GT car / Salesman - Shiraaz Sookralli - Champion Porsche's VP of Marketing
09-13-2018, 03:22 AM
#346
Except for one very important difference. All authorized dealers of Rolex, Patek, Omega and AP are obligated to sell their new watches at a price not exceeding the MSRP. To do otherwise would jeopardize their franchise. The problem is the stupid people who want something so bad they are willing to pay more. That drives the secondary market. The reputable watch dealers do not sell new watches at a premium. Neither do reputable auto dealers.
I'm still amazed at the marketing genius of Rolex. They spew out over one million watches a year and still can project the illusion that they are somehow rare and special!
I'm still amazed at the marketing genius of Rolex. They spew out over one million watches a year and still can project the illusion that they are somehow rare and special!
09-13-2018, 05:35 AM
#347
One thing about a Rolex is that it lasts. They are old tech and that helps them stay around. They are not the most accurate watches but they are distinctive and easily recognized.
They do appreciate, $750 GMT Master II's "Coke" from decades ago are listed from $5k to $7k, if you can find them.
And Rolex dealers will not deal. You can save tax if you purchase them in places such as Las Vegas, that's it. Another thing about Rolex, if you modify you watch in any way outside of their service centers/dealers, they will not repair it. Further, if they do modify your watch and replace parts, they won't return the parts taken off.
They control their brand quite tightly. Exclusivity has a price and Porsche is cashing in on that as well. As is the secondary market, which is full of pitfalls. And are unscrupulous car dealers/sales advisors uncommon? It's always been buyer beware. Human greed will never go away. When the sales item is highly desirable, the buyer is at the mercy of the seller.
They do appreciate, $750 GMT Master II's "Coke" from decades ago are listed from $5k to $7k, if you can find them.
And Rolex dealers will not deal. You can save tax if you purchase them in places such as Las Vegas, that's it. Another thing about Rolex, if you modify you watch in any way outside of their service centers/dealers, they will not repair it. Further, if they do modify your watch and replace parts, they won't return the parts taken off.
They control their brand quite tightly. Exclusivity has a price and Porsche is cashing in on that as well. As is the secondary market, which is full of pitfalls. And are unscrupulous car dealers/sales advisors uncommon? It's always been buyer beware. Human greed will never go away. When the sales item is highly desirable, the buyer is at the mercy of the seller.
09-13-2018, 07:03 AM
#348
Champion not a victim.
Yes, I’ve discussed my issues in great detail with Alan. If victims want to prepare their selves, this may Be our only real shot at getting the car we expected. I suggest contacting Alan first thing tomorrow. If Champion cared about their customer, their reputation, we would have been contacted by their highest exec to say, we’re sorry but we’re gonna figure out a way to make it right. You certainly don’t have their attorney call so he can say, sorry it happened but Champions a victim too.
Jim Hahn all tennis and no supervision. #JimmyTennis
09-13-2018, 07:08 AM
#349
Just catching up to all of this and I feel terrible for the clients/RLers etc who are involved with this mess... I'm upset and feel for you guys reading this as someone who had to pay an ADM to an out of state dealership for my GT3 as well
As a "retired" attorney I'd highly encourage any and all of you to seek out legal advice immediately, whether it be the guy mentioned 10x here on this thread or not. There are numerous things standing out to me like business across state lines (now its a fed case), the amount of $ in question, similar harm/damage to similarly situated plaintiffs, respondeat superior & laws of agency, etc to where a strong case should/could be made for fraud/negligence etc. I don't think Champion has to scramble to find $2.5M+ if/when the time comes, their assets alone are worth much more than that. I'd even look into some sort of injunctive relief to freeze Champion's bank accounts/assets in an extreme measure if your lawyer deems it prudent since Champion has been AWOL, and hell I'd see if punitive damages are possible since it seems like this isn't the first time Champion might have found themselves in this situation. The more that can band together the better IMO to put a strong showing that this isn't just one guy who lost $100k in the eyes of a judge, but a group of angry and hurt people who are collectively facing $2M+ loss by a dealership that has run into these types of issues before apparently.
