sampelligrino

Ok here's some likely dumb questions from a *complete* novice/noob

- What are the drawbacks if any switching to your battery from the OEM one? Any risks/downsides? Or is it really $700 to drop roughly 40 lbs and as straight forward as that? This seems like a no-brainer when WP costs how much again on the .2 3RS...

- Any warranty issues with Porsche if you switch the OEM battery to this lithium type?

- Is this type of battery for a specific intended use like tracking or what about the guys who do most of their GT3 driving in canyons/regular roads, daily use etc...

Antigravity

Just want to clarify... we offer way lighter wieght options for those looking for that... but if you are looking at a battery that will be a REPLACEMENT battery for an Automobile then you want to consider more than getting your lightest battery option. I can sell you a 10 Amp Hour battery all day long that will work fine for starting your car, and it will weigh about 4 pounds and be a little bigger than your fist. (you might not know we also make the most compact and powerful lithium batteries available anywhere.. see here AG SMALL CASE BATTERIES) but when I'm talking a Automotive Battery for publicly driven Automobile use I'm not talking about a Battery that you have to monitor every week and keep on a charger if you are not driving often. There are many factors you have to think about in driving an Automobile on public roads and I'll get into that below. I will certainly sell you the smaller version, and it will kick butt... but it you need to understand you take on the added responsibility of potentially maintaining the battery more often.

A specific Automobile Battery like the RS-30, from my perspective, is the best way to go and will have enough Amp Hours to satisfy break-down situations and road side emergencies. Meaning if you break down on your favorite back road that battery had better power your hazard lights for a good number of hours, you don't want someone not seeing you at night with your car on the side of the road. Also it should be able to sit in your garage for 2 months and without you having to put it on a charger or worry about it. Last you shouldn't have to dink around putting Car Terminals on it or rigging fitment it. It just a plug and play type thing. That's what I'm saying about the RS-30. So with the RS-30 I am talking about a real, no messing around Auto Battery replacement. But other options are certainly viable.

But don't let that change your opinion of going with a smaller battery IF you are into your car and its performance to the degree that 5 pounds less is what you want and you are willing to understand there might be a little more maintenance, then absolutely you can go smaller. I used our 7Ah battery in our Toyota Tacoma for 2 years.without issue and it had no protections...but we drove it alot and it never really sat and we knew not to play the stereo when it wasn't running and stuff. We also drove locally. I would NEVER recommend that though... we advance way beyond that but just making the point that smaller batteries can work... My recommendation for a Street use battery is the least you should go with for any Car Battery is 15 REAL amp hours.

Antigravity

For the over 15v issue you asked about.... yes our battery has Over-Charger protections... but it is rated on a per cell basis within the BMS (tech stuff) so that equates to about 1.5v of temporary over-charge protection. So this accounts for any variable within a Vehicle charging system and works great so that is covered. But it WILL NOT handle being put on a Lead/Acid charger that goes into "Desulphate Mode" and starts spiking 17 to 24 volts into a Lithium Battery. I will bring up Chargers on another post but to keep it simple .. The Cars system chargers the Lithium Battery fine, no worries at al... but the after market Lead/Acid Chargers are what can harm a Lithium battery because they have Desulphate and other modes that do not read a lithium battery correctly. Later I will get into this as it lengthy.

As far as the PIWIS and as stated by the "Gold Certified" 12 years working at Rusnak Porsche in Ca said upon me asking "So what actually does the PIWIS do when you change the settings?" He said...."well, Porsche won't give us the details at to what exactly happens, but being that you can select the Amp Hours of the Lithium Battery while in the PIWIS, I believe it turns on some of the Porsche Battery Management system features sooner, to take into consideration that lithium can be drained faster". So he really didn't know the details beyond that and his statement seemed reasonable. So I have no more information than that though he showed me the selection choices. Also this is a 15-20 minute job if you take your car in so don't let them say its hours and jack you on cost. But as I said earlier I have not encountered any issues what so ever in the our GT3 RS without the PIWIS set to lithium.

