My potentially unpopular thoughts on the GT3 as track car
04-19-2018, 08:35 AM
#76
Rennlist Member
At the risk of arguing semantics, there's a spectrum from Toyota Camry's at one end and a full blown race car at the other. Everywhere along that line there are compromises. I get it.
However for me, a track car, or a 'track-focused car' is something that is designed for the track first. In the UK there is the term 'track day car' which are things like Radicals, Westfields, 3-Elevens, Caterhams etc. Even among these there are compromises, for instance a Radical is designed to give you the feel and performance of a single-seater open-wheel race car while giving the huge safety benefits of not being a single-seater or open-wheeler (IMHO it comes shockingly close - amazing machines). All of these cars are road legal (yes not Radicals in the US), so they make all kinds of compromises there obviously. These aren't race cars - they don't have numbers on the sides. They're designed for enthusiasts to give you the experience of a race car in a much safer, cheaper and more practical package. Some people of course race them, but people also race Dodge Neons and Bugatti Veyrons.
Of course if you bought one of those cars you would be making GIGANTIC compromises every time you drove on the road as opposed to the track (bugs in the face etc). Then of course there are things like the Evora - disclaimer I haven't driven one yet, but assuming it's spiritually similar to Elise which I have a lot of seat time in - where they aren't as hardcore as a 3-Eleven but it's still a track car first while being almost decent on the road.
The GT3 of course, is an exceptional road car, and when compared to other road cars its very good, even exceptional on the track - so it achieves a great compromises there. However, as others here have said its absolutely a road car first. I was a little deflated when I tracked the GT3 because (my own fault for reading too many over-excited reviews and RL posts) I had believed that they had covered this spectrum further than what they had when in reality of course, there is no unicorn dust, especially when it comes to weight.
There's also the other elephant in the room that sports cars in general have become so powerful and capable that they can often be faster at many tracks than many focused track or race cars (depending on the series). I won't open that can of worms.
However for me, a track car, or a 'track-focused car' is something that is designed for the track first. In the UK there is the term 'track day car' which are things like Radicals, Westfields, 3-Elevens, Caterhams etc. Even among these there are compromises, for instance a Radical is designed to give you the feel and performance of a single-seater open-wheel race car while giving the huge safety benefits of not being a single-seater or open-wheeler (IMHO it comes shockingly close - amazing machines). All of these cars are road legal (yes not Radicals in the US), so they make all kinds of compromises there obviously. These aren't race cars - they don't have numbers on the sides. They're designed for enthusiasts to give you the experience of a race car in a much safer, cheaper and more practical package. Some people of course race them, but people also race Dodge Neons and Bugatti Veyrons.
Of course if you bought one of those cars you would be making GIGANTIC compromises every time you drove on the road as opposed to the track (bugs in the face etc). Then of course there are things like the Evora - disclaimer I haven't driven one yet, but assuming it's spiritually similar to Elise which I have a lot of seat time in - where they aren't as hardcore as a 3-Eleven but it's still a track car first while being almost decent on the road.
The GT3 of course, is an exceptional road car, and when compared to other road cars its very good, even exceptional on the track - so it achieves a great compromises there. However, as others here have said its absolutely a road car first. I was a little deflated when I tracked the GT3 because (my own fault for reading too many over-excited reviews and RL posts) I had believed that they had covered this spectrum further than what they had when in reality of course, there is no unicorn dust, especially when it comes to weight.
There's also the other elephant in the room that sports cars in general have become so powerful and capable that they can often be faster at many tracks than many focused track or race cars (depending on the series). I won't open that can of worms.
04-19-2018, 09:00 AM
#77
The Elise isn't as good a track car as a Boxster??
I loved my Boxster and have never driven an Elise but I just expect that to be wrong. If it's not... well... I guess my Boxster was better than I thought.
I loved my Boxster and have never driven an Elise but I just expect that to be wrong. If it's not... well... I guess my Boxster was better than I thought.
04-19-2018, 09:13 AM
#78
Rennlist Member
Lol. Similar to the Elise, there are several iterations of the Boxster. If you include the Cayman to that lineup, there is a superior Boxster/Cayman iteration at each level.
04-19-2018, 10:06 AM
#79
Racer
Thread Starter
FWIW the Elise is much (like 30%!?) lighter and stiffer than the 718 S - I have tracked both. I think they are great cars, but they sit at a different parts of that spectrum. One was designed for track days, the other is a sports car that can do track days.
04-19-2018, 11:58 AM
#80
Platinum Dealership
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Moral of the story:
1) consider the source of all car reviews/ reviewers. VERY few of them have race history or have anything but a brown mouth to gobble up what factories PR teams tell them to write.
2) if you have no racing experience, or no experience with a downforce car, your relative knowledge is...relative.
