GT car / Salesman - Shiraaz Sookralli - Champion Porsche's VP of Marketing
09-13-2018, 08:39 AM
#361
09-13-2018, 09:30 AM
#362
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Just catching up to all of this and I feel terrible for the clients/RLers etc who are involved with this mess... I'm upset and feel for you guys reading this as someone who had to pay an ADM to an out of state dealership for my GT3 as well
As a "retired" attorney I'd highly encourage any and all of you to seek out legal advice immediately, whether it be the guy mentioned 10x here on this thread or not. There are numerous things standing out to me like business across state lines (now its a fed case), the amount of $ in question, similar harm/damage to similarly situated plaintiffs, respondeat superior & laws of agency, etc to where a strong case should/could be made for fraud/negligence etc. I don't think Champion has to scramble to find $2.5M+ if/when the time comes, their assets alone are worth much more than that. I'd even look into some sort of injunctive relief to freeze Champion's bank accounts/assets in an extreme measure if your lawyer deems it prudent since Champion has been AWOL, and hell I'd see if punitive damages are possible since it seems like this isn't the first time Champion might have found themselves in this situation. The more that can band together the better IMO to put a strong showing that this isn't just one guy who lost $100k in the eyes of a judge, but a group of angry and hurt people who are collectively facing $2M+ loss by a dealership that has run into these types of issues before apparently.
The fact that Champion has been quiet about this is very upsetting, whether or not it was a sole rogue actor. Assume that it was, and the business should still do right to the clients and fully make them whole and more. What is also upsetting is the fact that this should also fall on the lap of PCNA even though it won't. PCNA better be really thinking hard about how they allocate GT cars and to whom because their current approach IMO led to this mess. Let the dealers do as they please in the US, charge whatever price they want, and boom all the dealers got so shortsightedly greedy. Waiting lists went to the wayside, different SAs at the same dealership will have different answers on GT process/politics/games/ADM amounts etc. I mean someone else said in a different thread that Porsche of Bellevue (AutoNation dealership in WA btw) is asking for $50k over already for 992.1 GT3. A Porsche of San Diego SA told me last week that "they have sold all GT3 positions for the next 2 years for 30K over" whatever that means. Porsche South Bay told me I can queue up for 992.1 GT3 and be one of the first on the list "to pay market price" (GTFOH). What in the hell?
This has to be a wake up call, Porsche is hurting the customers that they should focus on keeping, the enthusiasts... Between the typical Pcar dealer arrogance/terrible experience in both sales and service, the ADMs/games/politics/"build a relationship that mutually benefits us where we can share profit"/and now this surfacing with people losing a lot of hard earned money to try and obtain a car they really wanted, I've never been more turned off to the Porsche brand even as a die hard 911 guy. A shame too because their cars are killer. Think about how many who would have loved to get the call for that MSRP allocation and didn't because we have brokers/flippers buying allocations or dealers speccing the car themselves to flip or collaborating with a VIP to spec, "turn in" or "trade", and then flip. So people instead try to secure any GT allocation they can find (because they are now even more scarce and hard to get) to build the car the way they want (who wouldn't want that), and we have this happening now. I look at it as PCNA's hands are dirty, same with Champion even if it was one guy. This is what happens when there is a systemic problem of letting it be the wild Wild West with no process/rules/clarity on how someone can obtain a Porsche GT car, and letting each and every US dealer do as they please. And the people who got hurt the most are the people who would buy/spec/enjoy the car for its intended purpose. Not for a boutique/exotic used car company in California or Texas or Florida etc, or AutoNation dealerships big West/East coast dealerships etc having these GT cars sit on the lot at an ADM, but for the enthusiasts to enjoy and drive.
