GT car / Salesman - Shiraaz Sookralli - Champion Porsche's VP of Marketing
09-13-2018, 07:26 PM
#451
I guess the question is would you rather pay a $50K ADM to get a .2 GT3 RS and have nothing to show for it or get a new Macan? You spend $50K either way to get your RS allocation.
09-13-2018, 07:31 PM
#452
That may have been the case in the past but now that Ferrari is a public company, they encourage new owners to purchase less coveted models like the Lusso and Portofino before speccing a 488 Spider/812. It's still an ADM if you're coerced into getting a model you don't want but at least you get to drive around in a new Ferrari while waiting for 1 year or so for your 488 Spider to be delivered. With Porsche that ADM is flushed down the toilet.
I guess the question is would you rather pay a $50K ADM to get a .2 GT3 RS and have nothing to show for it or get a new Macan? You spend $50K either way to get your RS allocation.
I guess the question is would you rather pay a $50K ADM to get a .2 GT3 RS and have nothing to show for it or get a new Macan? You spend $50K either way to get your RS allocation.
09-13-2018, 07:36 PM
#453
Race Director
Originally Posted by Norcalgt3
That's ridiculous. There are many dealers here that will sell you a crappy porsche for a chance at a GT3 at msrp.
Very common. Buy multiple Cayenne's, Panameras, Turbo S's, etc ... They just don't admit it.
09-13-2018, 07:36 PM
#454
Holy Guru
Rennlist
Registered Pontiff
Rennlist
Registered Pontiff
That may have been the case in the past but now that Ferrari is a public company, they encourage new owners to purchase less coveted models like the Lusso and Portofino before speccing a 488 Spider/812. It's still an ADM if you're coerced into getting a model you don't want but at least you get to drive around in a new Ferrari while waiting for 1 year or so for your 488 Spider to be delivered. With Porsche that ADM is flushed down the toilet.
09-13-2018, 07:37 PM
#455
Race Director
Originally Posted by The Pope
Nothing to do with Ferrari spinning off FCA. This phenomenon has been going on for decades. And, the same practice can be found at some high-end wristwatch companies. Been there, done that...
Hey Pope! Nice of you to join us. Don't tell PTS Eduardo you're a Rennlister. He's not a fan of you
09-13-2018, 07:38 PM
#456
Can you post specific examples of buyers who bought a Panny Turbo S to get a GT2 RS at MSRP or a Macan to get a GT3 RS at sticker?
09-13-2018, 07:41 PM
#457
09-13-2018, 07:47 PM
#458
Now it seems dealers would rather have you buy a new Lusso to get a Pista. YMMV.
09-13-2018, 07:53 PM
#459
It's obviously more ubiquitous with Ferrari as dealers are obligated to sell new at MSRP.
I agree it's an ADM either way.
09-13-2018, 08:00 PM
#460
A few thoughts in random order to contribute:
- PAG will produce as many (high profit) GT cars as they can sell worldwide - this is what happened with the non-limited production 991.1 GT cars. But they don't want that to be clear so they never disclose actual global production numbers which might impact pricing objectives and demand.
- PAG HEV/PHEV initiatives (as do Turbo charged solutions) increase their global emission production limits for even more high profit GT cars to be built. Side Note: According to Kacher in Automobile 9/7/18 ' Rumor also has it that Porsche is investigating an all-electric sports car scenario' - even if only in part true, GT cars will not be affected by emissions limits and will continue to be built in numbers with no disclosed ceiling.
- PCNA (and maybe PAG) feed the false scarcity dialogue for non-limited GT cars in order to pump demand. A little digging around one can find multiple instances where PCNA would state a number of how many 991.1GT3 RS were to allocated for the US only to have that number increased a few months later and onward and upward (from 600 estimate to over 1500 actual).
- Anecdotally (and don't ask how I know) I can say that VIP's that are kicked out of the program are told they shouldn't worry about it because they will be able to get the cars they want based upon their dealer relationship alone. This indicates that supply is plentiful for non-limited production GT cars.
- PCNA is a known channel stuffer. Forcing dealers to floor slower moving and lower margin stock that they cannot sell. Lots of unsold new stuff sitting around on lots. Tough for single store owners in small markets. Note: channel stuffing is not uncommon for manufacturers of lesser brands but Porsche should be above this practice - and it indicates production exceeding demand.
- Champion per their LinkedIn page: About us. The largest volume Porsche dealer in the Americas for the past 27 years. That is why we have the largest allocation and the best selection of new cars.
- Champion sells more of the channel stuffing cars than any other dealer in the US and gets therefore the highest allocation of GT cars.