3) So, a lot of people just use buzzwords because they read it - or actually have that particular car as a high water mark.
4) everything other than LMP/F#/ GTE/GTLM cars are compromised a ton. Even GTD cars have weight ballast, restrictions etc
5) tracking is fun for funs sake. For a lot of guys, that's enough AND it's much more fun when everyone has a similar speed / skill set car to play with. Being the guy in the ACR extreme when everyone else has miatas is not that fun.
6) each gen GT car gets simultaneously fatter and more powerful and more civilized.
7) track days are not racing, AT BEST they're a weird form of esoteric self actualization and tourism.
8) porsche makes VERY reliable cars for this purpose, although the McLarens or Performante or ACRX are all faster...we have most faith in Porsche to deliver us the TRAKCAR Level Of Miles and Use.
1) consider the source of all car reviews/ reviewers. VERY few of them have race history or have anything but a brown mouth to gobble up what factories PR teams tell them to write.
2) if you have no racing experience, or no experience with a downforce car, your relative knowledge is...relative.
3) So, a lot of people just use buzzwords because they read it - or actually have that particular car as a high water mark.
4) everything other than LMP/F#/ GTE/GTLM cars are compromised a ton. Even GTD cars have weight ballast, restrictions etc
5) tracking is fun for funs sake. For a lot of guys, that's enough AND it's much more fun when everyone has a similar speed / skill set car to play with. Being the guy in the ACR extreme when everyone else has miatas is not that fun.
6) each gen GT car gets simultaneously fatter and more powerful and more civilized.
7) track days are not racing, AT BEST they're a weird form of esoteric self actualization and tourism.
8) porsche makes VERY reliable cars for this purpose, although the McLarens or Performante or ACRX are all faster...we have most faith in Porsche to deliver us the TRAKCAR Level Of Miles and Use.
04-19-2018, 12:45 PM
#81
I'm looking forward to feeling it out but fully understand how not having had it before you can't have a clue what you're talking about. That's me right now. And this is the biggest reason of all to stick with Porsche. People often ask why I didn't buy <insert other car here> for this sort of money. It's not that I don't like other cars... I just trust this one's gonna put up with me thrashing it repeatedly on a track and still be an enjoyable drive home. Over and over and over!
04-19-2018, 12:53 PM
#82
Three Wheelin'
I've been tracking and club racing for 20 years in many different cars including all out, no compromise race cars with downforce and slicks. The 991 GT3 is about the best street-track compromise of any street car I've ever driven on the track (probably 50). It's truly amazing, but, like any factory car, you need to make a few changes to get it to do what you want at the track - a good alignment and a slight modification of driving style will likely fix ~50 to 75% of your "problem."
Get as much negative camber as you can, zero toe-in (or just a nudge of toe-in) and full stiff on the rear bar.
If you are accustomed to light, setup, sticky-tired race cars, you need a radical reset of driving style. 991 on street tires is not going to carry speed in like you want, so you will constantly be frustrated and fighting the car (which is why it feels so heavy and softly sprung). So, just drive it like an old 911 - turn in really late and use trail braking to throw the ***-end around and get on the gas (really hard and as you describe) as soon as you get enough rotation. You know how high-worry, safety-oriented instructors teach novices to wait for christmas before turn-in? It should feel like that except wait for Easter. If will feel like you've completely screwed up the turn-in. Then on the next lap, turn in even later and get on the gas even earlier. You'll be amazed and about 5 seconds faster and will come back and apologize to the Stuttgart-Rennlist gods for your affront!
Get as much negative camber as you can, zero toe-in (or just a nudge of toe-in) and full stiff on the rear bar.
If you are accustomed to light, setup, sticky-tired race cars, you need a radical reset of driving style. 991 on street tires is not going to carry speed in like you want, so you will constantly be frustrated and fighting the car (which is why it feels so heavy and softly sprung). So, just drive it like an old 911 - turn in really late and use trail braking to throw the ***-end around and get on the gas (really hard and as you describe) as soon as you get enough rotation. You know how high-worry, safety-oriented instructors teach novices to wait for christmas before turn-in? It should feel like that except wait for Easter. If will feel like you've completely screwed up the turn-in. Then on the next lap, turn in even later and get on the gas even earlier. You'll be amazed and about 5 seconds faster and will come back and apologize to the Stuttgart-Rennlist gods for your affront!
04-19-2018, 03:49 PM
#83
Racer
Thread Starter
Moral of the story:
1) consider the source of all car reviews/ reviewers. VERY few of them have race history or have anything but a brown mouth to gobble up what factories PR teams tell them to write.
2) if you have no racing experience, or no experience with a downforce car, your relative knowledge is...relative.
3) So, a lot of people just use buzzwords because they read it - or actually have that particular car as a high water mark.
