GT2RS vs GT3 Cup Car
08-30-2018, 10:35 PM
#377
Rennlist Member
08-30-2018, 10:40 PM
#379
08-31-2018, 12:46 PM
#380
...I'd love to see a series for the GT3 RS and/or GT2 RS (different classes?) where the cars are required to be driven to the track and run with no mods other than safety, setup, tires, and (maybe) brakes. A sort of realization of the stillborn US 964 Cup series, but with 500 or 700 hp. While I doubt PCNA/PMNA could touch it from a safety standpoint, I suspect the cars would be safer than many older club-racing platforms (some of which are getting awfully pricey) and the series might actually be interesting...
Amen. Prior to 964 Cup, there was the street-legal 944 Rothmans Challenge. And post-964 Cup, the 348/355 Challenge with other marque.
Back to topic, apples to oranges comparison as many have alluded. Nonetheless, fun to still compare and discuss.
08-31-2018, 12:58 PM
#381
Rennlist Member
- One is engineered to run a license plate.
- One is not.
I enjoy the comparisons as much as the next person—when well written or well filmed, they can be fun and entertaining. But you can't get past the two points above, which dictate much else.
Fwiw, "wanna911" is right on several points. I'd love to see a series for the GT3 RS and/or GT2 RS (different classes?) where the cars are required to be driven to the track and run with no mods other than safety, setup, tires, and (maybe) brakes. A sort of realization of the stillborn US 964 Cup series, but with 500 or 700 hp. While I doubt PCNA/PMNA could touch it from a safety standpoint, I suspect the cars would be safer than many older club-racing platforms (some of which are getting awfully pricey) and the series might actually be interesting...
08-31-2018, 01:04 PM
#382
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I think the tire issue is being over exaggerated for 2 reasons.
1) tires are the most common track day mod there is (maybe next to pads and fluid) Like it or not. Especially on upper tier cars that come on these large size, low production r compound level tires. These tires cost a lot and last almost no time before falling off or flat out cording. It's just unrealistic to run unless you have a race car budget being applied to DE. One or two hero laps, another day or two of much slower laps, cord, repeat. Who wants that to be their track day experience?
2) speed, these tires are fast and provide race tire levels of grip if even for short periods. The cars are optimized for much higher levels of grip than years past. The delta is not really all that big any more. You can bet Michelin benchmarked the fastest street tires around. Those seem to be the kumho v720 acr. Those tires are ridiculous giving almost identical grip and lap times as good pirelli DH slick scrubs (I. E. Only a couple of seconds off the pace of new ones). Point being, unlikely the car needs much adjusting at all. Obviously you won't maximize it without the tunability, but you can sure as heck improve lap times, especially over the life of the tire. And spend less time switching tires or in the pits conserving.
At the very least, when you see a guy like Peter, who's been hardcore street tire switch to Hoosiers, you know it's pretty much hopeless for the street tire if you do more than the once a blue moon track day. No one's gonna put all seasons on the car. I still think true slicks will void warranty? Hoosiers are barely better than the OEM in terms of outright lap pace and grip.
So much ado about nothing to add a better tire.
1) tires are the most common track day mod there is (maybe next to pads and fluid) Like it or not. Especially on upper tier cars that come on these large size, low production r compound level tires. These tires cost a lot and last almost no time before falling off or flat out cording. It's just unrealistic to run unless you have a race car budget being applied to DE. One or two hero laps, another day or two of much slower laps, cord, repeat. Who wants that to be their track day experience?
2) speed, these tires are fast and provide race tire levels of grip if even for short periods. The cars are optimized for much higher levels of grip than years past. The delta is not really all that big any more. You can bet Michelin benchmarked the fastest street tires around. Those seem to be the kumho v720 acr. Those tires are ridiculous giving almost identical grip and lap times as good pirelli DH slick scrubs (I. E. Only a couple of seconds off the pace of new ones). Point being, unlikely the car needs much adjusting at all. Obviously you won't maximize it without the tunability, but you can sure as heck improve lap times, especially over the life of the tire. And spend less time switching tires or in the pits conserving.
At the very least, when you see a guy like Peter, who's been hardcore street tire switch to Hoosiers, you know it's pretty much hopeless for the street tire if you do more than the once a blue moon track day. No one's gonna put all seasons on the car. I still think true slicks will void warranty? Hoosiers are barely better than the OEM in terms of outright lap pace and grip.
So much ado about nothing to add a better tire.
- If they're pushed hard, but not to their absolute limit, they can last about 10 track days. This of course depends on the track surface also. Yes, I can destroy them sooner than that if I really want to, but the gain in lap time isn't worth the greatly increased net tire cost per day.
- At their very best, the grip is significantly below Hoosiers (which is probably similar to Cup 2R), and more so below slicks. Depending on ambient and especially track surface temps, their grip is only at their best for a few laps in each session, then the grip falls of significantly due to heat.
08-31-2018, 02:36 PM
#383
Rennlist Member
It’s almost certain Porsche is about to make a Cup Car with GT2RS drivetrain. That’s what’s been running round Monza etc.
Designed to be accessible to modem drivers than the Cup (eg PDK) , but still with Cup car dynamics and in excess of 700bhp.
Track car, so I assume slicks.
It wins!
Designed to be accessible to modem drivers than the Cup (eg PDK) , but still with Cup car dynamics and in excess of 700bhp.
Track car, so I assume slicks.
It wins!
I believe the decision is already made about mandatory driving school in order to obtain one unless one already holds a race license.
