Tale of a GT2RS Allocation
04-06-2018, 02:46 AM
#106
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Lifetime Rennlist
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Lifetime Rennlist
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I've only been in the Porsche game for 10 years, but it seems that since GT cars have become status symbols vs cars built for the track junkies, obtaining them has become more challenging. Add to that the seemingly never ending spike in used vintage Porsches, and suddenly people of significant wealth want a car that doesn't really match with its intended use. Also, these GT cars have become quite user friendly- my 991.2 GT3 is more comfy to drive on a daily basis then my prior 991.1 4S. Just some thoughts. My dealer was too small to get me a GT2. placed an order but it was never fulfilled. Sadly I track my cars, so would have been fascinating to actually get a GT2. But my 991.1 RS is just amazing, so cant wait until my 991.2 arrives in fall!
Then the 997s came out with .1 and .2 RS and markups were huge and the buyers changed a bit. Even then a lot of us who had bought a lot of cars started get muscled out of PROMISED cars (sound familiar?) Dealers started hijinks even back then. Now look at this forum MOST GT3s wont ever go near a track. Look at the number of Paint to Sample threads. I had a friend say he wont buy a car unless its a PTS. Then I saw what I never thought I would see in a drivers forum. Someone was asking what kind of lighting system to get so the headlight ring color will match his wheels and seat belts color. I quickly zipped up to the top to see if I had mistakenly got onto a Ferrari or S Class forum. I almost forgot about the what CXX option do you like best?
So now most of these cars are going to cars and coffee and or air conditioned storage bubble. Some guys here have Ferrari disease and wont go above 1500 miles before selling. These cars are meant to wear the tires out lap after lap at what ever track is closest or the back country twisties. They are just DD hot rods to a lot of these guys. So the real drivers cant get one to go DRIVING. But its a free market and now these drivers cars are status symbols painted with some special color.
Where are the threads on "Do you change your oil between sessions" or "how do you carry your second set of wheels and tires to the track threads"? Who freaking cares what color the car is? I just want to hear the motor at 9,000 RPM.I remember when our cars were painted with blue painters tape and rubber tire boogers. The cars have become so good anyone can drive them and or buy them.
04-06-2018, 03:04 AM
#107
Rennlist Member
@OldGuy: My theory is that it’s even deeper than these cars being easier to drive.
For the last ten years central banks including the US have been printing money non stop, the stock market has only gone up, the economy has been doing well, and rich people got richer through the recent tax cuts. All that money has to find things to buy, and when there’s so much of it floating around a lot more people have access to high ticket products, especially one that they perceive will cost them nothing to buy cause at worst they’ll sell them for what they paid for it. As long as the economic environment stays the same none of this will change, and as much as I’d like everyone who wants these cars to be able to walk into a dealer and order one without all the current ordeals, I'm not going to root for the economy to tank in order to achieve that.
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Anyhoot, this conversation has at times been somewhat interesting but has now run its course, thus I will politely remove myself from it. I sincerely wish the best to anyone trying to secure an msrp allocation for these fantastic vehicles, and I completely empathize with anyone who finds the process unacceptable and walks away from the brand.
For the last ten years central banks including the US have been printing money non stop, the stock market has only gone up, the economy has been doing well, and rich people got richer through the recent tax cuts. All that money has to find things to buy, and when there’s so much of it floating around a lot more people have access to high ticket products, especially one that they perceive will cost them nothing to buy cause at worst they’ll sell them for what they paid for it. As long as the economic environment stays the same none of this will change, and as much as I’d like everyone who wants these cars to be able to walk into a dealer and order one without all the current ordeals, I'm not going to root for the economy to tank in order to achieve that.
—————————————————
Anyhoot, this conversation has at times been somewhat interesting but has now run its course, thus I will politely remove myself from it. I sincerely wish the best to anyone trying to secure an msrp allocation for these fantastic vehicles, and I completely empathize with anyone who finds the process unacceptable and walks away from the brand.
04-06-2018, 04:07 AM
#108
Interesting thread. I agree with Soulsea, ChadW and others that it's easy to complain and bash the ADM game but you cannot have it both ways. I negotiated down to the last penny I could under MSRP on every Porsche I've bought (as well as for family since I actually like going into dealerships, viewing the beautiful cars, rolling up my sleeves, and driving a hard bargain). 4 Cayenne Turbos since original was released and every generation of 911 since the 996. Unfortunately, because I shopped for the best prices and who would offer the best discount (among other factors like who had the car with the spec we wanted on the lot), I didn't build up a relationship with a specific dealer other than our local dealer for servicing the cars. That being said, we got under MSRP *on every Porsche we've bought*, all brand new. I'm not saying this to toot my horn than I'm wealthy and we've owned a whole bunch of Porsches, but for the fact that it goes both ways. I got under MSRP and as a whole, I saved a hell of a lot more money than the ADM I had to pay for my GT3 allocation. At first I felt entitled and I was upset that I had to pay an ADM, but I realized *most, not all of us* pay an ADM one way or another.
The GT car, like the Nautilus, Ceramic Daytona, AP 39mm etc, is a carrot on a stick for dealers to reward their best and most loyal customers. Why else would a client agree to pay MSRP no questions asked without negotiating at all, or buy a fleet of Porsches from the same dealer, unless he or she knows that they will be a good customer in the eyes of the dealer and form a *mutually beneficial* business relationship. The customer buys cars that is hard for the dealer to sell, or buys multiple cars over a period of time to move inventory, or pays MSRP straight up on cars that sell for under MSRP. And in return, the client gets rewarded because he's made the dealership money and helped the dealership *operate their business* with that 1) elusive GT allocation and 2) most likely at MSRP.