The fact that Champion has been quiet about this is very upsetting, whether or not it was a sole rogue actor. Assume that it was, and the business should still do right to the clients and fully make them whole and more. What is also upsetting is the fact that this should also fall on the lap of PCNA even though it won't. PCNA better be really thinking hard about how they allocate GT cars and to whom because their current approach IMO led to this mess. Let the dealers do as they please in the US, charge whatever price they want, and boom all the dealers got so shortsightedly greedy. Waiting lists went to the wayside, different SAs at the same dealership will have different answers on GT process/politics/games/ADM amounts etc. I mean someone else said in a different thread that Porsche of Bellevue (AutoNation dealership in WA btw) is asking for $50k over already for 992.1 GT3. A Porsche of San Diego SA told me last week that "they have sold all GT3 positions for the next 2 years for 30K over" whatever that means. Porsche South Bay told me I can queue up for 992.1 GT3 and be one of the first on the list "to pay market price" (GTFOH). What in the hell?
This has to be a wake up call, Porsche is hurting the customers that they should focus on keeping, the enthusiasts... Between the typical Pcar dealer arrogance/terrible experience in both sales and service, the ADMs/games/politics/"build a relationship that mutually benefits us where we can share profit"/and now this surfacing with people losing a lot of hard earned money to try and obtain a car they really wanted, I've never been more turned off to the Porsche brand even as a die hard 911 guy. A shame too because their cars are killer. Think about how many who would have loved to get the call for that MSRP allocation and didn't because we have brokers/flippers buying allocations or dealers speccing the car themselves to flip or collaborating with a VIP to spec, "turn in" or "trade", and then flip. So people instead try to secure any GT allocation they can find (because they are now even more scarce and hard to get) to build the car the way they want (who wouldn't want that), and we have this happening now. I look at it as PCNA's hands are dirty, same with Champion even if it was one guy. This is what happens when there is a systemic problem of letting it be the wild Wild West with no process/rules/clarity on how someone can obtain a Porsche GT car, and letting each and every US dealer do as they please. And the people who got hurt the most are the people who would buy/spec/enjoy the car for its intended purpose. Not for a boutique/exotic used car company in California or Texas or Florida etc, or AutoNation dealerships big West/East coast dealerships etc having these GT cars sit on the lot at an ADM, but for the enthusiasts to enjoy and drive.
Sorry to all who are impacted by this, did not enjoy reading this
As a "retired" attorney I'd highly encourage any and all of you to seek out legal advice immediately, whether it be the guy mentioned 10x here on this thread or not. There are numerous things standing out to me like business across state lines (now its a fed case), the amount of $ in question, similar harm/damage to similarly situated plaintiffs, respondeat superior & laws of agency, etc to where a strong case should/could be made for fraud/negligence etc. I don't think Champion has to scramble to find $2.5M+ if/when the time comes, their assets alone are worth much more than that. I'd even look into some sort of injunctive relief to freeze Champion's bank accounts/assets in an extreme measure if your lawyer deems it prudent since Champion has been AWOL, and hell I'd see if punitive damages are possible since it seems like this isn't the first time Champion might have found themselves in this situation. The more that can band together the better IMO to put a strong showing that this isn't just one guy who lost $100k in the eyes of a judge, but a group of angry and hurt people who are collectively facing $2M+ loss by a dealership that has run into these types of issues before apparently.
The fact that Champion has been quiet about this is very upsetting, whether or not it was a sole rogue actor. Assume that it was, and the business should still do right to the clients and fully make them whole and more. What is also upsetting is the fact that this should also fall on the lap of PCNA even though it won't. PCNA better be really thinking hard about how they allocate GT cars and to whom because their current approach IMO led to this mess. Let the dealers do as they please in the US, charge whatever price they want, and boom all the dealers got so shortsightedly greedy. Waiting lists went to the wayside, different SAs at the same dealership will have different answers on GT process/politics/games/ADM amounts etc. I mean someone else said in a different thread that Porsche of Bellevue (AutoNation dealership in WA btw) is asking for $50k over already for 992.1 GT3. A Porsche of San Diego SA told me last week that "they have sold all GT3 positions for the next 2 years for 30K over" whatever that means. Porsche South Bay told me I can queue up for 992.1 GT3 and be one of the first on the list "to pay market price" (GTFOH). What in the hell?