Antigravity

No real risks for the battery, but you should only use a Lithium Battery charger on it (I'll get into that on another post). Risks are as normally any other car... don't misconnect the terminals, don't short-circuit the battery. No risk to the car when installing in provided you connect the terminals correctly.

- What are the drawbacks if any switching to your battery from the OEM one? Any risks/downsides? Or is it really $700 to drop roughly 40 lbs and as straight forward as that? This seems like a no-brainer when WP costs how much again on the .2 3RS...
Draw back#1 You are in fact getting a lower overall Amp Hour rating than the stock Lead/Acid battery.

Drawback#2 If you do go with Lithium you will need to get a lithium charger to charge the battey itself IF you need to charge it ever.. .but you really shouldn't need to charge it much if ever. But only get an Optimate Lihtium or CTEK Lithium brands. They are the only ones we tested that aren't just re-hashing a lead/acid battery charge curve...Optimate is recommended more because its a little more based in double checking the battery as it charges. They range from about $60 dollars to $110 dollars for more Amps that can charge the battery faster. But keep in mind if you have an Antigravity Battery with RE-START you won't ever be in a over-discharged state where you would need a bigger amp model, nor would you need the recovery mode since your battery won't get over-discharged.... so you can stick with the $60 dollar one. But honestly unless you go off for a long period just don't use the charger.

Drawback#3 Cold weather starting is NOT as good as Lead/Acid when you are in the 30 degree and below weather..... there can be sluggish first start attempt because the resistance is higher in the lithium battery cells in cold weather. This can create a more sluggish first start attempt. But it should be noted that when you do a start attempt in cold weather the lithium battery will self-warm and then have more power on the next start attempt. Or you can leave the lights on for about 2-3 minutes which also warms the battery and you will get a better start. But this is in the very cold, or what I call cold weather of 20-30 degrees... We actually had an issue with our RS-20 (the previous version of the RS-30) that it had voltage cut-out in very cold weather in Canada. We eliminated that problem with the larger Amp hours and revising the BMS... but in general the battery is better suited for above freezing weather... where Sports Cars are mostly driven. Last, by the end of the year we should have our latest NEW lithium chemical make-up that will NOT be affected by the cold... that is all I can say on that for now. But overall this RS-30 handled a number of trips up to Mammoth Mountain this year without a hitch in starting and that was in the 20s....so I'm quite confident in fairly cold weather starting

Drawback#4 Shops don't tend to know much about lithium batteries.... so tell them not to put your battery on a charger if you do the Dyno runs or have work done on it.... alot of times they are starting the cars alot or tuning or dyno runs and sometimes just put the battery on a charger.... You should inform them if they are going to do that to be aware its a lithium battery... but this battery would rip start a Porsche 100 times and not bat an eye.... I'm just saying these guys who do dynos or mechanics often don't realize its a lithium battery in the cars so make them aware it won't need any charge and not to do it.

Drawback #5.... IF the RS-30 didn't have all the built-in protections that is does I would go into warnings on not over-discharging a Lithium battery... but since it has those protections and will never get harmed by over-discharge I won't go into that... But for those of you who might have Lithium Batteries without a real BMS and protections just be aware... do not allow them to go below 10.5v...

- Any warranty issues with Porsche if you switch the OEM battery to this lithium type?
To be honest I do not know officially Porsches stance.... But what I can say is Porsche makes their own Lithium-Ion battery for the car. Their batteries are of the same exact chemical make up as ours... Lithium-Iron Phosphate (Lifepo4)... so it operates at exactly the same voltage and within the exact same specs. Additionally, our BMS is actually superior to their BMS, being there have been a number of their units over-discharged according to the Tech I spoke to. Last if you are allowed to replace the Lead/Acid Battery with a new one of a different brand this should and is the same thing. I do not believe they cannot legally disclaim any warranty based on the exact same chemical make up and a PIWIS system that is made to select for that same battery. Now officially they might say something else please check and I also will call the tech on this.

