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‘18 GT3 vs ‘16 GT3RS

 
Old 06-27-2018, 07:39 PM
  #31  
race7117
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I have had all the 991 versions and a new RS on the way, The new engine is much better, much better than the .1 even the RS . It is more efficient, and has a wonderful character that really pulls in every gear at a broader range of rpms. The RS is much better in the corners and at technical tracks will truly outshine the .2GT3. Less technical tracks with longer top speed sections will be less so, but the aero gives a lot more confidence to the driver and the front end is much more planted especially offcamber. The .2 GT3 is much easier to live with, smaller width less wing and much more of a conventional car around town, much easier to live with. I do think the ride of the .1 GT3RS is compliant for road use but the GT3 just h behaves more like a road car and not a Cup car with a license plate.
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Old 06-27-2018, 09:28 PM
  #32  
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Originally Posted by brake dust View Post


Bogus? The genesis of the Porsche GT cars was based on Porsche Motorsport developed cars!
Please don’t misunderstand my comment. I am well aware of the genesis of the GT model and the Motorsport heritage. My ‘bogus’ comment was specifically aimed at the idea that somehow the .2 GT3 engine was ‘race bred’ and the .1 RS engine was somehow not adequate.
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Old 06-27-2018, 10:42 PM
  #33  
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Originally Posted by race7117 View Post
I have had all the 991 versions and a new RS on the way, The new engine is much better, much better than the .1 even the RS . It is more efficient, and has a wonderful character that really pulls in every gear at a broader range of rpms. The RS is much better in the corners and at technical tracks will truly outshine the .2GT3. Less technical tracks with longer top speed sections will be less so, but the aero gives a lot more confidence to the driver and the front end is much more planted especially offcamber. The .2 GT3 is much easier to live with, smaller width less wing and much more of a conventional car around town, much easier to live with. I do think the ride of the .1 GT3RS is compliant for road use but the GT3 just h behaves more like a road car and not a Cup car with a license plate.
Final drive ratios are different; 4.13 for the RS, 3.97 for .2 GT3. I hear the RS behaves much more aggressively in a straight line on the smaller 19" wheels/shorter tires that some run on the track. Have you driven an RS on 19's and does it pull like your .2 if you have?

Perhaps the extra 200 rpm and gear ratios have something to do with the way the new car feels?
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Old 06-27-2018, 10:51 PM
  #34  
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Originally Posted by golfnutintib View Post
991.1 rs outperforms a .2 gt3 on track hands down - much more mechanical grip and better aero
I would have to disagree. I am lapping faster in my .2GT3 than the .1GT3RS by about a second on my home track. Running 19" with 265/325 I was eating .1GT3RS at the other track event and definitely stronger motor with more torque. more corner speed and pulled down the straights. Doesn't have the pizzaz of RS but .2GT3 eats .1GT3RS with same contact patch in my experience.
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Old 06-27-2018, 11:06 PM
  #35  
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Originally Posted by Smoking Rotors View Post
Final drive ratios are different; 4.13 for the RS, 3.97 for .2 GT3. I hear the RS behaves much more aggressively in a straight line on the smaller 19" wheels/shorter tires that some run on the track. Have you driven an RS on 19's and does it pull like your .2 if you have?

Perhaps the extra 200 rpm and gear ratios have something to do with the way the new car feels?
I haven't driven on 19's so I can't really say. The the ratios are different, you are right and it may have a little to do with it but thias new engine has a lot of major improvements over the .1. I don't necessarily think the .2 pulls harder than the .1RS it just feels more well sorted, more even. The RS felt like it was working harder, and really only up to 8100 rpm, with not much power after. The .2 continues to power up to 8250rpms and I am using less fuel and less oil than in the older engine. The power curve is flatter in the .2 vs the .1RS and the engine itself has less internal friction, better lubrication and oil distribution, all these things contribute to a more even power band and less work for the engine that you really can feel on the track. I miss the aero like crazy and the overall stance of the RS is just much better for the track so I can't get the .2RS soon enough
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Old 06-28-2018, 12:00 AM
  #36  
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Comparing my GT3.1 to my GT3.2, IMHO the additional Torque of the .2 can easily be felt at the lower to mid RPM's but at the higher RPM's
the Torque of both engines feel very similar if not identical. Laptimes displayed on <fastestlaps.com> are definitely lower on the GT3.2.
I found my GT3RS.1 very acceptable as both a Road Car and Track Car. With the new GT2RS chassis, metal suspension fittings replacing
rubber, far stiffer springs, Aero tweaks and modifications carried over to the new GT3RS, it will undoubtedly be a faster Track car,
but inevitably, a less comfortable Road Car. Note Nurburgring Laptimes:

Nurburgring GT3RS.2 6:56.40, vs GT3RS.1 7:20.00, vs GT3.2 7:12.70, vs GT3.1 7:25.
Note the Laptime of the new 991.2 Carrera GTS, at 7:23.77, is now faster than the GT3.1.
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Old 06-28-2018, 12:59 AM
  #37  
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Originally Posted by race7117 View Post
I haven't driven on 19's so I can't really say. The the ratios are different, you are right and it may have a little to do with it but thias new engine has a lot of major improvements over the .1. I don't necessarily think the .2 pulls harder than the .1RS it just feels more well sorted, more even. The RS felt like it was working harder, and really only up to 8100 rpm, with not much power after. The .2 continues to power up to 8250rpms and I am using less fuel and less oil than in the older engine. The power curve is flatter in the .2 vs the .1RS and the engine itself has less internal friction, better lubrication and oil distribution, all these things contribute to a more even power band and less work for the engine that you really can feel on the track. I miss the aero like crazy and the overall stance of the RS is just much better for the track so I can't get the .2RS soon enough
So there's the attached dyno chart from another post. I took a screen shot a couple of months ago, but it's in here on Rennlist somewhere.