This has to be a wake up call, Porsche is hurting the customers that they should focus on keeping, the enthusiasts... Between the typical Pcar dealer arrogance/terrible experience in both sales and service, the ADMs/games/politics/"build a relationship that mutually benefits us where we can share profit"/and now this surfacing with people losing a lot of hard earned money to try and obtain a car they really wanted, I've never been more turned off to the Porsche brand even as a die hard 911 guy. A shame too because their cars are killer. Think about how many who would have loved to get the call for that MSRP allocation and didn't because we have brokers/flippers buying allocations or dealers speccing the car themselves to flip or collaborating with a VIP to spec, "turn in" or "trade", and then flip. So people instead try to secure any GT allocation they can find (because they are now even more scarce and hard to get) to build the car the way they want (who wouldn't want that), and we have this happening now. I look at it as PCNA's hands are dirty, same with Champion even if it was one guy. This is what happens when there is a systemic problem of letting it be the wild Wild West with no process/rules/clarity on how someone can obtain a Porsche GT car, and letting each and every US dealer do as they please. And the people who got hurt the most are the people who would buy/spec/enjoy the car for its intended purpose. Not for a boutique/exotic used car company in California or Texas or Florida etc, or AutoNation dealerships big West/East coast dealerships etc having these GT cars sit on the lot at an ADM, but for the enthusiasts to enjoy and drive.
Sorry to all who are impacted by this, did not enjoy reading this
09-13-2018, 07:24 AM
#350
Rennlist Member
Nice write-up, Pelligrino.
09-13-2018, 07:46 AM
#351
Rennlist Member
Do any other brands have the practice of the retailer selling over MSRP? I realize there aren't any laws preventing it and still games played by selling new car purchases at MSRP back to the dealer. But does anyone else do it as blatantly and rampantly as the Porsche GT ADM game; where the dealer is actually charging over MSRP on new merchandise? I'm all for free market but it does seem like Porsche is risking some longer-term brand damage in the US with how their GT product is being distributed? I am fortunate enough to by most of my stuff at MSRP. So I benefit from the "small-depreciation" effect of ADM's being added on top. But it does seem like it's tarnishing the brand a little. Idk?
How does Rolex enforce no over-MSRP new sales? I'm sure most truly loyal and BIG long-term Porsche clients are taken care of and able to buy at list. But this current ADM environment just breeds an "auction to highest bidder" client base vs a brand loyalty model. Maybe the current adm game is worth more in the near-term than any longer-term brand loyalty creates? Maybe the dealers and Porsche are smart because the whole model and product is going to be a dinosaur (along with its client base) in a few years?
How does Rolex enforce no over-MSRP new sales? I'm sure most truly loyal and BIG long-term Porsche clients are taken care of and able to buy at list. But this current ADM environment just breeds an "auction to highest bidder" client base vs a brand loyalty model. Maybe the current adm game is worth more in the near-term than any longer-term brand loyalty creates? Maybe the dealers and Porsche are smart because the whole model and product is going to be a dinosaur (along with its client base) in a few years?
09-13-2018, 07:48 AM
#352
‘if all should be sold at MSRP that would imply person to person sales shouldn’t go above MSRP. Above MSRP only occurs because Porsche buyers support the premium ....wrong or right it’s not a dealer issue. This board is littered with people that what to pay over to have the new toy now, and it’s ok just not what I would do. I support my dealer, and if they have a car for me it’s great and if they don’t its still great. MSRP is what it is suggested ......most cars sell below that I don’t see people saying I want to pay more.
09-13-2018, 07:56 AM
#353
No one wants to pay more. We come to this conclusion because of basic economics. Porsche. Only makes so many. The cars are special to all of us. We have allot of passion for the brand. We’re sports car enthusiast. Life’s short. We have to make the tuff decision; if I really want this car,the only way I’m going to get one is sadly pay a premium for it.
09-13-2018, 07:59 AM
#354
Maybe I am mis-reading your note, but how is Champion a victim here? They knew about Shiraaz activities (similar to this) via his dealings with the RAMPAGE 911r (see document posted prior.) They didn't fire him and they didn't supervise him now we are in this situation. Difficult for Champion to say, "We had no idea what he was doing?"
