2018 Rolex 24 from bad to worse
01-29-2018, 05:46 PM
#76
Drifting
The variance in approach (NA vs turbo) is not the important part. The variance is in the driveability, power band, and fuel economy that the cars can produce. A Corvette engine of 5.5L can be of particular use. First, it's stupidly simple to make and work on. Second, it's cheap for them to rebuild (not that budget is of great concern). Third, when you cap the top end power, you can rebuild the rest of it so that it makes grunt right from idle. Go ask Katech (former builders of the Corvette engine) how much "unrestricted" horsepower one of those things can made. They'll either not answer the question or say "not a whole lot more than it did with the restrictor because the engine's built around the restrictor". If Porsche's got a 4.5L flat 6 hiding someplace that they can use, that'd be helpful. Otherwise, using an engine that's got roughly the same displacement as their current engine is going to require forced induction.
To take this a bit further, someone posted in one of the other forums that the top speed of the 911 was roughly that of the other cars. That said, terminal velocity isn't the end game, it's just part of the equation. It matters how quickly you reach terminal velocity and when the Fords are slipperier and the Vettes and Ferraris jump out of the corners, that means even a factory shoe like Tandy has to be driving at 10/10's all the time to keep pace. The other thing to consider is that with the other cars in the class having such a torque advantage over the RSRs, the BOP has to think outside the box to appropriately balance the Porsche. Essentially, all other things considered, they would need to be open-minded enough to say "We're willing to give Porsche a higher top speed at the end of the straightaway because they're slower to get to terminal velocity." That takes a leap of faith on their part and the understanding of the other teams (good luck with that) before there's a good deal of complaining. If Porsche had a similar powerband to the other cars, it would be easier for the BOP to "get it right" and not essentially exclude or favor Porsche.
Porsche said they wanted to go the NA route because the BOP was going to get it right. Turbos add weight and complexity. If you can race a NA motor, it's better because there's less that can go wrong and you get the same performance through BOP. Torque is the extra bullet in your gun and I don't think that the BOP "got it right" yesterday.
To take this a bit further, someone posted in one of the other forums that the top speed of the 911 was roughly that of the other cars. That said, terminal velocity isn't the end game, it's just part of the equation. It matters how quickly you reach terminal velocity and when the Fords are slipperier and the Vettes and Ferraris jump out of the corners, that means even a factory shoe like Tandy has to be driving at 10/10's all the time to keep pace. The other thing to consider is that with the other cars in the class having such a torque advantage over the RSRs, the BOP has to think outside the box to appropriately balance the Porsche. Essentially, all other things considered, they would need to be open-minded enough to say "We're willing to give Porsche a higher top speed at the end of the straightaway because they're slower to get to terminal velocity." That takes a leap of faith on their part and the understanding of the other teams (good luck with that) before there's a good deal of complaining. If Porsche had a similar powerband to the other cars, it would be easier for the BOP to "get it right" and not essentially exclude or favor Porsche.
Porsche said they wanted to go the NA route because the BOP was going to get it right. Turbos add weight and complexity. If you can race a NA motor, it's better because there's less that can go wrong and you get the same performance through BOP. Torque is the extra bullet in your gun and I don't think that the BOP "got it right" yesterday.
01-29-2018, 05:57 PM
#77
IMSA - Still driven by analytics - series-mandated scrutineering loggers, improved analytic programs, updated after each race - lobbying next to impossible
FYI
01-29-2018, 06:12 PM
#78
Nordschleife Master
Thread Starter
I don't think its the aero that is making the major difference. The RSR is pretty slippery. It's a TT 3.5 vs. an NA 4.0. Clearly BOP didn't get it right for Daytona.
I think IMSA should just set the max specs allowed as to weight and power and let the manufacturers field their best car that fits the rules rather then dealing with mulitiple cars of various weights, power etc...It's like herding a bunch of cats.
Maybe IMSA should allow rear wheel steering for the RSR since the FGT has the power advantage.
I think IMSA should just set the max specs allowed as to weight and power and let the manufacturers field their best car that fits the rules rather then dealing with mulitiple cars of various weights, power etc...It's like herding a bunch of cats.
Maybe IMSA should allow rear wheel steering for the RSR since the FGT has the power advantage.
