My potentially unpopular thoughts on the GT3 as track car
04-17-2018, 07:38 PM
#61
Rennlist Member
YES!!!! We can all agree that the 991 GT3 is not the "Best" Track Car ever made, assuming "Best" is defined as "Fastest", and I think we can all
agree that the GT3 is not the "Best" "Grand Touring" Car ever made if "Grand Touring" is defined as "Most Comfortable, Quiet and Smooth Riding."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=prbJIZ83bdo
But to this highly experienced Sportscar Reviewer, after testing and driving the 991.1 GT3, he concluded it was the "Best Sportscar" he had ever driven.
After driving, owning, racing and instructing in many dozens of competing Sports Cars on Road and Track, over 5 decades, including owning several
dozen different 911 Models since it was introduced to the USA in 1966, I heartily agree with the Reviewer.
IMHO, the 991 GT3 is simply the "BEST SPORTSCAR" EVER BUILT. And my definition is in accordance with the original Description that defines a
"Sportscar" as being EQUALLY. proficient on the Road and on the Track. While not the "MOST COMFORTABLE" for touring, nor the "FASTEST"
on the Track, it provides a sufficiently high level of performance on both venues with Reliability, Speed, Comfort, Efficiency and Modest operating costs
that no other car has matched. This makes it the most satisfying and enjoyable car I have ever owned. If I could only own ONE car, it would be a 991 GT3.
agree that the GT3 is not the "Best" "Grand Touring" Car ever made if "Grand Touring" is defined as "Most Comfortable, Quiet and Smooth Riding."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=prbJIZ83bdo
But to this highly experienced Sportscar Reviewer, after testing and driving the 991.1 GT3, he concluded it was the "Best Sportscar" he had ever driven.
After driving, owning, racing and instructing in many dozens of competing Sports Cars on Road and Track, over 5 decades, including owning several
dozen different 911 Models since it was introduced to the USA in 1966, I heartily agree with the Reviewer.
IMHO, the 991 GT3 is simply the "BEST SPORTSCAR" EVER BUILT. And my definition is in accordance with the original Description that defines a
"Sportscar" as being EQUALLY. proficient on the Road and on the Track. While not the "MOST COMFORTABLE" for touring, nor the "FASTEST"
on the Track, it provides a sufficiently high level of performance on both venues with Reliability, Speed, Comfort, Efficiency and Modest operating costs
that no other car has matched. This makes it the most satisfying and enjoyable car I have ever owned. If I could only own ONE car, it would be a 991 GT3.
i really really like the 991 but for me the 'right-size-ness', the connectedness, the tactile sensations and the Mezger howl/excitement of a 997 GT3/RS is still preferable to a 991... no right or wrong in this, just purely subjective opinion
just took delivery of my own stick 1gt3, so maybe in a couple months i will revise this opinion... but based on some fairly limited track driving in a couple friend's/student's stick shift cars, this is what i feel
for me the 991 makes things a bit too easy a bit too comfy a bit too safe 98% of the time... 997 is slower in a relative sense but still very very fast and it is a car with much more of an edge to its character...
first world problems right?
04-17-2018, 07:40 PM
#62
Rennlist Member
i really really like the 991 but for me the 'right-size-ness', the connectedness, the tactile sensations and the excitement of a 997 GT3/RS is still preferable to a 991... no right or wrong in this, just purely subjective opinion
991 makes things too easy too comfy too safe... 997 is slower in a relative sense but still very very fast and it is a car with much more of an edge to its character...
991 makes things too easy too comfy too safe... 997 is slower in a relative sense but still very very fast and it is a car with much more of an edge to its character...
closest to its cup car relatives...
04-17-2018, 09:02 PM
#63
The GT3 is a fantastic track car. As other have stated, track car is not to be confused with race car.
The GT3 is one of the few track cars I have driven which feels compliant enough to absorb road imperfections, while being stiff enough to prevent body roll.
As far as weight, I track a GTR NISMO. That’s heavy. Still fun, and still fast though.
The GT3 is one of the few track cars I have driven which feels compliant enough to absorb road imperfections, while being stiff enough to prevent body roll.
As far as weight, I track a GTR NISMO. That’s heavy. Still fun, and still fast though.
04-18-2018, 12:20 AM
#64
Rennlist Member
One thing is for sure, GT3 is a bad track car compared to say a GT3 R. And GT3 R is a horrible track car compared to a F1 car. There may be a few dedicated track cars in the same price range one can buy that are more fun and better than GT3, but those are not street legal. So yes, GT3 may not be the best track car, but it is a good compromise for being a street and a track car at the same time, while being reliable and, of course, classy.