If you didn't get that GT allocation at MSRP, the higher up you go .2 GT3, .2 3RS, .2 2RS, I bet that there was a client that did more for the dealership than you and that's why the allocation went the way it did. Unless you got it in writing that you are putting a deposit down to be "X" on the list and that the dealer would abide by the terms and by the list to dole the allocations out solely by said list, I think the list is BS and just something for the dealers to have in the event that this preferred client does not want the car, then they work their way down that list for the easy sale versus having to market the allocation and deal with the tire kickers left and right.
This is why I came to be at peace with my ADM on my measly .2 GT3 and it is everything I had hoped for my first GT car and more.
People, *including myself* (I don't like to throw stones when my house is made of glass), feel entitled to an allocation, and on top of that at MSRP, but fail to realize there is a bigger fish likely doing more for the dealership 9 times out of 10 which makes sense. That 10 out 10 situation with the owner getting a car or owners son, or a RLer getting an allocation at MSRP without an extensive purchase history or buying Macans/Cayenne/Panny @ MSRP no questions asked, is the outlier/rare case I would guess.
Same thing with my Rolex SS Daytona. I paid an "ADM" from my jeweler and got this watch that I cannot take off my wrist (it's the best watch I've ever owned), and I did it without buying non-desirable models at $8-9k a piece minimum, or without buying the precious metal models at $25k a piece minimum, and spent "just" $5k extra. It actually saved me money to pay the ADM if I was set on the watch which I was, because the Daytona is the carrot on the stick like the GT cars for the best clients. It is a business. The clients that put the most food on the dealers table will be rewarded and that's the way it should be IMO.
Put yourself in a clients shoes who buys Panamera/Macan/Cayennes over a long period of time, or buys some Porsches at MSRP occasionally with no questions asked even though he sees others next to him paying under MSRP. How do you think you would feel if you saw someone who happens to be on some rumored list get the carrot on the stick (GT car) instead of you? If I was him or her, I would be taking my business elsewhere as the point is it's supposed to be a mutually beneficial relationship, *not* one-sided.
I would have paid an ADM either way, for both my watch and my car. And I understand why I didn't get a GT car at MSRP or even an allocation from a dealer I've worked with but had to do business with a new dealer who had an allocation for sale for whatever reason.
I, and most of us I wager, will pay an ADM one way or another. The cold truth is that for those who are the "great/loyal clients" who have done a lot of business with the same dealership and didn't get the allocation you wanted at MSRP means there was either a bigger fish for the dealer to appease or, the dealer is willing to play with fire and burn his relationships (*if there was no bigger fish*) because he's greedy, wants more instant profit, and thinks he can get away with it. If you aren't a top client for a single dealership (like me as an example before the torches come), then the expectation that because you are on a list you are entitled to that MSRP allocation doesn't make much sense from a business/dealer standpoint. The GT cars are the carrot on the stick, at the end of the day it's a business, a business to make money, not a business to sell as many GT cars to be tracked as possible for what it's worth.
Just my 2 cents as someone who was initially on 6 lists, one with a dealer I had bought more than 3 P-cars from (at *under* MSRP), and ended up paying an ADM and happy to do so. The dealers that operate their GT sales *solely* as a function of "the list" is honorable, but seems rare if true, and they risk actually burning the clients that mean most to them in other words give them the most $$$$.
The GT car, like the Nautilus, Ceramic Daytona, AP 39mm etc, is a carrot on a stick for dealers to reward their best and most loyal customers. Why else would a client agree to pay MSRP no questions asked without negotiating at all, or buy a fleet of Porsches from the same dealer, unless he or she knows that they will be a good customer in the eyes of the dealer and form a *mutually beneficial* business relationship. The customer buys cars that is hard for the dealer to sell, or buys multiple cars over a period of time to move inventory, or pays MSRP straight up on cars that sell for under MSRP. And in return, the client gets rewarded because he's made the dealership money and helped the dealership *operate their business* with that 1) elusive GT allocation and 2) most likely at MSRP.
If you didn't get that GT allocation at MSRP, the higher up you go .2 GT3, .2 3RS, .2 2RS, I bet that there was a client that did more for the dealership than you and that's why the allocation went the way it did. Unless you got it in writing that you are putting a deposit down to be "X" on the list and that the dealer would abide by the terms and by the list to dole the allocations out solely by said list, I think the list is BS and just something for the dealers to have in the event that this preferred client does not want the car, then they work their way down that list for the easy sale versus having to market the allocation and deal with the tire kickers left and right.
This is why I came to be at peace with my ADM on my measly .2 GT3 and it is everything I had hoped for my first GT car and more.
People, *including myself* (I don't like to throw stones when my house is made of glass), feel entitled to an allocation, and on top of that at MSRP, but fail to realize there is a bigger fish likely doing more for the dealership 9 times out of 10 which makes sense. That 10 out 10 situation with the owner getting a car or owners son, or a RLer getting an allocation at MSRP without an extensive purchase history or buying Macans/Cayenne/Panny @ MSRP no questions asked, is the outlier/rare case I would guess.