- PCNA is looking at a fraud case apparently involving their #1 dealer which is a real PR problem for them if the story gets traction. And if PCNA was aware of the issue and did not act to police the situation they are at risk.
- Combining multiple factors discussed; Porsche will increase global production of high profit GT cars as much as possible as other low margin cars (Cayman/Boxster) and/or vehicles facing much higher market competition (SUV's) move to (at least in part) electric. Note: in 2017 Porsche Macan accounted for almost 40% of PAG's sales worldwide so if SUV sales slow at all that is going to be another problem.
- The channel is stuffed with SUV's and low margin cars, which dealers cannot readily move even at MSRP, but those that take the stuffing are rewarded with GT cars based upon their volume. As that is PCNA's model, dealers are motivated to take inventory of other stuff and then to overshoot anticipated market demand for the high margin stuff (and over order that) and PCNA is not going to tell them no as long as they play along. Many dealers do not like dealers like Champion that sell cars out of market to increase their volume at the expense of the local dealer (another issue PCNA has not been motivated to resolve it seems).
- Champion is a major retailer in the PCNA chain which is a real problem for PCNA. Maybe, mostly because, if handled poorly it will say to their US (and maybe global) dealer network ... 'if you mismanage your dealership and you are big enough, even if it is an embarrassment to the brand, we wont penalize you'. That's a bad precedent to set - and it's anti-consumer . Seems VW group has enough headaches already.
... a lot there hope it adds to the conversation.
- PAG will produce as many (high profit) GT cars as they can sell worldwide - this is what happened with the non-limited production 991.1 GT cars. But they don't want that to be clear so they never disclose actual global production numbers which might impact pricing objectives and demand.
- PAG HEV/PHEV initiatives (as do Turbo charged solutions) increase their global emission production limits for even more high profit GT cars to be built. Side Note: According to Kacher in Automobile 9/7/18 ' Rumor also has it that Porsche is investigating an all-electric sports car scenario' - even if only in part true, GT cars will not be affected by emissions limits and will continue to be built in numbers with no disclosed ceiling.
- PCNA (and maybe PAG) feed the false scarcity dialogue for non-limited GT cars in order to pump demand. A little digging around one can find multiple instances where PCNA would state a number of how many 991.1GT3 RS were to allocated for the US only to have that number increased a few months later and onward and upward (from 600 estimate to over 1500 actual).
- Anecdotally (and don't ask how I know) I can say that VIP's that are kicked out of the program are told they shouldn't worry about it because they will be able to get the cars they want based upon their dealer relationship alone. This indicates that supply is plentiful for non-limited production GT cars.
- PCNA is a known channel stuffer. Forcing dealers to floor slower moving and lower margin stock that they cannot sell. Lots of unsold new stuff sitting around on lots. Tough for single store owners in small markets. Note: channel stuffing is not uncommon for manufacturers of lesser brands but Porsche should be above this practice - and it indicates production exceeding demand.
- Champion per their LinkedIn page: About us. The largest volume Porsche dealer in the Americas for the past 27 years. That is why we have the largest allocation and the best selection of new cars.
- Champion sells more of the channel stuffing cars than any other dealer in the US and gets therefore the highest allocation of GT cars.
- PCNA is looking at a fraud case apparently involving their #1 dealer which is a real PR problem for them if the story gets traction. And if PCNA was aware of the issue and did not act to police the situation they are at risk.
- Combining multiple factors discussed; Porsche will increase global production of high profit GT cars as much as possible as other low margin cars (Cayman/Boxster) and/or vehicles facing much higher market competition (SUV's) move to (at least in part) electric. Note: in 2017 Porsche Macan accounted for almost 40% of PAG's sales worldwide so if SUV sales slow at all that is going to be another problem.
- The channel is stuffed with SUV's and low margin cars, which dealers cannot readily move even at MSRP, but those that take the stuffing are rewarded with GT cars based upon their volume. As that is PCNA's model, dealers are motivated to take inventory of other stuff and then to overshoot anticipated market demand for the high margin stuff (and over order that) and PCNA is not going to tell them no as long as they play along. Many dealers do not like dealers like Champion that sell cars out of market to increase their volume at the expense of the local dealer (another issue PCNA has not been motivated to resolve it seems).
- Champion is a major retailer in the PCNA chain which is a real problem for PCNA. Maybe, mostly because, if handled poorly it will say to their US (and maybe global) dealer network ... 'if you mismanage your dealership and you are big enough, even if it is an embarrassment to the brand, we wont penalize you'. That's a bad precedent to set - and it's anti-consumer . Seems VW group has enough headaches already.