04-18-2018, 11:53 AM
#67
Three Wheelin'
opposite POV - streetable track car....... opposed to trackable street car.
This car is way too stiff, my teeth rattle out of my mouth.
I feel every bump in the road.
It is way to noisy and I can't hear myself think.
Seats are too difficult to ingress or egress.
Harnesses take too long to buckle.
My wife will not even get into the car again.
Undrivable in the rain.
There will never be a street car as good on the track as a track car and there will never be a track car as good on the street like a street car.
What are your priorities and choices?
Enjoy exploring all the differences and try maximize each nuance. Have fun!
This car is way too stiff, my teeth rattle out of my mouth.
I feel every bump in the road.
It is way to noisy and I can't hear myself think.
Seats are too difficult to ingress or egress.
Harnesses take too long to buckle.
My wife will not even get into the car again.
Undrivable in the rain.
There will never be a street car as good on the track as a track car and there will never be a track car as good on the street like a street car.
What are your priorities and choices?
Enjoy exploring all the differences and try maximize each nuance. Have fun!
04-18-2018, 11:58 AM
#68
Banned
opposite POV - streetable track car....... opposed to trackable street car.
This car is way too stiff, my teeth rattle out of my mouth.
I feel every bump in the road.
It is way to noisy and I can't hear myself think.
Seats are too difficult to ingress or egress.
Harnesses take too long to buckle.
My wife will not even get into the car again.
Undrivable in the rain.
This car is way too stiff, my teeth rattle out of my mouth.
I feel every bump in the road.
It is way to noisy and I can't hear myself think.
Seats are too difficult to ingress or egress.
Harnesses take too long to buckle.
My wife will not even get into the car again.
Undrivable in the rain.
04-18-2018, 12:17 PM
#69
Racer
Thread Starter
At the risk of arguing semantics, there's a spectrum from Toyota Camry's at one end and a full blown race car at the other. Everywhere along that line there are compromises. I get it.
However for me, a track car, or a 'track-focused car' is something that is designed for the track first. In the UK there is the term 'track day car' which are things like Radicals, Westfields, 3-Elevens, Caterhams etc. Even among these there are compromises, for instance a Radical is designed to give you the feel and performance of a single-seater open-wheel race car while giving the huge safety benefits of not being a single-seater or open-wheeler (IMHO it comes shockingly close - amazing machines). All of these cars are road legal (yes not Radicals in the US), so they make all kinds of compromises there obviously. These aren't race cars - they don't have numbers on the sides. They're designed for enthusiasts to give you the experience of a race car in a much safer, cheaper and more practical package. Some people of course race them, but people also race Dodge Neons and Bugatti Veyrons.
Of course if you bought one of those cars you would be making GIGANTIC compromises every time you drove on the road as opposed to the track (bugs in the face etc). Then of course there are things like the Evora - disclaimer I haven't driven one yet, but assuming it's spiritually similar to Elise which I have a lot of seat time in - where they aren't as hardcore as a 3-Eleven but it's still a track car first while being almost decent on the road.
The GT3 of course, is an exceptional road car, and when compared to other road cars its very good, even exceptional on the track - so it achieves a great compromises there. However, as others here have said its absolutely a road car first. I was a little deflated when I tracked the GT3 because (my own fault for reading too many over-excited reviews and RL posts) I had believed that they had covered this spectrum further than what they had when in reality of course, there is no unicorn dust, especially when it comes to weight.
There's also the other elephant in the room that sports cars in general have become so powerful and capable that they can often be faster at many tracks than many focused track or race cars (depending on the series). I won't open that can of worms.
However for me, a track car, or a 'track-focused car' is something that is designed for the track first. In the UK there is the term 'track day car' which are things like Radicals, Westfields, 3-Elevens, Caterhams etc. Even among these there are compromises, for instance a Radical is designed to give you the feel and performance of a single-seater open-wheel race car while giving the huge safety benefits of not being a single-seater or open-wheeler (IMHO it comes shockingly close - amazing machines). All of these cars are road legal (yes not Radicals in the US), so they make all kinds of compromises there obviously. These aren't race cars - they don't have numbers on the sides. They're designed for enthusiasts to give you the experience of a race car in a much safer, cheaper and more practical package. Some people of course race them, but people also race Dodge Neons and Bugatti Veyrons.