- Is this type of battery for a specific intended use like tracking or what about the guys who do most of their GT3 driving in canyons/regular roads, daily use etc...[

This battery is our specific Automotive Version of our Batteries. So its intended use as we designed it was to be for Hi Performance daily driven Automobiles/Sports Cars Vehicles, but keep in mind this battery is Raced almost as much since we have it in many of the off-road trucks and in the Global Time attack cars and such. But it still weighs a solid 35 pounds less than the stock GT3 battery! We put more amp hours in the RS-30 to cover all street driving needs and make a solid battery that can handle 2 months of sitting without a charger in a 2014 and later model 991. The full blow Racers do go with our Smaller batteries because a lot of time they put the battery in the cars cab or in other small locations, and only need to get the vehicle started.

.

GrantG

Thank you! Yes, Porsche is good about supplying all the engine power it can. If you are at wide open throttle, the air conditioning compressor also turns off to reduce parasitic power loss...

drdonger

drdonger

MaxLTV

So RS 30 would be the battery to get for a daily/street driven car. Would you suggest a smaller battery for a car that's driven to the track, parked overnight there, tracked and then put on maintainer when back in the garage? So basically a trackday, one overnight parking without a maintainer, and on maintainer the rest of the time scenario (typical for many track-only cars).

GrantG

Petevb

astolfor

I have used LiPOs in my sailboat (solo racing across oceans) and are entirely different than what most people know as Lithium and much more stable.
I was under the impression that the the 787's were Lithuim ions which are a lot more volatile than LiPOs.
My main dissagreement with Antigravity is the that not all LiPOs are created equal, just like with everything.
@antigravity where are your cells made? what is the ODM/OEM?

Antigravity

Hi Pete this is a very relevant area and I'm glad to openly discuss it, but again this will be a long post but you guys will all be pros about lithium pretty soon...

I did not list a fire potential as a Drawback for RS-30 since I don't expect a fire or even thermal runaway situation to ever occur with the RS-30 due to the high level of protections it has built in. Also its a very rare to get to a thermal runaway condition, and getting to such a condition is even rarer with our newer batteries with the full BMS and protections. Is there a potential for it ever happening, yes, there is a potential for any energy dense battery to go into what is called Thermal Runaway. But if I explain the conditions that occur to cause thermal runaway, then you may understand better why it is quite unlikely and quite rare.

1- First off there are many different chemistries of lithium ion...You can have Lithium Iron Phosphate (LiFEPO4), which is what you will find in all the Automotive/Powersports batteries that you see. There is also lithium manganese, lithium cobalt (LiCO), which also called Lithium Polymer, and others. So when you compare Lithium Iron Phosphate to most the other formats of lithium it is quite a bit more stable than most the other lithium formats and arguably considered the safest format of Lithium Batteries. But more importantly, for the use in automotive/powersports applications, it operates in the same voltage range as the typical 12V Lead/Acid battery. Though it has a slightly higher nominal voltage, and usually rests at 13.2 V compared to lead acid 12.8 V, it still operates in the exact same voltage range so that makes it completely compatible with an Automotive charging system. Whereas if you used something like lithium cobalt (LICO) which operates in a different voltage range it would not take the charge well from an Automotive system and could potentially explode if attached to the Automotive's charging system. My main point with this statement is just to show there's different types of lithium chemistries and in the automotive format you are actually using the safest chemistry available.

2-So even though lithium iron phosphate is considered arguably one of the safest lithium chemistries it still has potential for thermal runaway, which is generally when the battery overheats for certain specific reasons, and then keeps overheating through the batteries energy and starts to melt down (basic description). But thermal runaway is not a spontaneous out of the blue condition that happens to a Lithium Iron Phosphate battery. I also want to make clear that thermal runaway does not mean a FIRE whatsoever. Yes the battery pack overheats, yes there is quite a bit of smoke from the high heat, but in general there is rarely if ever a raw flame as other chemistries can have happen like in the Hover Boards that were catching fire (Lithium Cobalt LICO). The condition usually results in a melted battery that has been overheated and the plastic is melted and twisted. It's absolutely something you don't want to happen, but again there are certain set of circumstances that trigger this reaction and it does not mean a fire will happen.