4) everything other than LMP/F#/ GTE/GTLM cars are compromised a ton. Even GTD cars have weight ballast, restrictions etc
5) tracking is fun for funs sake. For a lot of guys, that's enough AND it's much more fun when everyone has a similar speed / skill set car to play with. Being the guy in the ACR extreme when everyone else has miatas is not that fun.
6) each gen GT car gets simultaneously fatter and more powerful and more civilized.
7) track days are not racing, AT BEST they're a weird form of esoteric self actualization and tourism.
8) porsche makes VERY reliable cars for this purpose, although the McLarens or Performante or ACRX are all faster...we have most faith in Porsche to deliver us the TRAKCAR Level Of Miles and Use.
1) consider the source of all car reviews/ reviewers. VERY few of them have race history or have anything but a brown mouth to gobble up what factories PR teams tell them to write.
2) if you have no racing experience, or no experience with a downforce car, your relative knowledge is...relative.
3) So, a lot of people just use buzzwords because they read it - or actually have that particular car as a high water mark.
4) everything other than LMP/F#/ GTE/GTLM cars are compromised a ton. Even GTD cars have weight ballast, restrictions etc
5) tracking is fun for funs sake. For a lot of guys, that's enough AND it's much more fun when everyone has a similar speed / skill set car to play with. Being the guy in the ACR extreme when everyone else has miatas is not that fun.
6) each gen GT car gets simultaneously fatter and more powerful and more civilized.
7) track days are not racing, AT BEST they're a weird form of esoteric self actualization and tourism.
8) porsche makes VERY reliable cars for this purpose, although the McLarens or Performante or ACRX are all faster...we have most faith in Porsche to deliver us the TRAKCAR Level Of Miles and Use.
04-19-2018, 04:52 PM
#84
Racer
Thread Starter
I've been tracking and club racing for 20 years in many different cars including all out, no compromise race cars with downforce and slicks. The 991 GT3 is about the best street-track compromise of any street car I've ever driven on the track (probably 50). It's truly amazing, but, like any factory car, you need to make a few changes to get it to do what you want at the track - a good alignment and a slight modification of driving style will likely fix ~50 to 75% of your "problem."
Get as much negative camber as you can, zero toe-in (or just a nudge of toe-in) and full stiff on the rear bar.
If you are accustomed to light, setup, sticky-tired race cars, you need a radical reset of driving style. 991 on street tires is not going to carry speed in like you want, so you will constantly be frustrated and fighting the car (which is why it feels so heavy and softly sprung). So, just drive it like an old 911 - turn in really late and use trail braking to throw the ***-end around and get on the gas (really hard and as you describe) as soon as you get enough rotation. You know how high-worry, safety-oriented instructors teach novices to wait for christmas before turn-in? It should feel like that except wait for Easter. If will feel like you've completely screwed up the turn-in. Then on the next lap, turn in even later and get on the gas even earlier. You'll be amazed and about 5 seconds faster and will come back and apologize to the Stuttgart-Rennlist gods for your affront!
Get as much negative camber as you can, zero toe-in (or just a nudge of toe-in) and full stiff on the rear bar.
If you are accustomed to light, setup, sticky-tired race cars, you need a radical reset of driving style. 991 on street tires is not going to carry speed in like you want, so you will constantly be frustrated and fighting the car (which is why it feels so heavy and softly sprung). So, just drive it like an old 911 - turn in really late and use trail braking to throw the ***-end around and get on the gas (really hard and as you describe) as soon as you get enough rotation. You know how high-worry, safety-oriented instructors teach novices to wait for christmas before turn-in? It should feel like that except wait for Easter. If will feel like you've completely screwed up the turn-in. Then on the next lap, turn in even later and get on the gas even earlier. You'll be amazed and about 5 seconds faster and will come back and apologize to the Stuttgart-Rennlist gods for your affront!
04-19-2018, 10:03 PM
#86
Rennlist Member
Great thread.
i do not track but as much as I love the .2 it just looks so big in my garage. I know the GT4 is not that much smaller but just looks and feels smaller.
Drop the 4.0 Liter in the GT4, with a minimum 450 HP, and take some weight out of it and you have the perfect Street/ Track car
And yes- the .2 has slight body roll and the GT4 has none but I am sure that could be negated with some adjustments
i do not track but as much as I love the .2 it just looks so big in my garage. I know the GT4 is not that much smaller but just looks and feels smaller.
Drop the 4.0 Liter in the GT4, with a minimum 450 HP, and take some weight out of it and you have the perfect Street/ Track car
And yes- the .2 has slight body roll and the GT4 has none but I am sure that could be negated with some adjustments
You can't get any more bare than the GT4CS, race car with zero unnecessary item on the car, in race trim it still weight 2800lbs. A Cup car weights in at 2600lb for comparison.