01-29-2018, 06:30 PM
#79
Nordschleife Master
Thread Starter
Dave: Thanks for informative post. Based on your experience and knowledge do you believe the RSR will be competitive this year and at LeMans?
Do you believe the Wright GTD team will be competitive with the GT3R?
Do you believe the Wright GTD team will be competitive with the GT3R?
Last edited by Waxer; 01-29-2018 at 07:07 PM.
01-29-2018, 07:21 PM
#80
Drifting
The variance in approach (NA vs turbo) is not the important part. The variance is in the driveability, power band, and fuel economy that the cars can produce. A Corvette engine of 5.5L can be of particular use. First, it's stupidly simple to make and work on. Second, it's cheap for them to rebuild (not that budget is of great concern). Third, when you cap the top end power, you can rebuild the rest of it so that it makes grunt right from idle. Go ask Katech (former builders of the Corvette engine) how much "unrestricted" horsepower one of those things can made. They'll either not answer the question or say "not a whole lot more than it did with the restrictor because the engine's built around the restrictor". If Porsche's got a 4.5L flat 6 hiding someplace that they can use, that'd be helpful. Otherwise, using an engine that's got roughly the same displacement as their current engine is going to require forced induction.
To take this a bit further, someone posted in one of the other forums that the top speed of the 911 was roughly that of the other cars. That said, terminal velocity isn't the end game, it's just part of the equation. It matters how quickly you reach terminal velocity and when the Fords are slipperier and the Vettes and Ferraris jump out of the corners, that means even a factory shoe like Tandy has to be driving at 10/10's all the time to keep pace. The other thing to consider is that with the other cars in the class having such a torque advantage over the RSRs, the BOP has to think outside the box to appropriately balance the Porsche. Essentially, all other things considered, they would need to be open-minded enough to say "We're willing to give Porsche a higher top speed at the end of the straightaway because they're slower to get to terminal velocity." That takes a leap of faith on their part and the understanding of the other teams (good luck with that) before there's a good deal of complaining. If Porsche had a similar powerband to the other cars, it would be easier for the BOP to "get it right" and not essentially exclude or favor Porsche.
Porsche said they wanted to go the NA route because the BOP was going to get it right. Turbos add weight and complexity. If you can race a NA motor, it's better because there's less that can go wrong and you get the same performance through BOP. Torque is the extra bullet in your gun and I don't think that the BOP "got it right" yesterday.
To take this a bit further, someone posted in one of the other forums that the top speed of the 911 was roughly that of the other cars. That said, terminal velocity isn't the end game, it's just part of the equation. It matters how quickly you reach terminal velocity and when the Fords are slipperier and the Vettes and Ferraris jump out of the corners, that means even a factory shoe like Tandy has to be driving at 10/10's all the time to keep pace. The other thing to consider is that with the other cars in the class having such a torque advantage over the RSRs, the BOP has to think outside the box to appropriately balance the Porsche. Essentially, all other things considered, they would need to be open-minded enough to say "We're willing to give Porsche a higher top speed at the end of the straightaway because they're slower to get to terminal velocity." That takes a leap of faith on their part and the understanding of the other teams (good luck with that) before there's a good deal of complaining. If Porsche had a similar powerband to the other cars, it would be easier for the BOP to "get it right" and not essentially exclude or favor Porsche.
Porsche said they wanted to go the NA route because the BOP was going to get it right. Turbos add weight and complexity. If you can race a NA motor, it's better because there's less that can go wrong and you get the same performance through BOP. Torque is the extra bullet in your gun and I don't think that the BOP "got it right" yesterday.
Porsche wants to race a car that is (or at least somewhat resembles) a 911, just like every other manufacturer wants to race cars that are representative of what they build and sell (hence BOP to prevent spiraling budgets in a non-spec series). Ford is somewhat an exception since Ford is neither a premium brand nor a sports car manufacturer; furthermore, the Ford GT is a kit car built in a shed in Canada that has a Ford engine. Porsche could do the same thing but they want to race a 911.
Frank needs to go whine to Dagys and Pruett and Goodwin about how the Porsche board will pull the plug on GTE / GTLM if the series don't stop making it too hard for the RSR to compete, blah blah. Jens Marquardt is doing the same **** right now for BMW - whining about BOP. That's part of the job.