Throughout Antigravity Batteries eight years of producing our Motorsports Batteries we have absolutely encountered thermal runaway a number of times but it is very rare. But I will be blunt , if the Consumer had taken the time to read and follow our Users Manual (you can find here) and followed the Safety Warnings, which on the front page of the USERS MANUAL and say DANGER! IMPORTANT SAFETY INSTRUCTIONS READ FIRST!! in bold RED Font, it could be argued they would never have had any problem. But we know that some Customers will not read the Warnings. So we also put a YELLOW and BLACK Caution sticker on the Battery itself to go over the main warnings again.... but also some don't pay attention to that. So my point being that were doing all we can to inform the customers of the potential dangers of Lihtium and things to avoid to prevent the thermal runaway, but though rare it can happen. But again I am speaking of this happening on our our OLDER VERSIONS of the battery that DID NOT have the current protections built in and it was very rare, and we found in every circumstance the reason was due the reasons I describe below. Which on the current batteries and RS-30 can't happen.


3- So what causes thermal runaway? There are basically a couple factors.... The first and most important and the one that has caused 90% of any thermal runaway we've ever seen is that the lithium battery in the vehicle has been severely over-discharged, (which cannot happen with our latest batteries) and while it is severely over-discharged the Consumer has done one of the following... They have jump-started or pushed-started the vehicle which then makes the vehicle run and start fast-charging the lithium battery.... And if a lithium battery is in the 0V to 8V range it cannot handle being fast charged.... But the vehicles charging system does not take this low state of charge into consideration, so it just start pumping in a charge to the battery when it cannot take that charge. The lithium battery then starts to overheat because it is fast charging and then starts to go into a thermal runaway state. So to add some facts to this, a lithium battery that is over-discharged below 10.5 V must be gently massaged back to 10.5 V in order to accept a faster charge rate. It becomes exacerbated if the battery is at a very low state of charge for example from that 2v to 6v range.... That means the battery is suffering from a fast-charge from a much lower state of charge and is overheating rapidly internally. If this lasts long enough the battery will then start to overheat and go into a full thermal runaway. That condition is rare but it has happened a couple times and resulted in a melted down battery. So to reiterate a lithium battery must be massaged back up gently from and over-discharged state. That is why it is important to use a lithium specific charger because a quality lithium charger will understand that the battery is at 4V or 6V or 8V and gently massage the battery up until it reaches roughly 10.5 V at which point it can then go into a normal charge rate.

Now keep in mind this same scenario can happen when the Consumer has bought a lithium battery (without protections) and for whatever reason it has again over-discharged. Maybe it was a long storage, or leaving the lights on, or key in the ignition the battery has become severely over-discharged. Then the Consumer un knowingly puts the battery ib a lead/ acid charger NOT a lithium Charger.... And this Lead/Acid charger does not take into consideration that is a lithium battery that needs to be gently massaged back up to 10.5v... so that can cause thermal runaway just like the vehicle system did when the battery was severely over- discharged. Again it's the same scenario where the battery can overheat and go into thermal runaway because it was being charged at a fast rate from a low state of charge.


The last reason we have ever seen thermal runaway is due to an overcharge of the battery... And again this is a very specific reason that is exceptionally rare that I will explain. In this situation the vehicles voltage regulator has gone bad and now is spiking 17v to 24v to the lithium battery in the vehicle. I further want to explain that this has never happened in an Automobile because an Automobile has a much better voltage regulator system than the 1970s Motorcycles I am talking about. We have only seen this condition happen in pre-1995 Harley-Davidson motorcycles, and the older 1960s through 1980s Japanese bikes like the Honda CB models. These two vehicles had mechanical voltage regulators back in the day that would freeze open and allow spiking voltages. So what has happened is it has become an exceptionally large trend to rehab these motorcycles into Custom Bikes and Bobbers yet most of the people that are rehabbing these bikes don't understand that the voltage regulator has gone bad and unknowingly put the lithium battery in and in the very rare circumstances it has run into thermal runaway. And we have only seen the thermal runaway in these bikes specifically for that reason of the voltage regulator that starts spiking extremely high-voltage.