Sorry to all who are impacted by this, did not enjoy reading this
As a "retired" attorney I'd highly encourage any and all of you to seek out legal advice immediately, whether it be the guy mentioned 10x here on this thread or not. There are numerous things standing out to me like business across state lines (now its a fed case), the amount of $ in question, similar harm/damage to similarly situated plaintiffs, respondeat superior & laws of agency, etc to where a strong case should/could be made for fraud/negligence etc. I don't think Champion has to scramble to find $2.5M+ if/when the time comes, their assets alone are worth much more than that. I'd even look into some sort of injunctive relief to freeze Champion's bank accounts/assets in an extreme measure if your lawyer deems it prudent since Champion has been AWOL, and hell I'd see if punitive damages are possible since it seems like this isn't the first time Champion might have found themselves in this situation. The more that can band together the better IMO to put a strong showing that this isn't just one guy who lost $100k in the eyes of a judge, but a group of angry and hurt people who are collectively facing $2M+ loss by a dealership that has run into these types of issues before apparently.
The fact that Champion has been quiet about this is very upsetting, whether or not it was a sole rogue actor. Assume that it was, and the business should still do right to the clients and fully make them whole and more. What is also upsetting is the fact that this should also fall on the lap of PCNA even though it won't. PCNA better be really thinking hard about how they allocate GT cars and to whom because their current approach IMO led to this mess. Let the dealers do as they please in the US, charge whatever price they want, and boom all the dealers got so shortsightedly greedy. Waiting lists went to the wayside, different SAs at the same dealership will have different answers on GT process/politics/games/ADM amounts etc. I mean someone else said in a different thread that Porsche of Bellevue (AutoNation dealership in WA btw) is asking for $50k over already for 992.1 GT3. A Porsche of San Diego SA told me last week that "they have sold all GT3 positions for the next 2 years for 30K over" whatever that means. Porsche South Bay told me I can queue up for 992.1 GT3 and be one of the first on the list "to pay market price" (GTFOH). What in the hell?
This has to be a wake up call, Porsche is hurting the customers that they should focus on keeping, the enthusiasts... Between the typical Pcar dealer arrogance/terrible experience in both sales and service, the ADMs/games/politics/"build a relationship that mutually benefits us where we can share profit"/and now this surfacing with people losing a lot of hard earned money to try and obtain a car they really wanted, I've never been more turned off to the Porsche brand even as a die hard 911 guy. A shame too because their cars are killer. Think about how many who would have loved to get the call for that MSRP allocation and didn't because we have brokers/flippers buying allocations or dealers speccing the car themselves to flip or collaborating with a VIP to spec, "turn in" or "trade", and then flip. So people instead try to secure any GT allocation they can find (because they are now even more scarce and hard to get) to build the car the way they want (who wouldn't want that), and we have this happening now. I look at it as PCNA's hands are dirty, same with Champion even if it was one guy. This is what happens when there is a systemic problem of letting it be the wild Wild West with no process/rules/clarity on how someone can obtain a Porsche GT car, and letting each and every US dealer do as they please. And the people who got hurt the most are the people who would buy/spec/enjoy the car for its intended purpose. Not for a boutique/exotic used car company in California or Texas or Florida etc, or AutoNation dealerships big West/East coast dealerships etc having these GT cars sit on the lot at an ADM, but for the enthusiasts to enjoy and drive.
Sorry to all who are impacted by this, did not enjoy reading this
09-13-2018, 09:43 AM
#363
Forgive me if I'm wrong, but in the US the law is that you cant force a car dealer to sell a vehicle at any price. However, Porsche could engage in creative ways in allocating cars whereby it could harm the dealers potential to receive future allocations if they engage in the practice of ADM.
09-13-2018, 09:53 AM
#364
Rennlist Member
To you idiots who got scammed by this I just want you to know........it easily could have been me too. Most times I hear about scams I think, what moron would fall for this? A Craigslist 993TT for $32K, Nigerian email, anything regarding Western Union, all of these things stink from a mile away but are fed by greed. This type of scam though would be the perfect one to steal UserAs money. Sitting in a dealership, a huge dealership, talking with the big sales guy and being offered a mix of real paperwork and a couple fake sheets......I would have fallen for it with 99.9998% certainty. No idea about liability and who is to blame, but I just wanted to let those of you hurt by this know that I consider myself relatively intelligent, but that I would have fallen hard for this too. I hope that offers a tiny bit of consolation to you guys.