I don't think its the aero that is making the major difference. The RSR is pretty slippery. It's a TT 3.5 vs. an NA 4.0. Clearly BOP didn't get it right for Daytona.
I think IMSA should just set the max specs allowed as to weight and power and let the manufacturers field their best car that fits the rules rather then dealing with mulitiple cars of various weights, power etc...It's like herding a bunch of cats.
Maybe IMSA should allow rear wheel steering for the RSR since the FGT has the power advantage.
I think IMSA should just set the max specs allowed as to weight and power and let the manufacturers field their best car that fits the rules rather then dealing with mulitiple cars of various weights, power etc...It's like herding a bunch of cats.
Maybe IMSA should allow rear wheel steering for the RSR since the FGT has the power advantage.
Think about this - Compare the 911 RSR to the 911 GT3 R. Both make similar amounts of power and torque (4.0 flat six) and similar amounts of downforce. The RSR has a wing and a diffuser, whereas the GT3 R only has a HUGE wing. The RSR is more aerodynamically efficient, and it walks away from the GTD class cars in a straight line because it's less draggy (and admittedly carries a higher exit speed from the prior corner).
GTE / GTLM class cars actually DO NOT offer many things that are found in street cars: ABS, traction control, stability control, rear wheel steering, active suspension, CC brakes, etc. The lack of driver aids is because the drivers are professionals, and the other stuff is to keep costs down.
The levers they pull for BOP are:
Usually:
Weight
Air restrictor size (NA) or turbo boost pressure (turbo)
Full tank size / flow rate
Lambda (air/fuel ratio; lower number = richer)
Not seen as often:
Minimum wing angle
Gearing
Wright GTD should absolutely be competitive - Pat is a factory driver and Christina is a defending GTD champion the last 2 years (she is a silver rated "amateur" on paper); the team is excellent and has done very well in PWC in recent years
01-29-2018, 07:48 PM
#81
Drifting
Porsche doesn't have a flat six with a swept volume greater than 4.0L. 4.0L is the displacement limit for turbo engines, whereas 5.5L is the limit for NA engines.
Porsche wants to race a car that is (or at least somewhat resembles) a 911, just like every other manufacturer wants to race cars that are representative of what they build and sell (hence BOP to prevent spiraling budgets in a non-spec series). Ford is somewhat an exception since Ford is neither a premium brand nor a sports car manufacturer; furthermore, the Ford GT is a kit car built in a shed in Canada that has a Ford engine. Porsche could do the same thing but they want to race a 911.
This is exactly what I'm talking about. WEC is entirely computerized (except LM!), there is zero human input. IMSA is reliant on data (DUH), but involves human discretion.
Frank needs to go whine to Dagys and Pruett and Goodwin about how the Porsche board will pull the plug on GTE / GTLM if the series don't stop making it too hard for the RSR to compete, blah blah. Jens Marquardt is doing the same **** right now for BMW - whining about BOP. That's part of the job.
Aero plays a major role. See how tall the FGT is vs. the other cars.
Think about this - Compare the 911 RSR to the 911 GT3 R. Both make similar amounts of power and torque (4.0 flat six) and similar amounts of downforce. The RSR has a wing and a diffuser, whereas the GT3 R only has a HUGE wing. The RSR is more aerodynamically efficient, and it walks away from the GTD class cars in a straight line because it's less draggy (and admittedly carries a higher exit speed from the prior corner).
GTE / GTLM class cars actually DO NOT offer many things that are found in street cars: ABS, traction control, stability control, rear wheel steering, active suspension, CC brakes, etc. The lack of driver aids is because the drivers are professionals, and the other stuff is to keep costs down.
The levers they pull for BOP are:
Usually:
Weight
Air restrictor size (NA) or turbo boost pressure (turbo)
Full tank size / flow rate
Lambda (air/fuel ratio; lower number = richer)
Not seen as often:
Minimum wing angle
Gearing
I don't think Porsche is taking 4 factory cars to be uncompetitive, frankly; who knows, maybe they intentionally sandbagged Daytona (and will do so at Sebring and WEC Spa) to get a favorable BOP at Le Mans?