4- So as you can see we are familiar with thermal runaway, but we are at the forefront of technology and have implemented the latest protections into our battery including thermal protection, over-discharge and over-charge protection with proper cell balancing so the cells charge correctly together. But keep in mind if you operate a battery that does not have these protections they can still function quite well but if you do make a mistake it can lead to a damaged battery, or rarely but possible thermal runaway.


It should also be understood that the level of quality of the battery cell itself varies greatly... The lithium cells that are available are graded and if you're using crappy cells you're going to have an unstable battery regardless of protections. Additionally the quality of the BMS (Battery Management System) will greatly affect the battery stability. So if you're buying a cheap battery cell you're asking for potential problems because a lot of the cheap stuff that comes out of China now is often blended with recycled powders creating an unstable lithium cell. So this is not a field to mess around with, you have to absolutely know your stuff and work with the best cell manufacturers,and companies that are capable of making high quality battery management systems.


So in conclusion regarding thermal runaway potential for fire in our batteries it would be exceptionally rare in general, but with the level of protections in something like the RS-30 or our other current RESTART batteries with the low-voltage cut offs your never getting to a point where you have the battery in an over-discharged state because our battery management system won't allow it. We still actually make batteries without the protections and they are still used successfully, but for our own peace of mind and staying with leading edge technology we have brought in the latest/greatest technology so that we could make these batteries more fool-proof and not allow the customer to even get into the potential situations that might damage the battery or cause thermal runaway.


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To answer your question about the major manufacturers not implementing the latest technology.... the fact is they have and are doing this, but they are working on a much larger scale with systems that are not remotely comparable to a small battery like ours. The systems they develop are exceptionally complex and believe me all these companies have engineering teams working on this and figuring out every aspect so they have implemented every potential safety idea or feature they can, but things just happen. I don't have that answer.

Antigravity

Hey Astol,
Thanks for participating but if you say I said something please make sure you are being accurate and stating what I said. I talk in facts. I would never say Lithium batteries are the same, this is what I do for a living. Also you are indicating I said all LIPO are created equal. I don't quite understand you statements either since they are sort of inaccurate, LIPO is not Lifepo, and there are many varients in Lithium Polymer batteries which are LIPO. Maybe you think because I stated "all the Motorsports batteries are Lifepo4" you think I meant all the Lithium Batteries are the same?

All I ever stated was all the Motorsports batteries are Lifepo4... that is fact. That means Antigravity , Braille, Voltphreaks and any other you can name all use the Lifepo4 chemistry of Lithium. That is because the Lifepo4 chemistry works with 12v Lead Acid based system. There are varying grade of quality and energy curves within that.

Your are also quite wrong on your terminology in discussing lithium batteries. There is not a LITHIUM-ION specific battery or specific chemistry. If you're in the battery industry you understand that the term "Lithium-Ion" is an umbrella term used to describe a "rechargeable lithium battery". That means my Antigravity RS-30 is a Lithium-Ion Battery as well as the Milwaukee Screw Guns at Home Depot that uses a completely different Lithium chemisty. Both are Lithium-Ion because they are both "rechargeable Lithium chemistries" The misnomer you find on the internet is that Lithium-Ion designates a certain chemistry of battery. It does not, as I said it's an umbrella term.

