again with new spark plugs because RS uses them up fast.
Not sure if it would make a difference but it idles smoother with new plugs.
10-09-2018, 12:02 AM
#43
We should not be too surprised at the OP’s results given they match Porsche’s own figures.
97-200 kph:
991.2 GT3 PDK 7.8 seconds
991.2 GT3 Manual 7.6 seconds
991.2 RS PDK 7.6 seconds
So the manual is quoted equal to the RS through the midrange. Given that it’s got a 5 mph advantage on the big end you’d expect the manual 3 to pull away as speeds climb. Exactly what we see here.
97-200 kph:
991.2 GT3 PDK 7.8 seconds
991.2 GT3 Manual 7.6 seconds
991.2 RS PDK 7.6 seconds
So the manual is quoted equal to the RS through the midrange. Given that it’s got a 5 mph advantage on the big end you’d expect the manual 3 to pull away as speeds climb. Exactly what we see here.
10-09-2018, 03:41 AM
#45
Alright Fellow Rennlisters! As we were able to make the request happen... who would win, when both cars properly driven:
2018 6 speed Manual GT3
2019 PDK GT3 RS
Both owners decided on taking a quick trip to Mexico, and try to post some UNBIASED roll races, between the new GT3 RS and the 6spd Manual GT3.
This 6spd Car has run neck and neck with the new Turbo S from a roll, and knowing this... we were a bit of a skeptic of the videos being posted showing the RS 'walking away' from the '18 GT3, and lack of multiple runs.
Now, the GT3's that had been racing the RS' had been PDK to PDK, and there is something to be said for a slight increase in drive-train loss for the PDK vs. Manual (looks to be about 5 to 10 HP at the most depending on the dyno).
You will see MULTIPLE passes here between the RS & the 6spd Manual... and what both the owners agreed... was that once both cars were rolling... the GT3 did seem to pull ever so slightly in the higher gears (4th/5th).
We worked to make these runs EXTREMELY FAIR... and frankly, noticed if the 6spd car got the jump... the 6spd was gone. If the RS got the jump... it was a much closer race... and the 6spd would creep back up on the RS.
Regardless, both cars are AMAZING... and are confident a PDK RS vs. PDK GT3... the RS is going to win. And frankly, if you aren't perfect at rowing the gears... the PDK probably wins against the 6spd cars as well.
Both drivers met at a local gas station near the border and filled up their tanks so that both cars were as delivered, no passengers and full tanks of fuel.
We tried to get a Turbo S and a PDK GT3 car to attend, however their schedules weren't able to make the trip.
https://youtu.be/RewOYIQbQGY
Best Regards,
Dave
2018 6 speed Manual GT3
2019 PDK GT3 RS
Both owners decided on taking a quick trip to Mexico, and try to post some UNBIASED roll races, between the new GT3 RS and the 6spd Manual GT3.
This 6spd Car has run neck and neck with the new Turbo S from a roll, and knowing this... we were a bit of a skeptic of the videos being posted showing the RS 'walking away' from the '18 GT3, and lack of multiple runs.
Now, the GT3's that had been racing the RS' had been PDK to PDK, and there is something to be said for a slight increase in drive-train loss for the PDK vs. Manual (looks to be about 5 to 10 HP at the most depending on the dyno).
You will see MULTIPLE passes here between the RS & the 6spd Manual... and what both the owners agreed... was that once both cars were rolling... the GT3 did seem to pull ever so slightly in the higher gears (4th/5th).
We worked to make these runs EXTREMELY FAIR... and frankly, noticed if the 6spd car got the jump... the 6spd was gone. If the RS got the jump... it was a much closer race... and the 6spd would creep back up on the RS.
Regardless, both cars are AMAZING... and are confident a PDK RS vs. PDK GT3... the RS is going to win. And frankly, if you aren't perfect at rowing the gears... the PDK probably wins against the 6spd cars as well.
Both drivers met at a local gas station near the border and filled up their tanks so that both cars were as delivered, no passengers and full tanks of fuel.
We tried to get a Turbo S and a PDK GT3 car to attend, however their schedules weren't able to make the trip.
https://youtu.be/RewOYIQbQGY
Best Regards,
Dave