I believe SRO is in talks to do a series with that car like they did with the GT4 ClubSport, but as it stands right now, it is not built to any race spec.
08-31-2018, 05:07 PM
#384
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^ Because 485hp in 2,700lb Cup isn't enough to get an amateur in serious trouble. Not that I fault Porsche for putting it out there - nothing exceeds like excess - but I suspect the carnage factor will be high, driving school or no. Can't wait to see the final product.
09-01-2018, 08:39 AM
#385
Rennlist Member
It is coming. It is designed to run slicks. Should be called GT2 ClubSport, along the lines of the GT4 ClubSport. Has better aero than a Cup car.
I believe the decision is already made about mandatory driving school in order to obtain one unless one already holds a race license.
I believe SRO is in talks to do a series with that car like they did with the GT4 ClubSport, but as it stands right now, it is not built to any race spec.
I believe the decision is already made about mandatory driving school in order to obtain one unless one already holds a race license.
I believe SRO is in talks to do a series with that car like they did with the GT4 ClubSport, but as it stands right now, it is not built to any race spec.
09-01-2018, 08:49 AM
#386
Given the time, how bad the stock aligment is for track, how fast the cup r tires are, and the good range of adjustment of the gt2 rs, the car is more than able to get into 12-13 with cup r tires and a proper alignment and with the aero maxed out.
Good enough statement for me. If there is a big straight no cup will have even a fighting chance as the driver on the gt2rs will dictate the lines and can just close them all. Cup might close space on high speed brakes, but idk if the distance put between the 2 will make this gain enough to even equalize.
There will be a couple of very fun battles between the 2. Excited to see them
Good enough statement for me. If there is a big straight no cup will have even a fighting chance as the driver on the gt2rs will dictate the lines and can just close them all. Cup might close space on high speed brakes, but idk if the distance put between the 2 will make this gain enough to even equalize.
There will be a couple of very fun battles between the 2. Excited to see them
09-01-2018, 09:04 AM
#387
I don’t believe you will find time in alignment.
Cup R yes, but it’s not the alignment that’s the limiting factor, it’s the stock spring rates, shocks/dampers and also sway bars (which are adjustable at least) etc
Cup R yes, but it’s not the alignment that’s the limiting factor, it’s the stock spring rates, shocks/dampers and also sway bars (which are adjustable at least) etc
09-01-2018, 09:28 AM
#389
Nordschleife Master
Comparison here is a street car vs a race car.
A race car is designed from the grounds up to use racing slicks.
A street car is designed from the grounds up to use street tires.
I don't get it why people wanted to use equal tires for both cars, the cars are not designed to run on the other choices!
A GT2RS may have more HP, but it always weights more, and has less grip for corners. It's advantage only shows up at terminal velocity on the straights, but with a higher speed, it means it needed to brake sooner and longer because it can only corner at a slower speed than the Cup car.
A Cup car has less HP so it will go slower on the straights, but it can brake a lot latter with better brakes and high corner entry speed, that advantage is huge. It also exit corner at a higher rate of speed to which means a GT2RS is chasing basically the whole straight just to catch up, then it loses ground again at the next braking zone.
A track alignment for the GT2RS is sort fo borderline cheating. But not really as the range of adjustment is already there.
But the talk of say lightening up the car, in addition to alignment and slicks or or semi-slicks would means a stacked deck.
By the same token, if a street car can be modified to that extend, then why not having a modified Cup car also? Say the Manthey Racing Cup MR? That thing is quite a bit faster than a stock cup car. Or how about using a GT3R instead? The race car's advantage remains if on equal terms.
A race car is designed from the grounds up to use racing slicks.
A street car is designed from the grounds up to use street tires.
I don't get it why people wanted to use equal tires for both cars, the cars are not designed to run on the other choices!
A GT2RS may have more HP, but it always weights more, and has less grip for corners. It's advantage only shows up at terminal velocity on the straights, but with a higher speed, it means it needed to brake sooner and longer because it can only corner at a slower speed than the Cup car.
A Cup car has less HP so it will go slower on the straights, but it can brake a lot latter with better brakes and high corner entry speed, that advantage is huge. It also exit corner at a higher rate of speed to which means a GT2RS is chasing basically the whole straight just to catch up, then it loses ground again at the next braking zone.
A track alignment for the GT2RS is sort fo borderline cheating. But not really as the range of adjustment is already there.
But the talk of say lightening up the car, in addition to alignment and slicks or or semi-slicks would means a stacked deck.
By the same token, if a street car can be modified to that extend, then why not having a modified Cup car also? Say the Manthey Racing Cup MR? That thing is quite a bit faster than a stock cup car. Or how about using a GT3R instead? The race car's advantage remains if on equal terms.
In light of the fact the .2 3RS was only 9 seconds off the 2RS at the Ring I’m thinking the .2 3RS is faster on shorter tighter circuits like Laguna etc or within a second or so.
Even with its NA motor the .2 3RS is throwing down seriously fast times at various tracks including faster times or equivalent times to/than the 918, Perfomante, 720s, 675LT, 488, ZR1. That to me is actually more impressive than doing it with 700hp. TT 700hp makes it easy. Everyone gets blinded by the 700hp.
The 3RS is doing more with less. That’s more impressive to me.
Last edited by Waxer; 09-01-2018 at 09:54 AM.
09-01-2018, 09:34 AM
#390
P.S. Why not try the dsc module? The dampers at least can be solved. And what's wrong with the spring rates? They are plenty hard but enough to give decent compliance.
Last edited by RennOracle; 09-01-2018 at 10:34 AM.