Same thing with my Rolex SS Daytona. I paid an "ADM" from my jeweler and got this watch that I cannot take off my wrist (it's the best watch I've ever owned), and I did it without buying non-desirable models at $8-9k a piece minimum, or without buying the precious metal models at $25k a piece minimum, and spent "just" $5k extra. It actually saved me money to pay the ADM if I was set on the watch which I was, because the Daytona is the carrot on the stick like the GT cars for the best clients. It is a business. The clients that put the most food on the dealers table will be rewarded and that's the way it should be IMO.
Put yourself in a clients shoes who buys Panamera/Macan/Cayennes over a long period of time, or buys some Porsches at MSRP occasionally with no questions asked even though he sees others next to him paying under MSRP. How do you think you would feel if you saw someone who happens to be on some rumored list get the carrot on the stick (GT car) instead of you? If I was him or her, I would be taking my business elsewhere as the point is it's supposed to be a mutually beneficial relationship, *not* one-sided.
I would have paid an ADM either way, for both my watch and my car. And I understand why I didn't get a GT car at MSRP or even an allocation from a dealer I've worked with but had to do business with a new dealer who had an allocation for sale for whatever reason.
I, and most of us I wager, will pay an ADM one way or another. The cold truth is that for those who are the "great/loyal clients" who have done a lot of business with the same dealership and didn't get the allocation you wanted at MSRP means there was either a bigger fish for the dealer to appease or, the dealer is willing to play with fire and burn his relationships (*if there was no bigger fish*) because he's greedy, wants more instant profit, and thinks he can get away with it. If you aren't a top client for a single dealership (like me as an example before the torches come), then the expectation that because you are on a list you are entitled to that MSRP allocation doesn't make much sense from a business/dealer standpoint. The GT cars are the carrot on the stick, at the end of the day it's a business, a business to make money, not a business to sell as many GT cars to be tracked as possible for what it's worth.
Just my 2 cents as someone who was initially on 6 lists, one with a dealer I had bought more than 3 P-cars from (at *under* MSRP), and ended up paying an ADM and happy to do so. The dealers that operate their GT sales *solely* as a function of "the list" is honorable, but seems rare if true, and they risk actually burning the clients that mean most to them in other words give them the most $$$$.
04-06-2018, 04:38 AM
#109
Rennlist Member
Tension in here.
Clear. Because we are so in love with something that is not easy to get.
We should buy other stuff. But change is also not easy for many people.
Don´t hate dealers. Everyone of us is in a business. If i would sell a tractor or combine - and know to hand over with the key also 200k in cash - i would feel strange. Who deserves this money?
And this money is there / its real. Doesn´t matter if it is as value in your garage, if you flip it, or if you drive the sh*t out of it and make 100k over out of the previous 200k over value.
The 200k are there. Are real.
Led penals, houses, food, sneakers, watches, phones, services, dental appointments, ... tell your personal strategy to handle those "200.000,- USD presents".
i don´t have one.
i don´t feel agressive or sad. it is as it is with the current economy.
when i look ahead - what could happen the next two years with the ww economy.... since 10 years it is getting better and better. more crazy...
i don´t belive in the limited production statement anymore. i think P is doing it intentional / on purpose. and i think for the brand it is the best. even with those heavy collateral damge as we can read in here.
US is the craziest market of all.
in EU you can buy 1000miles .1 cars below MSRP.
18x .2GT3RS are "official" on the market for around 30k ADM (when you call and pay - you will get them for 20k)
imagine what will happen as soon the first 300 .2GT3RS will be delivered. another 50 .2GT3RS will be on sale. and another 200 .1GT3RS.
everybody can buy easy cheesy a .1GT3RS - and can drive with extended warranty the sh*t out of it.
everyone who cry´s that all the dealer are BS, the flippers are BS, and we are the poor guys - is not 100% fair with himself. there are super solutions for everyone everywhere.
situation is not easy. i think P handels it best - for themself (not for us at the moment) - i mean for P in total - looking at it on a 5 years span.
Clear. Because we are so in love with something that is not easy to get.
We should buy other stuff. But change is also not easy for many people.
Don´t hate dealers. Everyone of us is in a business. If i would sell a tractor or combine - and know to hand over with the key also 200k in cash - i would feel strange. Who deserves this money?
And this money is there / its real. Doesn´t matter if it is as value in your garage, if you flip it, or if you drive the sh*t out of it and make 100k over out of the previous 200k over value.
The 200k are there. Are real.
Led penals, houses, food, sneakers, watches, phones, services, dental appointments, ... tell your personal strategy to handle those "200.000,- USD presents".
i don´t have one.
i don´t feel agressive or sad. it is as it is with the current economy.
when i look ahead - what could happen the next two years with the ww economy.... since 10 years it is getting better and better. more crazy...
i don´t belive in the limited production statement anymore. i think P is doing it intentional / on purpose. and i think for the brand it is the best. even with those heavy collateral damge as we can read in here.
US is the craziest market of all.
in EU you can buy 1000miles .1 cars below MSRP.
18x .2GT3RS are "official" on the market for around 30k ADM (when you call and pay - you will get them for 20k)
imagine what will happen as soon the first 300 .2GT3RS will be delivered. another 50 .2GT3RS will be on sale. and another 200 .1GT3RS.
everybody can buy easy cheesy a .1GT3RS - and can drive with extended warranty the sh*t out of it.
everyone who cry´s that all the dealer are BS, the flippers are BS, and we are the poor guys - is not 100% fair with himself. there are super solutions for everyone everywhere.
situation is not easy. i think P handels it best - for themself (not for us at the moment) - i mean for P in total - looking at it on a 5 years span.