Jim Hahn all tennis and no supervision. #JimmyTennis
Jim Hahn all tennis and no supervision. #JimmyTennis
09-13-2018, 08:03 AM
#355
09-13-2018, 08:06 AM
#356
Just catching up to all of this and I feel terrible for the clients/RLers etc who are involved with this mess... I'm upset and feel for you guys reading this as someone who had to pay an ADM to an out of state dealership for my GT3 as well
As a "retired" attorney I'd highly encourage any and all of you to seek out legal advice immediately, whether it be the guy mentioned 10x here on this thread or not. There are numerous things standing out to me like business across state lines (now its a fed case), the amount of $ in question, similar harm/damage to similarly situated plaintiffs, respondeat superior & laws of agency, etc to where a strong case should/could be made for fraud/negligence etc. I don't think Champion has to scramble to find $2.5M+ if/when the time comes, their assets alone are worth much more than that. I'd even look into some sort of injunctive relief to freeze Champion's bank accounts/assets in an extreme measure if your lawyer deems it prudent since Champion has been AWOL, and hell I'd see if punitive damages are possible since it seems like this isn't the first time Champion might have found themselves in this situation. The more that can band together the better IMO to put a strong showing that this isn't just one guy who lost $100k in the eyes of a judge, but a group of angry and hurt people who are collectively facing $2M+ loss by a dealership that has run into these types of issues before apparently.
The fact that Champion has been quiet about this is very upsetting, whether or not it was a sole rogue actor. Assume that it was, and the business should still do right to the clients and fully make them whole and more. What is also upsetting is the fact that this should also fall on the lap of PCNA even though it won't. PCNA better be really thinking hard about how they allocate GT cars and to whom because their current approach IMO led to this mess. Let the dealers do as they please in the US, charge whatever price they want, and boom all the dealers got so shortsightedly greedy. Waiting lists went to the wayside, different SAs at the same dealership will have different answers on GT process/politics/games/ADM amounts etc. I mean someone else said in a different thread that Porsche of Bellevue (AutoNation dealership in WA btw) is asking for $50k over already for 992.1 GT3. A Porsche of San Diego SA told me last week that "they have sold all GT3 positions for the next 2 years for 30K over" whatever that means. Porsche South Bay told me I can queue up for 992.1 GT3 and be one of the first on the list "to pay market price" (GTFOH). What in the hell?
This has to be a wake up call, Porsche is hurting the customers that they should focus on keeping, the enthusiasts... Between the typical Pcar dealer arrogance/terrible experience in both sales and service, the ADMs/games/politics/"build a relationship that mutually benefits us where we can share profit"/and now this surfacing with people losing a lot of hard earned money to try and obtain a car they really wanted, I've never been more turned off to the Porsche brand even as a die hard 911 guy. A shame too because their cars are killer. Think about how many who would have loved to get the call for that MSRP allocation and didn't because we have brokers/flippers buying allocations or dealers speccing the car themselves to flip or collaborating with a VIP to spec, "turn in" or "trade", and then flip. So people instead try to secure any GT allocation they can find (because they are now even more scarce and hard to get) to build the car the way they want (who wouldn't want that), and we have this happening now. I look at it as PCNA's hands are dirty, same with Champion even if it was one guy. This is what happens when there is a systemic problem of letting it be the wild Wild West with no process/rules/clarity on how someone can obtain a Porsche GT car, and letting each and every US dealer do as they please. And the people who got hurt the most are the people who would buy/spec/enjoy the car for its intended purpose. Not for a boutique/exotic used car company in California or Texas or Florida etc, or AutoNation dealerships big West/East coast dealerships etc having these GT cars sit on the lot at an ADM, but for the enthusiasts to enjoy and drive.
Sorry to all who are impacted by this, did not enjoy reading this
As a "retired" attorney I'd highly encourage any and all of you to seek out legal advice immediately, whether it be the guy mentioned 10x here on this thread or not. There are numerous things standing out to me like business across state lines (now its a fed case), the amount of $ in question, similar harm/damage to similarly situated plaintiffs, respondeat superior & laws of agency, etc to where a strong case should/could be made for fraud/negligence etc. I don't think Champion has to scramble to find $2.5M+ if/when the time comes, their assets alone are worth much more than that. I'd even look into some sort of injunctive relief to freeze Champion's bank accounts/assets in an extreme measure if your lawyer deems it prudent since Champion has been AWOL, and hell I'd see if punitive damages are possible since it seems like this isn't the first time Champion might have found themselves in this situation. The more that can band together the better IMO to put a strong showing that this isn't just one guy who lost $100k in the eyes of a judge, but a group of angry and hurt people who are collectively facing $2M+ loss by a dealership that has run into these types of issues before apparently.
