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Actually, Phase II of this build is now underway. Just ordered the full monoball package from Joey at E-motion. I like the design of his parts better than anybody else's. Decided to go all-in after seeing how the new RS benefits from full monoballs, especially the rear with it's ability to handle crazy-glue CUP2-R tires. Those are basically slicks, so Porsche clearly designed this car to handle that. I think the sphericals in the toe links is key, and will be worth the effort IMO. The car was already phenomenal on just TTX, can't wait to enjoy the additional precision and feel from the full moonball setup. Once that's done, if I'm still not fully satisfied, I'll pull the RWS and install some standard adjustable toe links. Next round of modifications are:
Front spring increase to 120 N/mm (~700#)
Front and Rear inner control arm monoballs - E-motion
Everything should be installed by mid to late next week, I'll post up pics and progress.
Not sure if I would change the front spring rates on the Ohlins from 100N/mm to 120N/mm in a 991.2 GT3. The reason Ohlins runs more front spring in the 991.2 GT2RS/GT3RS is that we have a 50% softer front anti-sway bar compared to the GT3.
The monoball parts are a game changer, this is where I have noticed the biggest difference between my 2016 and my 2019 GT3RS. The new engine didn't impress me too much, because my old engine with the Akrapovic headers was running stronger, brakes are about the same, PDK-S (in manual mode) about the same, but where the new car departs greatly is suspension, aero and weight.
Weight: with similar mods to my 2016 and 2019 GT3RS, my 991.2 is around 100 lbs lighter (it is a WP car but the weight difference is somewhere else), 3,121 lbs vs. 3,025 lbs on equal fuel load (4 gallons).
Aero: The front end sticks more at high speed than in the new car.
Suspension: proper stiffer spring rates (only available in the 991.2 GT3RS/GT2RS) and monoballs everywhere, this is the biggest improvement. I actually had to dial back static camber. In the 991.1, I ran -4.0 front -3.5 rear (Pirelli DH, Hoosier R7). In the 991.2 I started at those numbers and had to come back down, right now I'm square at -3.0 all around on the same wheels/tires, it took 6 alignments to get to these numbers. I like that the car uses less static camber, as it brakes and accelerates even better. I used to cord rear Hoosiers in 12 track sessions, somehow they are lasting longer in the 991.2 RS (have 15 sessions in one set with no cords showing yet). The RWS eats the rear tires, I'm not sold on this system, but can't remove it, it could save another 30 lbs from the back and make my tires last longer (and give me a magic sub-3000 lbs car with near 500whp).
I haven't driven NCM yet, and now that the SCCA is hosting the National Championship Time Trials at that place starting this year, I might spend some time up there this summer.
You didn't get those camber settings with stock parts did you? My shop could only get -1.8 on the front of my .2 GT3 before running out of threads. Oddly after a weekend at Road America tire wear looks pretty good which I didn't expect.
Not sure if I would change the front spring rates on the Ohlins from 100N/mm to 120N/mm in a 991.2 GT3. The reason Ohlins runs more front spring in the 991.2 GT2RS/GT3RS is that we have a 50% softer front anti-sway bar compared to the GT3.
The monoball parts are a game changer, this is where I have noticed the biggest difference between my 2016 and my 2019 GT3RS. The new engine didn't impress me too much, because my old engine with the Akrapovic headers was running stronger, brakes are about the same, PDK-S (in manual mode) about the same, but where the new car departs greatly is suspension, aero and weight.
Weight: with similar mods to my 2016 and 2019 GT3RS, my 991.2 is around 100 lbs lighter (it is a WP car but the weight difference is somewhere else), 3,121 lbs vs. 3,025 lbs on equal fuel load (4 gallons).
Aero: The front end sticks more at high speed than in the new car.