04-06-2018, 04:59 AM
#110
Rennlist Member
Interesting thread. I agree with Soulsea, ChadW and others that it's easy to complain and bash the ADM game but you cannot have it both ways. I negotiated down to the last penny I could under MSRP on every Porsche I've bought (as well as for family since I actually like going into dealerships, viewing the beautiful cars, rolling up my sleeves, and driving a hard bargain). 4 Cayenne Turbos since original was released and every generation of 911 since the 996. Unfortunately, because I shopped for the best prices and who would offer the best discount (among other factors like who had the car with the spec we wanted on the lot), I didn't build up a relationship with a specific dealer other than our local dealer for servicing the cars. That being said, we got under MSRP *on every Porsche we've bought*, all brand new. I'm not saying this to toot my horn than I'm wealthy and we've owned a whole bunch of Porsches, but for the fact that it goes both ways. I got under MSRP and as a whole, I saved a hell of a lot more money than the ADM I had to pay for my GT3 allocation. At first I felt entitled and I was upset that I had to pay an ADM, but I realized *most, not all of us* pay an ADM one way or another.
The GT car, like the Nautilus, Ceramic Daytona, AP 39mm etc, is a carrot on a stick for dealers to reward their best and most loyal customers. Why else would a client agree to pay MSRP no questions asked without negotiating at all, or buy a fleet of Porsches from the same dealer, unless he or she knows that they will be a good customer in the eyes of the dealer and form a *mutually beneficial* business relationship. The customer buys cars that is hard for the dealer to sell, or buys multiple cars over a period of time to move inventory, or pays MSRP straight up on cars that sell for under MSRP. And in return, the client gets rewarded because he's made the dealership money and helped the dealership *operate their business* with that 1) elusive GT allocation and 2) most likely at MSRP.
If you didn't get that GT allocation at MSRP, the higher up you go .2 GT3, .2 3RS, .2 2RS, I bet that there was a client that did more for the dealership than you and that's why the allocation went the way it did. Unless you got it in writing that you are putting a deposit down to be "X" on the list and that the dealer would abide by the terms and by the list to dole the allocations out solely by said list, I think the list is BS and just something for the dealers to have in the event that this preferred client does not want the car, then they work their way down that list for the easy sale versus having to market the allocation and deal with the tire kickers left and right.
This is why I came to be at peace with my ADM on my measly .2 GT3 and it is everything I had hoped for my first GT car and more.
People, *including myself* (I don't like to throw stones when my house is made of glass), feel entitled to an allocation, and on top of that at MSRP, but fail to realize there is a bigger fish likely doing more for the dealership 9 times out of 10 which makes sense. That 10 out 10 situation with the owner getting a car or owners son, or a RLer getting an allocation at MSRP without an extensive purchase history or buying Macans/Cayenne/Panny @ MSRP no questions asked, is the outlier/rare case I would guess.
Same thing with my Rolex SS Daytona. I paid an "ADM" from my jeweler and got this watch that I cannot take off my wrist (it's the best watch I've ever owned), and I did it without buying non-desirable models at $8-9k a piece minimum, or without buying the precious metal models at $25k a piece minimum, and spent "just" $5k extra. It actually saved me money to pay the ADM if I was set on the watch which I was, because the Daytona is the carrot on the stick like the GT cars for the best clients. It is a business. The clients that put the most food on the dealers table will be rewarded and that's the way it should be IMO.
Put yourself in a clients shoes who buys Panamera/Macan/Cayennes over a long period of time, or buys some Porsches at MSRP occasionally with no questions asked even though he sees others next to him paying under MSRP. How do you think you would feel if you saw someone who happens to be on some rumored list get the carrot on the stick (GT car) instead of you? If I was him or her, I would be taking my business elsewhere as the point is it's supposed to be a mutually beneficial relationship, *not* one-sided.
I would have paid an ADM either way, for both my watch and my car. And I understand why I didn't get a GT car at MSRP or even an allocation from a dealer I've worked with but had to do business with a new dealer who had an allocation for sale for whatever reason.
I, and most of us I wager, will pay an ADM one way or another. The cold truth is that for those who are the "great/loyal clients" who have done a lot of business with the same dealership and didn't get the allocation you wanted at MSRP means there was either a bigger fish for the dealer to appease or, the dealer is willing to play with fire and burn his relationships (*if there was no bigger fish*) because he's greedy, wants more instant profit, and thinks he can get away with it. If you aren't a top client for a single dealership (like me as an example before the torches come), then the expectation that because you are on a list you are entitled to that MSRP allocation doesn't make much sense from a business/dealer standpoint. The GT cars are the carrot on the stick, at the end of the day it's a business, a business to make money, not a business to sell as many GT cars to be tracked as possible for what it's worth.
Just my 2 cents as someone who was initially on 6 lists, one with a dealer I had bought more than 3 P-cars from (at *under* MSRP), and ended up paying an ADM and happy to do so. The dealers that operate their GT sales *solely* as a function of "the list" is honorable, but seems rare if true, and they risk actually burning the clients that mean most to them in other words give them the most $$$$.