... a lot there hope it adds to the conversation.
09-13-2018, 08:10 PM
#461
Race Director
pors9 -- Well summarized and pretty spot on. A lot of dirty secrets that don't exposed often.
Like I mentioned before, they use these GT cars as incentives and bonuses for all the other stuff. PCNA will hold that card tight to their chest to have dealers under their thumb. The end user enthusiast buyer isn't even a concern. They are just a pawn in the game who gets taken advantage of to further PAG's/PCNA's agenda.
Like I mentioned before, they use these GT cars as incentives and bonuses for all the other stuff. PCNA will hold that card tight to their chest to have dealers under their thumb. The end user enthusiast buyer isn't even a concern. They are just a pawn in the game who gets taken advantage of to further PAG's/PCNA's agenda.
09-13-2018, 08:14 PM
#462
A few thoughts in random order to contribute:
- PAG will produce as many (high profit) GT cars as they can sell worldwide - this is what happened with the non-limited production 991.1 GT cars. But they don't want that to be clear so they never disclose actual global production numbers which might impact pricing objectives and demand.
- PAG HEV/PHEV initiatives (as do Turbo charged solutions) increase their global emission production limits for even more high profit GT cars to be built. Side Note: According to Kacher in Automobile 9/7/18 ' Rumor also has it that Porsche is investigating an all-electric sports car scenario' - even if only in part true, GT cars will not be affected by emissions limits and will continue to be built in numbers with no disclosed ceiling.
- PCNA (and maybe PAG) feed the false scarcity dialogue for non-limited GT cars in order to pump demand. A little digging around one can find multiple instances where PCNA would state a number of how many 991.1GT3 RS were to allocated for the US only to have that number increased a few months later and onward and upward (from 600 estimate to over 1500 actual).
- Anecdotally (and don't ask how I know) I can say that VIP's that are kicked out of the program are told they shouldn't worry about it because they will be able to get the cars they want based upon their dealer relationship alone. This indicates that supply is plentiful for non-limited production GT cars.
- PCNA is a known channel stuffer. Forcing dealers to floor slower moving and lower margin stock that they cannot sell. Lots of unsold new stuff sitting around on lots. Tough for single store owners in small markets. Note: channel stuffing is not uncommon for manufacturers of lesser brands but Porsche should be above this practice - and it indicates production exceeding demand.
- Champion per their LinkedIn page: About us. The largest volume Porsche dealer in the Americas for the past 27 years. That is why we have the largest allocation and the best selection of new cars.
- Champion sells more of the channel stuffing cars than any other dealer in the US and gets therefore the highest allocation of GT cars.
- PCNA is looking at a fraud case apparently involving their #1 dealer which is a real PR problem for them if the story gets traction. And if PCNA was aware of the issue and did not act to police the situation they are at risk.
- Combining multiple factors discussed; Porsche will increase global production of high profit GT cars as much as possible as other low margin cars (Cayman/Boxster) and/or vehicles facing much higher market competition (SUV's) move to (at least in part) electric. Note: in 2017 Porsche Macan accounted for almost 40% of PAG's sales worldwide so if SUV sales slow at all that is going to be another problem.
- The channel is stuffed with SUV's and low margin cars, which dealers cannot readily move even at MSRP, but those that take the stuffing are rewarded with GT cars based upon their volume. As that is PCNA's model, dealers are motivated to take inventory of other stuff and then to overshoot anticipated market demand for the high margin stuff (and over order that) and PCNA is not going to tell them no as long as they play along. Many dealers do not like dealers like Champion that sell cars out of market to increase their volume at the expense of the local dealer (another issue PCNA has not been motivated to resolve it seems).
- Champion is a major retailer in the PCNA chain which is a real problem for PCNA. Maybe, mostly because, if handled poorly it will say to their US (and maybe global) dealer network ... 'if you mismanage your dealership and you are big enough, even if it is an embarrassment to the brand, we wont penalize you'. That's a bad precedent to set - and it's anti-consumer . Seems VW group has enough headaches already.
... a lot there hope it adds to the conversation.
- PAG will produce as many (high profit) GT cars as they can sell worldwide - this is what happened with the non-limited production 991.1 GT cars. But they don't want that to be clear so they never disclose actual global production numbers which might impact pricing objectives and demand.
- PAG HEV/PHEV initiatives (as do Turbo charged solutions) increase their global emission production limits for even more high profit GT cars to be built. Side Note: According to Kacher in Automobile 9/7/18 ' Rumor also has it that Porsche is investigating an all-electric sports car scenario' - even if only in part true, GT cars will not be affected by emissions limits and will continue to be built in numbers with no disclosed ceiling.