Of course if you bought one of those cars you would be making GIGANTIC compromises every time you drove on the road as opposed to the track (bugs in the face etc). Then of course there are things like the Evora - disclaimer I haven't driven one yet, but assuming it's spiritually similar to Elise which I have a lot of seat time in - where they aren't as hardcore as a 3-Eleven but it's still a track car first while being almost decent on the road.
The GT3 of course, is an exceptional road car, and when compared to other road cars its very good, even exceptional on the track - so it achieves a great compromises there. However, as others here have said its absolutely a road car first. I was a little deflated when I tracked the GT3 because (my own fault for reading too many over-excited reviews and RL posts) I had believed that they had covered this spectrum further than what they had when in reality of course, there is no unicorn dust, especially when it comes to weight.
There's also the other elephant in the room that sports cars in general have become so powerful and capable that they can often be faster at many tracks than many focused track or race cars (depending on the series). I won't open that can of worms.
Last edited by _fletch; 04-18-2018 at 01:25 PM.
04-18-2018, 02:17 PM
#70
YES!!!! We can all agree that the 991 GT3 is not the "Best" Track Car ever made, assuming "Best" is defined as "Fastest", and I think we can all
agree that the GT3 is not the "Best" "Grand Touring" Car ever made if "Grand Touring" is defined as "Most Comfortable, Quiet and Smooth Riding."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=prbJIZ83bdo
But to this highly experienced Sportscar Reviewer, after testing and driving the 991.1 GT3, he concluded it was the "Best Sportscar" he had ever driven.
After driving, owning, racing and instructing in many dozens of competing Sports Cars on Road and Track, over 5 decades, including owning several
dozen different 911 Models since it was introduced to the USA in 1966, I heartily agree with the Reviewer.
IMHO, the 991 GT3 is simply the "BEST SPORTSCAR" EVER BUILT. And my definition is in accordance with the original Description that defines a
"Sportscar" as being EQUALLY. proficient on the Road and on the Track. While not the "MOST COMFORTABLE" for touring, nor the "FASTEST"
on the Track, it provides a sufficiently high level of performance on both venues with Reliability, Speed, Comfort, Efficiency and Modest operating costs
that no other car has matched. This makes it the most satisfying and enjoyable car I have ever owned. If I could only own ONE car, it would be a 991 GT3.
agree that the GT3 is not the "Best" "Grand Touring" Car ever made if "Grand Touring" is defined as "Most Comfortable, Quiet and Smooth Riding."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=prbJIZ83bdo
But to this highly experienced Sportscar Reviewer, after testing and driving the 991.1 GT3, he concluded it was the "Best Sportscar" he had ever driven.
After driving, owning, racing and instructing in many dozens of competing Sports Cars on Road and Track, over 5 decades, including owning several
dozen different 911 Models since it was introduced to the USA in 1966, I heartily agree with the Reviewer.
IMHO, the 991 GT3 is simply the "BEST SPORTSCAR" EVER BUILT. And my definition is in accordance with the original Description that defines a
"Sportscar" as being EQUALLY. proficient on the Road and on the Track. While not the "MOST COMFORTABLE" for touring, nor the "FASTEST"
on the Track, it provides a sufficiently high level of performance on both venues with Reliability, Speed, Comfort, Efficiency and Modest operating costs
that no other car has matched. This makes it the most satisfying and enjoyable car I have ever owned. If I could only own ONE car, it would be a 991 GT3.
It’s the perfect car to drive 8h to the ring and haul around all day and drive back the next day. I wouldn’t do that in my 997rs4.0 nor my 996gt3. Once on track I would prefer to drive both those cars before the 991gt3.
With the 991gt3 you can have the cake and still eat it.
04-18-2018, 03:42 PM
#71
04-18-2018, 07:47 PM
#72
Rennlist Member
Reading this thread, I am so glad I have never driven a real race car or some other dedicated track car. For me, GT3 has been an amazing and the best road and track car I have ever experienced. One, I still need to learn a lot to be able to master. Who said ignorance can’t be a bliss?
04-18-2018, 08:43 PM
#73
the OP originally was horrified that you could not disable ABS - that is his issue…
I agree with the OP - the GT3 is not a race car - to expect otherwise is simply foolish.
but it is one of the best sports cars for the track - if not the best, and still an awesome street car.
I chalk the whole thing up to confused expectations. It's not a race car, and wasn't designed to be a race car.