The GT car, like the Nautilus, Ceramic Daytona, AP 39mm etc, is a carrot on a stick for dealers to reward their best and most loyal customers. Why else would a client agree to pay MSRP no questions asked without negotiating at all, or buy a fleet of Porsches from the same dealer, unless he or she knows that they will be a good customer in the eyes of the dealer and form a *mutually beneficial* business relationship. The customer buys cars that is hard for the dealer to sell, or buys multiple cars over a period of time to move inventory, or pays MSRP straight up on cars that sell for under MSRP. And in return, the client gets rewarded because he's made the dealership money and helped the dealership *operate their business* with that 1) elusive GT allocation and 2) most likely at MSRP.
If you didn't get that GT allocation at MSRP, the higher up you go .2 GT3, .2 3RS, .2 2RS, I bet that there was a client that did more for the dealership than you and that's why the allocation went the way it did. Unless you got it in writing that you are putting a deposit down to be "X" on the list and that the dealer would abide by the terms and by the list to dole the allocations out solely by said list, I think the list is BS and just something for the dealers to have in the event that this preferred client does not want the car, then they work their way down that list for the easy sale versus having to market the allocation and deal with the tire kickers left and right.
This is why I came to be at peace with my ADM on my measly .2 GT3 and it is everything I had hoped for my first GT car and more.
People, *including myself* (I don't like to throw stones when my house is made of glass), feel entitled to an allocation, and on top of that at MSRP, but fail to realize there is a bigger fish likely doing more for the dealership 9 times out of 10 which makes sense. That 10 out 10 situation with the owner getting a car or owners son, or a RLer getting an allocation at MSRP without an extensive purchase history or buying Macans/Cayenne/Panny @ MSRP no questions asked, is the outlier/rare case I would guess.
Same thing with my Rolex SS Daytona. I paid an "ADM" from my jeweler and got this watch that I cannot take off my wrist (it's the best watch I've ever owned), and I did it without buying non-desirable models at $8-9k a piece minimum, or without buying the precious metal models at $25k a piece minimum, and spent "just" $5k extra. It actually saved me money to pay the ADM if I was set on the watch which I was, because the Daytona is the carrot on the stick like the GT cars for the best clients. It is a business. The clients that put the most food on the dealers table will be rewarded and that's the way it should be IMO.
Put yourself in a clients shoes who buys Panamera/Macan/Cayennes over a long period of time, or buys some Porsches at MSRP occasionally with no questions asked even though he sees others next to him paying under MSRP. How do you think you would feel if you saw someone who happens to be on some rumored list get the carrot on the stick (GT car) instead of you? If I was him or her, I would be taking my business elsewhere as the point is it's supposed to be a mutually beneficial relationship, *not* one-sided.
I would have paid an ADM either way, for both my watch and my car. And I understand why I didn't get a GT car at MSRP or even an allocation from a dealer I've worked with but had to do business with a new dealer who had an allocation for sale for whatever reason.
I, and most of us I wager, will pay an ADM one way or another. The cold truth is that for those who are the "great/loyal clients" who have done a lot of business with the same dealership and didn't get the allocation you wanted at MSRP means there was either a bigger fish for the dealer to appease or, the dealer is willing to play with fire and burn his relationships (*if there was no bigger fish*) because he's greedy, wants more instant profit, and thinks he can get away with it. If you aren't a top client for a single dealership (like me as an example before the torches come), then the expectation that because you are on a list you are entitled to that MSRP allocation doesn't make much sense from a business/dealer standpoint. The GT cars are the carrot on the stick, at the end of the day it's a business, a business to make money, not a business to sell as many GT cars to be tracked as possible for what it's worth.
Just my 2 cents as someone who was initially on 6 lists, one with a dealer I had bought more than 3 P-cars from (at *under* MSRP), and ended up paying an ADM and happy to do so. The dealers that operate their GT sales *solely* as a function of "the list" is honorable, but seems rare if true, and they risk actually burning the clients that mean most to them in other words give them the most $$$$.
04-06-2018, 05:00 AM
#111
Rennlist Member
This^ Plus what CJ said about the PDK opening up a whole bunch of drivers who couldn't drive a stick, coming in to this market. I have said this before but when I started we were all driving 993 Turbos and Andials. We had huge parties at the tracks. Or we would all drive up to the Bay area and have parties while everyone pitched in and helped put on better suspensions/sway bars on our cars and upping HP to create the better track monster or to see who had the most ***** coming out of turn 8 at Willow. Then the 996 GT3 came out and we still all met at the track and had weekends driving with each other and we had free instructors. People who got so good they would instruct for fun like Mooty. One year we banded together and sent a ton of money to a GT3 racer at Le Mans who needed some help.
Then the 997s came out with .1 and .2 RS and markups were huge and the buyers changed a bit. Even then a lot of us who had bought a lot of cars started get muscled out of PROMISED cars (sound familiar?) Dealers started hijinks even back then. Now look at this forum MOST GT3s wont ever go near a track. Look at the number of Paint to Sample threads. I had a friend say he wont buy a car unless its a PTS. Then I saw what I never thought I would see in a drivers forum. Someone was asking what kind of lighting system to get so the headlight ring color will match his wheels and seat belts color. I quickly zipped up to the top to see if I had mistakenly got onto a Ferrari or S Class forum. I almost forgot about the what CXX option do you like best?
So now most of these cars are going to cars and coffee and or air conditioned storage bubble. Some guys here have Ferrari disease and wont go above 1500 miles before selling. These cars are meant to wear the tires out lap after lap at what ever track is closest or the back country twisties. They are just DD hot rods to a lot of these guys. So the real drivers cant get one to go DRIVING. But its a free market and now these drivers cars are status symbols painted with some special color.