Suspension: proper stiffer spring rates (only available in the 991.2 GT3RS/GT2RS) and monoballs everywhere, this is the biggest improvement. I actually had to dial back static camber. In the 991.1, I ran -4.0 front -3.5 rear (Pirelli DH, Hoosier R7). In the 991.2 I started at those numbers and had to come back down, right now I'm square at -3.0 all around on the same wheels/tires, it took 6 alignments to get to these numbers. I like that the car uses less static camber, as it brakes and accelerates even better. I used to cord rear Hoosiers in 12 track sessions, somehow they are lasting longer in the 991.2 RS (have 15 sessions in one set with no cords showing yet). The RWS eats the rear tires, I'm not sold on this system, but can't remove it, it could save another 30 lbs from the back and make my tires last longer (and give me a magic sub-3000 lbs car with near 500whp).
I haven't driven NCM yet, and now that the SCCA is hosting the National Championship Time Trials at that place starting this year, I might spend some time up there this summer.
The .2 RS does has softer front sway bars, because of the higher OE spring rates (which is true). However, the TTX kit was first designed back when the .1 GT3/RS came out, when they both had the same sway bars/spring rates. This increased rate was simply more track focused (and to maximize the bigger 265 front tire) of the RS, the softer front rate was a bit better for more street use. They both use the same rear spring rate now (200 N/mm) with TTX. There are some old info out there when the rear used to be 160 N/mm, but Ohlins increased it after more testing/development, I've confirmed everything with PSI/Ohlins.
So there is a big split between F/R on non-RS TTX that can be reduced a bit more, for even better track performance. The increase of only 100# is going to be perfectly fine for the .2 GT3, especially since I have adjustability. I could just crank up compression now and effectively give the car more front spring rate, but I'd rather do it the right way. FYI - 991 Cup cars come standard with 240 N/mm (1370#) front, and 260 N/mm (1485#) rear rates.
Thanks for the insight, and agree on other items, I started at -3.5 and haven't touched the outside shoulder of my CUP2, but Pirelli DH wears seems almost spot on. I need more rear camber, at -2.7 ish, I planned to bump to -3 rear.
You should get to NCM, it's a proper challenging course. We have a time-attack event there in 3 weeks that I'm prepping the car for, and eyeing the SCCA TT as well, now that it's a thing. Had some 2:06's indicated but couldn't get it done either because of traffic or mistakes on 14 HC Pirelli DH takeoffs.....and the car was too loose for anything faster. With some better setup, 2:04-2:05's are possible (again on takeoff Pirelli DH), and my goal for the upcoming event. Sticker tires would certainly be WAY faster, but for my use, the takeoffs are plenty and the value play.
1. I'm now certain I don't like Ferodo DS1.11. They get into ABS too easily, because their torque curve is so flat, with no real friction rise with heat. Very grabby initial bite. This makes it hard to modulate and tricky on initial application. A lot of people like these because they do stop the car like hell and last long, but in terms of feel and initial bite, they just don't work with the 911 chassis as well as perhaps with a mid-engine or front engine, IMO. I have them on my M3, and they are easier to use on that chassis, as it doesn't require nearly as much trailbraking or finesse. I think the car would benefit from a pad more like the PFC08, with a rise in friction with heat. The DSUno offers that, but the friction level of that pad is so high, it too would easily overwhelm stock Cup2 rubber and get into ABS or ice mode. Even with Pirelli rubber, the DS1.11 grab ABS too easily. I wonder if re-programming the car for PCCB brakes ABS would help, as that's what 987.1 race cars do to increase the ABS threshold. Typically PCCB ABS programming is less intrusive due to the typical higher bite of that stock brake setup. Sadly, not much of a wide pad offering for the GT3. Wish PFC would offer their 12 compound for stock calipers, or if Friction One would offer their RS1 for front and rear. Pagid is great, but pads still seem to wear insanely fast and fall off once you get to 40-50% of pad thickness, and very fickle bedding process.
Just did my first track event with the new to me DS1.11s and I have to agree. Pretty sure I lost time in braking compared to the OEM pads which I did not suspect as I would engage ABS too quickly upon initial application. Not what I was expecting. I come from using PFC08s or Hawk DTC-60s on my E46 M3 and those are much easier to modulate.