I agree with the OP - the GT3 is not a race car - to expect otherwise is simply foolish.
but it is one of the best sports cars for the track - if not the best, and still an awesome street car.
I chalk the whole thing up to confused expectations. It's not a race car, and wasn't designed to be a race car.
04-18-2018, 08:58 PM
#74
At the risk of arguing semantics, there's a spectrum from Toyota Camry's at one end and a full blown race car at the other. Everywhere along that line there are compromises. I get it.
However for me, a track car, or a 'track-focused car' is something that is designed for the track first. In the UK there is the term 'track day car' which are things like Radicals, Westfields, 3-Elevens, Caterhams etc. Even among these there are compromises, for instance a Radical is designed to give you the feel and performance of a single-seater open-wheel race car while giving the huge safety benefits of not being a single-seater or open-wheeler (IMHO it comes shockingly close - amazing machines). All of these cars are road legal (yes not Radicals in the US), so they make all kinds of compromises there obviously. These aren't race cars - they don't have numbers on the sides. They're designed for enthusiasts to give you the experience of a race car in a much safer, cheaper and more practical package. Some people of course race them, but people also race Dodge Neons and Bugatti Veyrons.
Of course if you bought one of those cars you would be making GIGANTIC compromises every time you drove on the road as opposed to the track (bugs in the face etc). Then of course there are things like the Evora - disclaimer I haven't driven one yet, but assuming it's spiritually similar to Elise which I have a lot of seat time in - where they aren't as hardcore as a 3-Eleven but it's still a track car first while being almost decent on the road.
The GT3 of course, is an exceptional road car, and when compared to other road cars its very good, even exceptional on the track - so it achieves a great compromises there. However, as others here have said its absolutely a road car first. I was a little deflated when I tracked the GT3 because (my own fault for reading too many over-excited reviews and RL posts) I had believed that they had covered this spectrum further than what they had when in reality of course, there is no unicorn dust, especially when it comes to weight.
There's also the other elephant in the room that sports cars in general have become so powerful and capable that they can often be faster at many tracks than many focused track or race cars (depending on the series). I won't open that can of worms.
However for me, a track car, or a 'track-focused car' is something that is designed for the track first. In the UK there is the term 'track day car' which are things like Radicals, Westfields, 3-Elevens, Caterhams etc. Even among these there are compromises, for instance a Radical is designed to give you the feel and performance of a single-seater open-wheel race car while giving the huge safety benefits of not being a single-seater or open-wheeler (IMHO it comes shockingly close - amazing machines). All of these cars are road legal (yes not Radicals in the US), so they make all kinds of compromises there obviously. These aren't race cars - they don't have numbers on the sides. They're designed for enthusiasts to give you the experience of a race car in a much safer, cheaper and more practical package. Some people of course race them, but people also race Dodge Neons and Bugatti Veyrons.
Of course if you bought one of those cars you would be making GIGANTIC compromises every time you drove on the road as opposed to the track (bugs in the face etc). Then of course there are things like the Evora - disclaimer I haven't driven one yet, but assuming it's spiritually similar to Elise which I have a lot of seat time in - where they aren't as hardcore as a 3-Eleven but it's still a track car first while being almost decent on the road.
The GT3 of course, is an exceptional road car, and when compared to other road cars its very good, even exceptional on the track - so it achieves a great compromises there. However, as others here have said its absolutely a road car first. I was a little deflated when I tracked the GT3 because (my own fault for reading too many over-excited reviews and RL posts) I had believed that they had covered this spectrum further than what they had when in reality of course, there is no unicorn dust, especially when it comes to weight.
There's also the other elephant in the room that sports cars in general have become so powerful and capable that they can often be faster at many tracks than many focused track or race cars (depending on the series). I won't open that can of worms.
The whole point of a gt3 rs is to drive to the track have fun go home and maybe daily it or go for a fun run when you have the chance, while being reliable, and hassle free, safe and fairly comfortable but always with performance and fun first.
A radical is cool because is dirt cheap to buy and run and you have a cool fun championship(s) and you don't need to worry about much as you can have support from radical on track for not much.
The street legal radicals aren't even a compromise, they are a superfulous showboating, they are useless and stupidly expensive. Makes no sense.
caterhams are good tho, but if you live very far from cool tracks it's an hassle and you will end up trailing it to events, and by that time you might be better with something else.
I don't see any problem with GT track cars, besides the wrong expectacions or perspectives.
04-18-2018, 10:51 PM
#75
RL Community Team
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