Where are the threads on "Do you change your oil between sessions" or "how do you carry your second set of wheels and tires to the track threads"? Who freaking cares what color the car is? I just want to hear the motor at 9,000 RPM.I remember when our cars were painted with blue painters tape and rubber tire boogers. The cars have become so good anyone can drive them and or buy them.
Then the 997s came out with .1 and .2 RS and markups were huge and the buyers changed a bit. Even then a lot of us who had bought a lot of cars started get muscled out of PROMISED cars (sound familiar?) Dealers started hijinks even back then. Now look at this forum MOST GT3s wont ever go near a track. Look at the number of Paint to Sample threads. I had a friend say he wont buy a car unless its a PTS. Then I saw what I never thought I would see in a drivers forum. Someone was asking what kind of lighting system to get so the headlight ring color will match his wheels and seat belts color. I quickly zipped up to the top to see if I had mistakenly got onto a Ferrari or S Class forum. I almost forgot about the what CXX option do you like best?
So now most of these cars are going to cars and coffee and or air conditioned storage bubble. Some guys here have Ferrari disease and wont go above 1500 miles before selling. These cars are meant to wear the tires out lap after lap at what ever track is closest or the back country twisties. They are just DD hot rods to a lot of these guys. So the real drivers cant get one to go DRIVING. But its a free market and now these drivers cars are status symbols painted with some special color.
Where are the threads on "Do you change your oil between sessions" or "how do you carry your second set of wheels and tires to the track threads"? Who freaking cares what color the car is? I just want to hear the motor at 9,000 RPM.I remember when our cars were painted with blue painters tape and rubber tire boogers. The cars have become so good anyone can drive them and or buy them.
04-06-2018, 05:28 AM
#112
Originally Posted by 996FLT6
How much adm for the Rolex ss ceramic Daytona from your dealer? Black or white face? Mike
I paid 5 over MSRP a year ago, so 17.5 brand new with my name on the warranty card and I peeled the stickers off myself. The ask is now 19.5 for black and 20.5 for white I believe for BNIB. I went black dial, prefer it to the more popular white.
PM me if you want my jeweler's info, I consider him one of the best. Be careful, it's a slippery slope
04-06-2018, 10:34 AM
#113
I make that post and THATS what you ask??? LOL just playing around
I paid 5 over MSRP a year ago, so 17.5 brand new with my name on the warranty card and I peeled the stickers off myself. The ask is now 19.5 for black and 20.5 for white I believe for BNIB. I went black dial, prefer it to the more popular white.
PM me if you want my jeweler's info, I consider him one of the best. Be careful, it's a slippery slope
I paid 5 over MSRP a year ago, so 17.5 brand new with my name on the warranty card and I peeled the stickers off myself. The ask is now 19.5 for black and 20.5 for white I believe for BNIB. I went black dial, prefer it to the more popular white.
PM me if you want my jeweler's info, I consider him one of the best. Be careful, it's a slippery slope
But can't believe people would pay more MSRP for blue skydweller. That is one ugly watch.
04-06-2018, 10:47 AM
#114
Platinum Dealership
Rennlist
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Rennlist
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We all want these cars and are pushed over the edge of reason sometimes by the implied value.
As Jo_ker, Soulsea, Chad, Joe all passionately argue, I can summarize what the best of your comments as a group entail:
1) these are good cars
2) transparency is not universal
3) some clients buy more cars or are more loyal
4) some luxury goods, are trading for over msrp regardless of tactics (Rolex, ADM, Ferrari model etc)
5) after a few thousand miles, they go back to msrp or below
6) as old guy says- DRIVE THE ***** OFF YOUR GT car, that's what it is for
7) there is no downside for buying a CPO GT3.1 or RS.1 now. NONE. It's still fast. This is of course assuming you want to drive it in a spirited manner.
8) you build value for yourself as a customer...if the dealer is scared to lose your portfolio, your referrals, your parts orders, your happy rennlist posts...
Joe- to be real: racing is its own drug. And also- the Tesla model helps nobody- not even Tesla. Because they don't have investor/dealers - they bear ALL THE OVERHEAD which is why they keep losing money every damn quarter every year. They are paying rent in super high retail locations. 90% of car companies would go out of business doing that and then TATA owns them after lengthy bankruptcy court and outbids Roger Penske and drives quality into the ground.
All: The reason why you guys like Porsche so much is the quality of the product. If at any point that quality or durability is compromised you will flock somewhere else.
GT cars are amazing. They are priced low enough that people can stretch up, or rich guys can afford to assemble collections.
Dealers (I am a dealer) want to do volume business. Porsche volume means more service and more GT allocations. I can register 100 V070's and if I (again as a dealer) do not deserve (based on my total volume) to get more than 7-8 cars that's all I get.
Big complaint I get is "this sucks why can't you get me a car" and I reply/ I don't have any. Which is only solved by selling more 911's which wins me more GT allocations. That's why dealers have been forced to try and invent a game or points credit (I keep track of referrals, CPO, Euro delivery etc) and some dealers just blatantly charge up for slots. They literally have dozens more people than cars available for GT cars.