Luckily, I only like air cooled 911s so people don't have to even try to fleece money out of me, I freely give it to them.
Luckily, I only like air cooled 911s so people don't have to even try to fleece money out of me, I freely give it to them.
09-13-2018, 10:24 AM
#365
RL Community Team
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
I've seen ADM's from pretty much every brand, foreign and domestic. If there's a hot car, dealers will mark it up. CTS V's, Mustang Shelby's, M Cars, Corvettes, Vipers, AMG GTR's, etc. If it's a hot car with a limited supply, dealers are going to mark up to punish those that "have to be first".
09-13-2018, 10:31 AM
#367
Civic Type R's had ADM's on them. $25k reportedly in some spots.
I've seen ADM's from pretty much every brand, foreign and domestic. If there's a hot car, dealers will mark it up. CTS V's, Mustang Shelby's, M Cars, Corvettes, Vipers, AMG GTR's, etc. If it's a hot car with a limited supply, dealers are going to mark up to punish those that "have to be first".
I've seen ADM's from pretty much every brand, foreign and domestic. If there's a hot car, dealers will mark it up. CTS V's, Mustang Shelby's, M Cars, Corvettes, Vipers, AMG GTR's, etc. If it's a hot car with a limited supply, dealers are going to mark up to punish those that "have to be first".
09-13-2018, 10:33 AM
#368
Civic Type R's had ADM's on them. $25k reportedly in some spots.
I've seen ADM's from pretty much every brand, foreign and domestic. If there's a hot car, dealers will mark it up. CTS V's, Mustang Shelby's, M Cars, Corvettes, Vipers, AMG GTR's, etc. If it's a hot car with a limited supply, dealers are going to mark up to punish those that "have to be first".
I've seen ADM's from pretty much every brand, foreign and domestic. If there's a hot car, dealers will mark it up. CTS V's, Mustang Shelby's, M Cars, Corvettes, Vipers, AMG GTR's, etc. If it's a hot car with a limited supply, dealers are going to mark up to punish those that "have to be first".
I was planning on going to Champion today to get some parts - be interesting to see what the "atmosphere" is like. Braman must be loving this
09-13-2018, 10:34 AM
#369
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If we're going to have an unfettered market for these GT cars, we to have accept that WE collectively are own worst enemy, and financially there are going to be both winners and losers.
09-13-2018, 10:41 AM
#370
Forgive me if I'm wrong, but in the US the law is that you cant force a car dealer to sell a vehicle at any price. However, Porsche could engage in creative ways in allocating cars whereby it could harm the dealers potential to receive future allocations if they engage in the practice of ADM.
The problem is not the over MSRP price, car business is complex and not based on simple cash sales. The real problem is the shady business they run.
IF a dealer wants to charge more for a limited car, do it, BUT they play games, with 991.1 both GT3 and GT3RS there was no scarcity, dealers were hoarding cars. MSRP dealers would email me asking me if I wanted a RS for MSRP but I'd have to also buy their most expensive Panamera.
SO instead of customers receiving allocations and building their own cars, dealers are using customers names to build them and then let them sit in their showroom.
Porsche knows all this and doesn't care a bit because they're making more money this way.
09-13-2018, 10:47 AM
#371
Racer
There's been a big uptick in this kind of thing in the last few years because manufacturers have figured out that if they make an enthusiast trim and undershoot demand, it'll create hype and draw attention to the brand.
The flip side is that you end up with a bunch of pissed off enthusiasts who just want to buy the damned car and enjoy it, rather than getting abused by greedy dealers and having to fight with flippers to get cars. And now we have this situation where greed turns to outright scamming.
09-13-2018, 10:51 AM
#372
A couple of people in this thread have mentioned that they contacted PCNA directly to verify their commission number and build sheet.
Can anyone recommend a PCNA contact (email, or phone) to assist with this?
Can anyone recommend a PCNA contact (email, or phone) to assist with this?