The other issue you are WAY off on is stating Lithium-Ions are more volatile than LIPOs.... That doesn't make sense because as I said Lithium-Ion is not specific chemistry... it is just an umbrella term. So if you are going to state one battery chemistry is more volatile than another you can't say Lithium-Ion since it does not designate a specific chemistry. But additionally LiPo batteries, (known as Lithium Polymer and are most often Lithium Cobalt) are absolutely one of the most volatile forms of Lithium batteries made, and are responsible for more fires than any other Lithium chemistry. The are more energy dense and do not handle over-charge or over discharge well at all and go into thermal runaway faster than the other chemistries. They and much less stable than most other chemistries. To put this into perspective LiPo batteries, which is mainly know as Lithium Cobalt based batteries are the batteries that are in Radio Controlled Cars and Planes, and are so volatile that you charge them in fire proof bags when you don't have protections circuits on them... ask any RC guy. Additionally they are the batteries that are in the Hooverboards that were catching fire so much a year ago. Granted they are also in Laptops and other electronics but those have protections systems in place so they won't get over-charged or over discharged. But they are not the stable choice in Lithium chemistries

Also I would be glad to speak to you on the PM but lets not go back and forth on types of lithium-ion in this particular thread. Its about Motorsports Batteries and the specifics related to that. That is my forte and what I do as my living. and everything I state will be accurate though you don't have to listen or accept it. I'm not talking point of view, I'm talking facts.

Antigravity

Both of these are similar questions...so I'll answer both here.

I want to make clear I'm not trying to dissuade anybody from the smaller lithium batteries they can absolutely work for you provided as you watch the voltage and put on a maintainer if you're not going to drive for a longer period of time. We have a number of options that would work for the track day cars and/or race cars, and you can even street them.... You have a number of options....

So if you're talking a track day car that you can still drive to the track you should get something in the 10 amp hour range....

This is the ATX 20 battery .... it weighs just under 4 pounds, will easily rip start a GT3 but though it says its a 20Ah PbEq... the real Amp hour rating is 12Ah. So its solid and drops 6 pounds off the RS-30 and is much more compact about 1/3rd the size at 6.9 x 3.5 x 5.12 inches. It also has the low voltage cut off and RE-START feature... but it more of a simplified version compared to the RS-30... but is much better for what you want in compact ultra lightweight https://shop.antigravitybatteries.co...-oem/atx20-rs/

The ATX-30 is the same model line as the ATX20 but has 18 real Amp hours... so more power, more capacity and is phycially a bit bigger... almost like a small car battery at 6.5 x 5 x 6.89 in and is 6.3 lbs but kicks hard and has 18 real Amp hours though rated at 30Ah Pb Eq... but it is more in line with the VoltPhreaks type battery unfortunately we are sold out until late April early May.... .https://shop.antigravitybatteries.co...-oem/atx30-rs/

Then if you want to venture in batteries that do NOT have the protections and need to be watched more but have super energy dense power and are the most compact and powerful battery of any company.... its this AG-1601 at 4.5″ x 3.25″ x 5.25″ Ultra compact yet has no protections so it can put our higher power in a smaller format. If you maintain it it works awesome and is only a hair over 3 lbs! It has been one of the best sellers for a long time because it starts most anything up to 650 Horsepower yet is so light and compact...but at 10 real Ah it not go alot of reserve capacity but makes up for that with just killer power in the lightest smallest format possible. https://shop.antigravitybatteries.com/products/starter-batteries/small-case/ag-1601/

So those are some option for track and can actually work on the street. If you go full race you can get into the 2.4 pound range but that is just starting and we tell Racers to make sure they have a cut off switch so they don't leave it connected to long... it called the AG-1201... No protections on board... but I used this battery at 7Ah in my daily driver Toyota Tacoma for 2 years...

So it only about how much you want to get involved in watching your voltage and over-discharge potential... you can tons of options but you just want to be realistic about what you want to do and how much you want to monitor a battery.

FourT6and2

I can corroborate about LiPo batteries being super volatile. I've built a few R/C helicopters that ran on lithium polymer batteries and they are very dangerous. I doubt any company making lithium batteries for real cars would ever use LiPo packs.