- PCNA (and maybe PAG) feed the false scarcity dialogue for non-limited GT cars in order to pump demand. A little digging around one can find multiple instances where PCNA would state a number of how many 991.1GT3 RS were to allocated for the US only to have that number increased a few months later and onward and upward (from 600 estimate to over 1500 actual).
- Anecdotally (and don't ask how I know) I can say that VIP's that are kicked out of the program are told they shouldn't worry about it because they will be able to get the cars they want based upon their dealer relationship alone. This indicates that supply is plentiful for non-limited production GT cars.
- PCNA is a known channel stuffer. Forcing dealers to floor slower moving and lower margin stock that they cannot sell. Lots of unsold new stuff sitting around on lots. Tough for single store owners in small markets. Note: channel stuffing is not uncommon for manufacturers of lesser brands but Porsche should be above this practice - and it indicates production exceeding demand.
- Champion per their LinkedIn page: About us. The largest volume Porsche dealer in the Americas for the past 27 years. That is why we have the largest allocation and the best selection of new cars.
- Champion sells more of the channel stuffing cars than any other dealer in the US and gets therefore the highest allocation of GT cars.
- PCNA is looking at a fraud case apparently involving their #1 dealer which is a real PR problem for them if the story gets traction. And if PCNA was aware of the issue and did not act to police the situation they are at risk.
- Combining multiple factors discussed; Porsche will increase global production of high profit GT cars as much as possible as other low margin cars (Cayman/Boxster) and/or vehicles facing much higher market competition (SUV's) move to (at least in part) electric. Note: in 2017 Porsche Macan accounted for almost 40% of PAG's sales worldwide so if SUV sales slow at all that is going to be another problem.
- The channel is stuffed with SUV's and low margin cars, which dealers cannot readily move even at MSRP, but those that take the stuffing are rewarded with GT cars based upon their volume. As that is PCNA's model, dealers are motivated to take inventory of other stuff and then to overshoot anticipated market demand for the high margin stuff (and over order that) and PCNA is not going to tell them no as long as they play along. Many dealers do not like dealers like Champion that sell cars out of market to increase their volume at the expense of the local dealer (another issue PCNA has not been motivated to resolve it seems).
- Champion is a major retailer in the PCNA chain which is a real problem for PCNA. Maybe, mostly because, if handled poorly it will say to their US (and maybe global) dealer network ... 'if you mismanage your dealership and you are big enough, even if it is an embarrassment to the brand, we wont penalize you'. That's a bad precedent to set - and it's anti-consumer . Seems VW group has enough headaches already.
... a lot there hope it adds to the conversation.
09-13-2018, 08:18 PM
#463
Race Director
Originally Posted by fuddman
Perhaps you know the answer to this: GT cars (above GTS cars) all sell for over MSRP. Or at least most do. Porsche knows this. So why don't they raise the MSRP of the GT line? It seems to me they are deliberately setting a low MSRP to give the dealer an ADM bonus. Why?
They realize the financial bubble in the US isn't going to last forever. They can't out price themselves for the future. What are they gonna do, drop prices in 3-5 years?? These cars aren't exactly cheap as is. They aren't underpriced at all. Just overhyped and over speculated right now.
Have you seen how high priced all the other models are vs. the competion?? An $80K BASE model Cayenne?? $50K stripper 4cy Macan's? $100K+ Panny's? They're pushing the ceiling as is.
These GT cars aren't maintaining value and selling at such high ADM's elsewhere in the world.
The USA is an anomaly right now. Won't be like this sometime in the next 5 years.
09-13-2018, 08:23 PM
#464
Perhaps you know the answer to this: GT cars (above GTS cars) all sell for over MSRP. Or at least most do. Porsche knows this. So why don't they raise the MSRP of the GT line? It seems to me they are deliberately setting a low MSRP on their GT cars to give the dealer an ADM bonus. Why? Why does Porsche forgo a sure thing profit and , instead, passes it to the dealers?
09-13-2018, 08:35 PM
#465
And someone posted it on YELP.....Good luck to all
9/8/2018Champion Porsche took my payment for new 991.2 GT3 (Paint to Sample) and did not deliver the car or return the money. Jim Hahn (Sales Manager) will not return calls or emails.
Why would the "#1 Porsche Dealer in the USA" operate a business like this?
9/8/2018Champion Porsche took my payment for new 991.2 GT3 (Paint to Sample) and did not deliver the car or return the money. Jim Hahn (Sales Manager) will not return calls or emails.
Why would the "#1 Porsche Dealer in the USA" operate a business like this?