As Jo_ker, Soulsea, Chad, Joe all passionately argue, I can summarize what the best of your comments as a group entail:
1) these are good cars
2) transparency is not universal
3) some clients buy more cars or are more loyal
4) some luxury goods, are trading for over msrp regardless of tactics (Rolex, ADM, Ferrari model etc)
5) after a few thousand miles, they go back to msrp or below
6) as old guy says- DRIVE THE ***** OFF YOUR GT car, that's what it is for
7) there is no downside for buying a CPO GT3.1 or RS.1 now. NONE. It's still fast. This is of course assuming you want to drive it in a spirited manner.
8) you build value for yourself as a customer...if the dealer is scared to lose your portfolio, your referrals, your parts orders, your happy rennlist posts...
Joe- to be real: racing is its own drug. And also- the Tesla model helps nobody- not even Tesla. Because they don't have investor/dealers - they bear ALL THE OVERHEAD which is why they keep losing money every damn quarter every year. They are paying rent in super high retail locations. 90% of car companies would go out of business doing that and then TATA owns them after lengthy bankruptcy court and outbids Roger Penske and drives quality into the ground.
All: The reason why you guys like Porsche so much is the quality of the product. If at any point that quality or durability is compromised you will flock somewhere else.
GT cars are amazing. They are priced low enough that people can stretch up, or rich guys can afford to assemble collections.
Dealers (I am a dealer) want to do volume business. Porsche volume means more service and more GT allocations. I can register 100 V070's and if I (again as a dealer) do not deserve (based on my total volume) to get more than 7-8 cars that's all I get.
Big complaint I get is "this sucks why can't you get me a car" and I reply/ I don't have any. Which is only solved by selling more 911's which wins me more GT allocations. That's why dealers have been forced to try and invent a game or points credit (I keep track of referrals, CPO, Euro delivery etc) and some dealers just blatantly charge up for slots. They literally have dozens more people than cars available for GT cars.
04-06-2018, 11:28 AM
#115
Rennlist Member
Pretty sure a lot of this ramped up even more post VIP/911r frenzy...it used to be that when you were happy with your GT car, you'd actually maybe pass on the next one because you were still loving tracking a car that you likely did quite a few safety mods to that rarely show up in the new cars anymore (When we had 996/997 gt cars...how many of us changed the suspensions, put rollbars and track seats in (996 buckets never really cut it), did full exhausts etc etc). Now it's basically people who don't put any investment into the cars and wouldn't dare risk not trying to get the next one for fear of their place being taken by someone else. It is what it is in the end. It's still somewhat shocking how much money over people are willing to spend on non limited cars that are largely unusable on any real road (and rarely useable to their full extent on a track either given many of the owners), have to give credit to Porsche for having so many people drop their interest in the other brands and have them seemingly full on shift into Porsche.
04-06-2018, 11:28 AM
#116
Rennlist Member
CAN NOT JUST INCREASE PRODUCTION
Agreed, and Porsche could solve that very easily by either expanding the factory or building a new one.
The fact that they haven't is an indication to me that this is exactly how they want the market to be, counting on the hype and demand of the GT models to trickle down to their other products. I'm guessing that despite how frustrated all of us are by this system, it must be working for them. But it's obvious that many people are walking away from the brand, customers that they will sorely miss when times are leaner, for people don't forget how they get treated by a company, and rightfully so.
The fact that they haven't is an indication to me that this is exactly how they want the market to be, counting on the hype and demand of the GT models to trickle down to their other products. I'm guessing that despite how frustrated all of us are by this system, it must be working for them. But it's obvious that many people are walking away from the brand, customers that they will sorely miss when times are leaner, for people don't forget how they get treated by a company, and rightfully so.
But Gov't regulating agencies have introduced other hurdles that limit GT production besides supply and demand.
One of these is CAFE which relates because the GT cars are Gas Guzzlers. Porsche bean counters are constantly averaging up all the years car sales by their MPG rating,summing all together. Should Porsche's average violate the Corporate Average Fuel Economy limits then Huge fines are due.
Look at how massive these fines are AND they are back calculated based on every car sold that year. There is a very large incentive
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corpor...e_fuel_economy
" If the average fuel economy of a manufacturer's annual fleet of vehicle production falls below the applicable requirement, the manufacturer must either apply sufficient CAFE credits (see below) to cover the shortfall or pay a penalty, currently $5.50 per 0.1 mpg under the standard, multiplied by the manufacturer's total production for the U.S. domestic market. "
Using 2016 numbers and a mis rate of 1 MPG, I calculate a fine to Porsche of well over $13M
https://newsroom.porsche.com/en/comp...ord-13310.html
04-06-2018, 11:31 AM
#117
Rennlist Member
Pretty sure a lot of this ramped up even more post VIP/911r frenzy...it used to be that when you were happy with your GT car, you'd actually maybe pass on the next one because you were still loving tracking a car that you likely did quite a few safety mods to that rarely show up in the new cars anymore (When we had 996/997 gt cars...how many of us changed the suspensions, put rollbars and track seats in (996 buckets never really cut it), did full exhausts etc etc). Now it's basically people who don't put any investment into the cars and wouldn't dare risk not trying to get the next one for fear of their place being taken by someone else. It is what it is in the end. It's still somewhat shocking how much money over people are willing to spend on non limited cars that are largely unusable on any real road (and rarely useable to their full extent on a track either given many of the owners), have to give credit to Porsche for having so many people drop their interest in the other marks and have them seemingly full on shift into Porsche.