The fact that Champion has been quiet about this is very upsetting, whether or not it was a sole rogue actor. Assume that it was, and the business should still do right to the clients and fully make them whole and more. What is also upsetting is the fact that this should also fall on the lap of PCNA even though it won't. PCNA better be really thinking hard about how they allocate GT cars and to whom because their current approach IMO led to this mess. Let the dealers do as they please in the US, charge whatever price they want, and boom all the dealers got so shortsightedly greedy. Waiting lists went to the wayside, different SAs at the same dealership will have different answers on GT process/politics/games/ADM amounts etc. I mean someone else said in a different thread that Porsche of Bellevue (AutoNation dealership in WA btw) is asking for $50k over already for 992.1 GT3. A Porsche of San Diego SA told me last week that "they have sold all GT3 positions for the next 2 years for 30K over" whatever that means. Porsche South Bay told me I can queue up for 992.1 GT3 and be one of the first on the list "to pay market price" (GTFOH). What in the hell?
This has to be a wake up call, Porsche is hurting the customers that they should focus on keeping, the enthusiasts... Between the typical Pcar dealer arrogance/terrible experience in both sales and service, the ADMs/games/politics/"build a relationship that mutually benefits us where we can share profit"/and now this surfacing with people losing a lot of hard earned money to try and obtain a car they really wanted, I've never been more turned off to the Porsche brand even as a die hard 911 guy. A shame too because their cars are killer. Think about how many who would have loved to get the call for that MSRP allocation and didn't because we have brokers/flippers buying allocations or dealers speccing the car themselves to flip or collaborating with a VIP to spec, "turn in" or "trade", and then flip. So people instead try to secure any GT allocation they can find (because they are now even more scarce and hard to get) to build the car the way they want (who wouldn't want that), and we have this happening now. I look at it as PCNA's hands are dirty, same with Champion even if it was one guy. This is what happens when there is a systemic problem of letting it be the wild Wild West with no process/rules/clarity on how someone can obtain a Porsche GT car, and letting each and every US dealer do as they please. And the people who got hurt the most are the people who would buy/spec/enjoy the car for its intended purpose. Not for a boutique/exotic used car company in California or Texas or Florida etc, or AutoNation dealerships big West/East coast dealerships etc having these GT cars sit on the lot at an ADM, but for the enthusiasts to enjoy and drive.
Sorry to all who are impacted by this, did not enjoy reading this
09-13-2018, 08:12 AM
#357
Rennlist Member
Originally Posted by Jrtaylor9
Do any other brands have the practice of the retailer selling over MSRP?
09-13-2018, 08:18 AM
#358
Fellas sorry that this happen.
Ford charges over for there mustangs that are special also.
Nissan Gtr were 30 k over when they came out.
Even some Chevy dealers charge over for special cars.
All dealerships do it....not just Porsche.
Ford charges over for there mustangs that are special also.
Nissan Gtr were 30 k over when they came out.
Even some Chevy dealers charge over for special cars.
All dealerships do it....not just Porsche.
09-13-2018, 08:18 AM
#359
Rennlist Member
My guess is that there is more to this than just a shady sales guy fleecing more than 20 people out of their deposits. There is no way IMO, that management was not aware of what was going on. Were there is smoke, there is fire.
As others have mentioned, contacting an attorney to represent YOUR best interests is of paramount importance. Champion's attorneys care little about making you whole - don't make the mistake of assuming by contacting them, you are protected.
Good luck to everyone impacted by this scam.
As others have mentioned, contacting an attorney to represent YOUR best interests is of paramount importance. Champion's attorneys care little about making you whole - don't make the mistake of assuming by contacting them, you are protected.
Good luck to everyone impacted by this scam.
09-13-2018, 08:38 AM
#360
Just catching up to all of this and I feel terrible for the clients/RLers etc who are involved with this mess... I'm upset and feel for you guys reading this as someone who had to pay an ADM to an out of state dealership for my GT3 as well
******I'd see if punitive damages are possible since it seems like this isn't the first time Champion might have found themselves in this situation. The more that can band together the better IMO to put a strong showing that this isn't just one guy who lost $100k in the eyes of a judge, but a group of angry and hurt people who are collectively facing $2M+ loss by a dealership that has run into these types of issues before apparently.********
******I'd see if punitive damages are possible since it seems like this isn't the first time Champion might have found themselves in this situation. The more that can band together the better IMO to put a strong showing that this isn't just one guy who lost $100k in the eyes of a judge, but a group of angry and hurt people who are collectively facing $2M+ loss by a dealership that has run into these types of issues before apparently.********