Except for the redlines, the engines look very close Years ago I tested the same car (not a Porsche) in different gears on a dyno and the chart overlays had a similar feel to this one. The power curves varied only because of the gear selection and maybe the 2 GT3's gearing accounts for how they are perceived.

The RS has more variance - perhaps why the .2 feels more sorted (and due to the upgrades you mention).It would make sense that a 2 year shakedown would produce the more even and sorted feeling you get.
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Old 06-28-2018, 08:55 AM
  #38  
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Thanks for posting. Not a big surprise that the two 500 HP Engines have similar Torque / HP Curves.
My comparisons were of the 476 HP GT3-1 vs the 500 HP GT3-2 for anyone considering trading up.
Anyone have those Charts?
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Old 06-28-2018, 01:46 PM
  #39  
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[QUOTE=Dr.Bill;15106397]I don't think so. It's still got a long way to go. Most are still selling at or slightly below MSRP. Depreciation hasn't even started yet. Wait until the .2 RS starts landing. . .

I actually think the .1RS will hover at or around MSRP even with the .2 RS landing soon (IMO it's plateaued). Factor in what the .2 RS will be selling for on the open market once they land, and the .1 RS will seem like a steal at MSRP or slightly below. One has to figure the ADM that are being tacked on top of the MSRP for the .2 RS which will then be reflected on the market if one decides to sell their car. I'm still surprised that the 997 RS still sells for above MSRP for an 8 year old car.
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Old 06-28-2018, 02:35 PM
  #40  
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[QUOTE=jp884;15109067]
Originally Posted by Dr.Bill View Post
I don't think so. It's still got a long way to go. Most are still selling at or slightly below MSRP. Depreciation hasn't even started yet. Wait until the .2 RS starts landing. . .

I actually think the .1RS will hover at or around MSRP even with the .2 RS landing soon (IMO it's plateaued). Factor in what the .2 RS will be selling for on the open market once they land, and the .1 RS will seem like a steal at MSRP or slightly below. One has to figure the ADM that are being tacked on top of the MSRP for the .2 RS which will then be reflected on the market if one decides to sell their car. I'm still surprised that the 997 RS still sells for above MSRP for an 8 year old car.
You bring up a very interesting benchmark with the 997 RS.

2700ish cars over 5 years for 997 RS including .1 and .2 and 4.0 - about 540 per year
5600 cars over 6 years for 2016 RS .1 (if you count hiatus between 2011 and 2013 through 2017) 934 per year
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Porsche_911_GT3 (scroll down for counts)

One could argue either way; the 997's are more exclusive, numbers are less than 1/2, so they'd be more likely to hold value because of exclusivity than 991. But, with the PDK, the 991 is more accessible to more people so the demographic for demand could be wider as more people are able to drive that car. However, someone else might think that the group of potential buyers is smaller because collectors who want manuals won't be interested in the 997.

In April, CarGurus showed about 85 cars with all but one over $200K. Today there are about 100 cars, 9 under $200K, which is below MSRP. The market will sort it out.
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Old 06-28-2018, 02:45 PM
  #41  
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[QUOTE=Smoking Rotors;15109161]
Originally Posted by jp884 View Post

You bring up a very interesting benchmark with the 997 RS.

2700ish cars over 5 years for 997 RS including .1 and .2 and 4.0 - about 540 per year
5600 cars over 6 years for 2016 RS .1 (if you count hiatus between 2011 and 2013 through 2017) 934 per year
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Porsche_911_GT3 (scroll down for counts)

One could argue either way; the 997's are more exclusive, numbers are less than 1/2, so they'd be more likely to hold value because of exclusivity than 991. But, with the PDK, the 991 is more accessible to more people so the demographic for demand could be wider as more people are able to drive that car. However, someone else might think that the group of potential buyers is smaller because collectors who want manuals won't be interested in the 997.

In April, CarGurus showed about 85 cars with all but one over $200K. Today there are about 100 cars, 9 under $200K, which is below MSRP. The market will sort it out.

Great points, I'm curious to know that if those cars under $200K had a relatively cheaper build? Thus, putting them at the lower price point or were they relatively high mileage or hard miles?
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Old 06-28-2018, 03:03 PM
  #42  
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Except those numbers are way off!
North American production numbers:

997.1 GT3 - 963
997.1 GT3RS - 453
997.2 GT3 - 715
997.2 GT3RS - 612
997 GT3RS 4.0 - 158
991.1 GT3 - 2191
991.1 GT3RS - 1529
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Old 06-28-2018, 03:04 PM
  #43  
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[QUOTE=jp884;15109185]
Originally Posted by Smoking Rotors View Post


Great points, I'm curious to know that if those cars under $200K had a relatively cheaper build? Thus, putting them at the lower price point or were they relatively high mileage or hard miles?
Looks like 3 orange, 3 wrapped, higher mileage 4500 to 22000 miles, most seem to have good builds. Each used one will have it's own story or lack there of. These may be lacking and priced accordingly. .2 is a sellers market, .1 is a buyers market. pretty bright lines right now.
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