09-13-2018, 11:48 AM
#373
Three Wheelin'
BINGO! 
All manufacturers have a somewhat "halo" or specialty cars. These are either or both numbered and limited which drives the market crazy. Not the manufacturers fault if they only produce one-thousand even if they know they can sell five-thousand.
Many have said, if you don't approve, use your wallet, don't buy. It's your money anyway. Exclusivity cost $money$. My $0.02.
Drive safe,
GT3RS-Fan1
All manufacturers have a somewhat "halo" or specialty cars. These are either or both numbered and limited which drives the market crazy. Not the manufacturers fault if they only produce one-thousand even if they know they can sell five-thousand.
Many have said, if you don't approve, use your wallet, don't buy. It's your money anyway. Exclusivity cost $money$. My $0.02.
Drive safe,
GT3RS-Fan1
Civic Type R's had ADM's on them. $25k reportedly in some spots.
I've seen ADM's from pretty much every brand, foreign and domestic. If there's a hot car, dealers will mark it up. CTS V's, Mustang Shelby's, M Cars, Corvettes, Vipers, AMG GTR's, etc. If it's a hot car with a limited supply, dealers are going to mark up to punish those that "have to be first".
I've seen ADM's from pretty much every brand, foreign and domestic. If there's a hot car, dealers will mark it up. CTS V's, Mustang Shelby's, M Cars, Corvettes, Vipers, AMG GTR's, etc. If it's a hot car with a limited supply, dealers are going to mark up to punish those that "have to be first".
09-13-2018, 11:55 AM
#374
Rennlist Member
Do any other brands have the practice of the retailer selling over MSRP? I realize there aren't any laws preventing it and still games played by selling new car purchases at MSRP back to the dealer. But does anyone else do it as blatantly and rampantly as the Porsche GT ADM game; where the dealer is actually charging over MSRP on new merchandise? I'm all for free market but it does seem like Porsche is risking some longer-term brand damage in the US with how their GT product is being distributed? I am fortunate enough to by most of my stuff at MSRP. So I benefit from the "small-depreciation" effect of ADM's being added on top. But it does seem like it's tarnishing the brand a little. Idk?
How does Rolex enforce no over-MSRP new sales? I'm sure most truly loyal and BIG long-term Porsche clients are taken care of and able to buy at list. But this current ADM environment just breeds an "auction to highest bidder" client base vs a brand loyalty model. Maybe the current adm game is worth more in the near-term than any longer-term brand loyalty creates? Maybe the dealers and Porsche are smart because the whole model and product is going to be a dinosaur (along with its client base) in a few years?
How does Rolex enforce no over-MSRP new sales? I'm sure most truly loyal and BIG long-term Porsche clients are taken care of and able to buy at list. But this current ADM environment just breeds an "auction to highest bidder" client base vs a brand loyalty model. Maybe the current adm game is worth more in the near-term than any longer-term brand loyalty creates? Maybe the dealers and Porsche are smart because the whole model and product is going to be a dinosaur (along with its client base) in a few years?
09-13-2018, 12:00 PM
#375
Rennlist Member
To you idiots who got scammed by this I just want you to know........it easily could have been me too. Most times I hear about scams I think, what moron would fall for this? A Craigslist 993TT for $32K, Nigerian email, anything regarding Western Union, all of these things stink from a mile away but are fed by greed. This type of scam though would be the perfect one to steal UserAs money. Sitting in a dealership, a huge dealership, talking with the big sales guy and being offered a mix of real paperwork and a couple fake sheets......I would have fallen for it with 99.9998% certainty. No idea about liability and who is to blame, but I just wanted to let those of you hurt by this know that I consider myself relatively intelligent, but that I would have fallen hard for this too. I hope that offers a tiny bit of consolation to you guys.
Luckily, I only like air cooled 911s so people don't have to even try to fleece money out of me, I freely give it to them.
Luckily, I only like air cooled 911s so people don't have to even try to fleece money out of me, I freely give it to them.