Look at how many 3-4 month old cars are coming to market. The buyer's goal was very clear
04-06-2018, 11:38 AM
#118
Nordschleife Master
to oldguyJoe- to be real: racing is its own drug. And also- the Tesla model helps nobody- not even Tesla. Because they don't have investor/dealers - they bear ALL THE OVERHEAD which is why they keep losing money every damn quarter every year. They are paying rent in super high retail locations. 90% of car companies would go out of business doing that and then TATA owns them after lengthy bankruptcy court and outbids Roger Penske and drives quality into the ground.
Yup, racing is a totally different drug on a different plane for sure.
With all due respect, in regards to the Tesla model, I will disagree with you. I don't think Tesla loses money only because of it's sales model. They lose money because of many other things. Making cars that aren't very good with an expensive (and not very good) manufacturing process being one of them.
There is a reason Porsche itself tried to launch their own dealers years ago. They recognized the many problems brought on by the dealership model. NADA fought back hard and won because they were fighting for their livelihood, not the consumer.
While there are exceptions, the car buying process as a whole is not good. There are solutions, but the traditional way of doing things has been successful for the dealers and they don't want to change that. I don't blame the dealers for protecting themselves, but I have problems when they start fabricating laws to protect themselves while driving out competition/innovation.
To those that insist that dealers 'must' gouge because it's just 'business' and they shouldn't leave money on the table:
Please explain to me why good guy dealers like Fresno and Marin/Sonnen are completely transparent and sell at MSRP. Are you telling me they are fools? Are you telling me they are going to go under? I'm pretty sure their model works well for them. They have good reasons for doing what they do. They are thinking about the long term rather than short term greed.
Last edited by orthojoe; 04-06-2018 at 12:16 PM.
04-06-2018, 11:55 AM
#119
Race Director
Originally Posted by jo_ker
Tension in here.
Clear. Because we are so in love with something that is not easy to get.
We should buy other stuff. But change is also not easy for many people.
Don´t hate dealers. Everyone of us is in a business. If i would sell a tractor or combine - and know to hand over with the key also 200k in cash - i would feel strange. Who deserves this money?
And this money is there / its real. Doesn´t matter if it is as value in your garage, if you flip it, or if you drive the sh*t out of it and make 100k over out of the previous 200k over value.
The 200k are there. Are real.
Led penals, houses, food, sneakers, watches, phones, services, dental appointments, ... tell your personal strategy to handle those "200.000,- USD presents".
i don´t have one.
i don´t feel agressive or sad. it is as it is with the current economy.
when i look ahead - what could happen the next two years with the ww economy.... since 10 years it is getting better and better. more crazy...
i don´t belive in the limited production statement anymore. i think P is doing it intentional / on purpose. and i think for the brand it is the best. even with those heavy collateral damge as we can read in here.
US is the craziest market of all.
in EU you can buy 1000miles .1 cars below MSRP.
18x .2GT3RS are "official" on the market for around 30k ADM (when you call and pay - you will get them for 20k)
imagine what will happen as soon the first 300 .2GT3RS will be delivered. another 50 .2GT3RS will be on sale. and another 200 .1GT3RS.
everybody can buy easy cheesy a .1GT3RS - and can drive with extended warranty the sh*t out of it.
everyone who cry´s that all the dealer are BS, the flippers are BS, and we are the poor guys - is not 100% fair with himself. there are super solutions for everyone everywhere.
situation is not easy. i think P handels it best - for themself (not for us at the moment) - i mean for P in total - looking at it on a 5 years span.
Clear. Because we are so in love with something that is not easy to get.
We should buy other stuff. But change is also not easy for many people.
Don´t hate dealers. Everyone of us is in a business. If i would sell a tractor or combine - and know to hand over with the key also 200k in cash - i would feel strange. Who deserves this money?
And this money is there / its real. Doesn´t matter if it is as value in your garage, if you flip it, or if you drive the sh*t out of it and make 100k over out of the previous 200k over value.
The 200k are there. Are real.
Led penals, houses, food, sneakers, watches, phones, services, dental appointments, ... tell your personal strategy to handle those "200.000,- USD presents".
i don´t have one.
i don´t feel agressive or sad. it is as it is with the current economy.
when i look ahead - what could happen the next two years with the ww economy.... since 10 years it is getting better and better. more crazy...
i don´t belive in the limited production statement anymore. i think P is doing it intentional / on purpose. and i think for the brand it is the best. even with those heavy collateral damge as we can read in here.
US is the craziest market of all.
in EU you can buy 1000miles .1 cars below MSRP.
18x .2GT3RS are "official" on the market for around 30k ADM (when you call and pay - you will get them for 20k)
imagine what will happen as soon the first 300 .2GT3RS will be delivered. another 50 .2GT3RS will be on sale. and another 200 .1GT3RS.
everybody can buy easy cheesy a .1GT3RS - and can drive with extended warranty the sh*t out of it.
everyone who cry´s that all the dealer are BS, the flippers are BS, and we are the poor guys - is not 100% fair with himself. there are super solutions for everyone everywhere.
situation is not easy. i think P handels it best - for themself (not for us at the moment) - i mean for P in total - looking at it on a 5 years span.
04-06-2018, 12:08 PM
#120
I appreciate all the perspectives and think all the pertinent points have been well made. Exciting thread and hopefully fun and helpful for most.
Wherever you land on supply and demand and which group should enjoy increased market values in the short term, it’s all good. We get to enjoy Porsches!
Wherever you land on supply and demand and which group should enjoy increased market values in the short term, it’s all good. We get to enjoy Porsches!