Wright GTD should absolutely be competitive - Pat is a factory driver and Christina is a defending GTD champion the last 2 years (she is a silver rated "amateur" on paper); the team is excellent and has done very well in PWC in recent years
Porsche wants to race a car that is (or at least somewhat resembles) a 911, just like every other manufacturer wants to race cars that are representative of what they build and sell (hence BOP to prevent spiraling budgets in a non-spec series). Ford is somewhat an exception since Ford is neither a premium brand nor a sports car manufacturer; furthermore, the Ford GT is a kit car built in a shed in Canada that has a Ford engine. Porsche could do the same thing but they want to race a 911.
This is exactly what I'm talking about. WEC is entirely computerized (except LM!), there is zero human input. IMSA is reliant on data (DUH), but involves human discretion.
Frank needs to go whine to Dagys and Pruett and Goodwin about how the Porsche board will pull the plug on GTE / GTLM if the series don't stop making it too hard for the RSR to compete, blah blah. Jens Marquardt is doing the same **** right now for BMW - whining about BOP. That's part of the job.
Aero plays a major role. See how tall the FGT is vs. the other cars.
Think about this - Compare the 911 RSR to the 911 GT3 R. Both make similar amounts of power and torque (4.0 flat six) and similar amounts of downforce. The RSR has a wing and a diffuser, whereas the GT3 R only has a HUGE wing. The RSR is more aerodynamically efficient, and it walks away from the GTD class cars in a straight line because it's less draggy (and admittedly carries a higher exit speed from the prior corner).
GTE / GTLM class cars actually DO NOT offer many things that are found in street cars: ABS, traction control, stability control, rear wheel steering, active suspension, CC brakes, etc. The lack of driver aids is because the drivers are professionals, and the other stuff is to keep costs down.
The levers they pull for BOP are:
Usually:
Weight
Air restrictor size (NA) or turbo boost pressure (turbo)
Full tank size / flow rate
Lambda (air/fuel ratio; lower number = richer)
Not seen as often:
Minimum wing angle
Gearing
I don't think Porsche is taking 4 factory cars to be uncompetitive, frankly; who knows, maybe they intentionally sandbagged Daytona (and will do so at Sebring and WEC Spa) to get a favorable BOP at Le Mans?
Wright GTD should absolutely be competitive - Pat is a factory driver and Christina is a defending GTD champion the last 2 years (she is a silver rated "amateur" on paper); the team is excellent and has done very well in PWC in recent years
01-29-2018, 09:56 PM
#84
Racer
Join Date: Dec 2017
Location: 90 Miles East of Sonoma Raceway
Posts: 405
Received 35 Likes
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The Porsche results were disappointing but I'd rather see Ford up front than the other marques. The FGT is an amazing car. I'll get a chance to see them at Laguna Seca later this year.
01-29-2018, 10:01 PM
#85
They know how to build wonderful mid-engined cars and they know how to build fantastic turbo charged cars - 2+2 = ....
01-29-2018, 10:30 PM
#86
Race Car
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: The way to hell is paved by good intentions “Wenn ich Purist höre...entsichere ich meinen Browning” "Myths are fuel for marketing (and nowadays for flippers too,,,)" time to time is not sufficient to be a saint, you must be also an Hero
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I still can't "afford" the way GT2RS keep cool the engine ,
comical
01-29-2018, 11:21 PM
#87
Three Wheelin'
Folks for all the arguments, at the end of the day we can all lay it down at the feet of BOP. Maybe Porsche needs to hire more lobbyists rather than engineers. Interesting to note that in GTLM the European marques were all down.
After all the work the Porsche engineers did over the fall and winter, they were screwed when at the last minute BOP took away three liters of fuel. That reduction forced the Porsches’ to pit one lap earlier than had been anticipated. Multiply that over 24 hours and see what we all get.
After all the work the Porsche engineers did over the fall and winter, they were screwed when at the last minute BOP took away three liters of fuel. That reduction forced the Porsches’ to pit one lap earlier than had been anticipated. Multiply that over 24 hours and see what we all get.
01-29-2018, 11:38 PM
#89
You can parse this crap about BOP all you want, Corvette Racing did the same thing last year...get over it..The FGT is a better, faster car and Porsche in this configuration is never, ever beating them. Goodnight
01-29-2018, 11:44 PM
#90
Three Wheelin'