04-19-2018, 11:54 PM
#87
Rennlist Member
I've been sitting on this for a few weeks now since picking up my 991.2 GT3 wondering whether to post my thoughts and risk the flaming
Firstly, before my negative thoughts, I do really love this car - on the road. It truly feels like a 911 of old. This is a proper sports car. The level of engagement and "connectedness" (what a stupid word but hey!) is mega and I just can't stop the massive grin on my face whenever I'm in it - except when it comes to the track.
Here are my thoughts as a track car:
Firstly, before my negative thoughts, I do really love this car - on the road. It truly feels like a 911 of old. This is a proper sports car. The level of engagement and "connectedness" (what a stupid word but hey!) is mega and I just can't stop the massive grin on my face whenever I'm in it - except when it comes to the track.
Here are my thoughts as a track car:
- THIS. IS. A. BIG. HEAVY. STREET. CAR. There is no getting away from this. You instantly feel the weight with any type of input. I've come to the conclusion that people calling this thing a 'scalpel' or a 'track weapon', or debating camber angles or downforce levels on these things are just deluding themselves. Of course everyone comes at these things from different angles and different levels of experience but I suspect a lot of people in the above camp are comparing it to BMWs and Mercs etc and have never driven a race car or even a really focused track car. Sorry I hate to offend but I think that needed to be said. The size and weight is by far the biggest issue with this car.
- The chassis/suspension is no where near as stiff as some reviewers would lead you to believe. There is a lot of lateral body roll which you constantly have to manage. Don't get me wrong, I think they've done and very good job to make something that's so drivable on the road and fairly capable on the track, but it's just not nearly as 'weaponized' as some reviewers claimed at launch. You can really feel the compromises they had to make. There's no unicorn dust here unfortunately.
- The power curve is really lumpy. While this engine is super fun and screams, the bump at 4K feels almost like a turbo kicking in. There's also something odd happening around 7-8K (I need more time to understand this). Yes ideally we'd always keep the revs well over 4K, but in a race situation that's not realistic so this is a real flaw. I suspect if the 992 GT3 stays NA and they smooth out the curve, that will be the motor to have.
- The brakes however are actually very very good, especially considering the weight of the car. Only complaint is the ABS which i've brought up elsewhere. The GT3 Fletch Edition would have an off button.
- The traction out of corners is MEGA. OMG it's mega. I know it's a general 911 thing but this is by far my favorite thing about the car on the track. It can make anyone look like a superstar.
Reflecting on the above I think the issue is that I bought into too much of the hype and reviews that surrounded the launch of the car. Yes, compared to a BMW or a Merc you might consider this 'track focused' but in reality its just a sports car - a really really good sports car that you can perhaps take to the track if you are a casual enthusiast. Nothing wrong with that, and like I said I absolutely love driving this thing on the road. IMHO all 911's should be at this level and the 'track-focused' edition would be half a ton lighter.
OK, flame away!
OK, flame away!
04-20-2018, 02:00 AM
#88
Rennlist Member
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: West Vancouver and San Francisco
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I was going to post the same thing. People tend to romanticize the Cayman platform a lot but at present time, as a platform, it's as big and heavy as 911, with slightly better weight distro, but with inferior rear suspension.
04-20-2018, 03:56 PM
#89
Rennlist Member
Going to change this around, pretty much agree however...
Agreed completely it is a street car that can still, that can still (let me repeat) have some fun on the track but not a track car. SOME of the things I love is the noise and how it puts down power, there are a lot more things to love about this car.
CJ's entire post is pretty much spot on.... #7 in particular "track days are not racing, AT BEST they're a weird form of esoteric self actualization and tourism".
Last edited by Nacelle; 04-21-2018 at 03:16 PM.
04-20-2018, 06:24 PM
#90
Race Director
opposite POV - streetable track car....... opposed to trackable street car.
This car is way too stiff, my teeth rattle out of my mouth.
I feel every bump in the road.
It is way to noisy and I can't hear myself think.
Seats are too difficult to ingress or egress.
Harnesses take too long to buckle.
My wife will not even get into the car again.
Undrivable in the rain.
There will never be a street car as good on the track as a track car and there will never be a track car as good on the street like a street car.
What are your priorities and choices?
Enjoy exploring all the differences and try maximize each nuance. Have fun!
This car is way too stiff, my teeth rattle out of my mouth.
I feel every bump in the road.
It is way to noisy and I can't hear myself think.
Seats are too difficult to ingress or egress.
Harnesses take too long to buckle.
My wife will not even get into the car again.
Undrivable in the rain.
There will never be a street car as good on the track as a track car and there will never be a track car as good on the street like a street car.
What are your priorities and choices?
Enjoy exploring all the differences and try maximize each nuance. Have fun!