Love your build so far however! I aspire to build something similar for my .1 GT3 over time. Oh, and where are you getting your 19" Pirelli DHs from? I have a hookup on used 488 challenge tires but their sizes are too large for a non-RS car, but 458 challenge sizes would be perfect.
The .2 RS does has softer front sway bars, because of the higher OE spring rates (which is true). However, the TTX kit was first designed back when the .1 GT3/RS came out, when they both had the same sway bars/spring rates. This increased rate was simply more track focused (and to maximize the bigger 265 front tire) of the RS, the softer front rate was a bit better for more street use. They both use the same rear spring rate now (200 N/mm) with TTX. There are some old info out there when the rear used to be 160 N/mm, but Ohlins increased it after more testing/development, I've confirmed everything with PSI/Ohlins.
So there is a big split between F/R on non-RS TTX that can be reduced a bit more, for even better track performance. The increase of only 100# is going to be perfectly fine for the .2 GT3, especially since I have adjustability. I could just crank up compression now and effectively give the car more front spring rate, but I'd rather do it the right way. FYI - 991 Cup cars come standard with 240 N/mm (1370#) front, and 260 N/mm (1485#) rear rates.
Thanks for the insight, and agree on other items, I started at -3.5 and haven't touched the outside shoulder of my CUP2, but Pirelli DH wears seems almost spot on. I need more rear camber, at -2.7 ish, I planned to bump to -3 rear.
You should get to NCM, it's a proper challenging course. We have a time-attack event there in 3 weeks that I'm prepping the car for, and eyeing the SCCA TT as well, now that it's a thing. Had some 2:06's indicated but couldn't get it done either because of traffic or mistakes on 14 HC Pirelli DH takeoffs.....and the car was too loose for anything faster. With some better setup, 2:04-2:05's are possible (again on takeoff Pirelli DH), and my goal for the upcoming event. Sticker tires would certainly be WAY faster, but for my use, the takeoffs are plenty and the value play.
Interesting enough, the stock 991.2 GT3RS/GT2RS split front/rear is 100/160Nmm. Ohlins goes to 120/200, but our rear axle is a multi-link setup with a motion ratio close to 0.7 whereas the front is nearly 1.0. It seems that as the spring packages get stiffer they tend to add more front spring (factoring the motion ratio) than rear. The 991 Touring (the one with a GT3 engine) and my old 2016 RS came at 45/120Nmm, same as the current 991.2 GT3 and old 991.1 GT3.
The GT2RS press car is running Cup2R with the rear bar on the softest setting, and the front one in the middle (factory setup is rear bar at full stiff). So, it seems that as more grip is being added, the front is being stiffened (or the rear being softened) to maintain balance.
I'll bring my Miata track car to get familiar with NCM, park it in some storage or maybe do a few rentals before I commit to DE-Cup the GT3 at NCM. The SCCA Nationals Time Trials stuff is coming soon, and I still need to send a few letters as they want to force full race car safety (Club Racing safety) if you run on stock 180TW tires or less. There are no 200TW tires that can handle the rear load in a 991 GT3 RS yet.
I love the NCM Grand layout, great combination of technical elements. Long tow from Florida, but looks so fun.
Interesting enough, the stock 991.2 GT3RS/GT2RS split front/rear is 100/160Nmm. Ohlins goes to 120/200, but our rear axle is a multi-link setup with a motion ratio close to 0.7 whereas the front is nearly 1.0. It seems that as the spring packages get stiffer they tend to add more front spring (factoring the motion ratio) than rear. The 991 Touring (the one with a GT3 engine) and my old 2016 RS came at 45/120Nmm, same as the current 991.2 GT3 and old 991.1 GT3.
The GT2RS press car is running Cup2R with the rear bar on the softest setting, and the front one in the middle (factory setup is rear bar at full stiff). So, it seems that as more grip is being added, the front is being stiffened (or the rear being softened) to maintain balance.
I'll bring my Miata track car to get familiar with NCM, park it in some storage or maybe do a few rentals before I commit to DE-Cup the GT3 at NCM. The SCCA Nationals Time Trials stuff is coming soon, and I still need to send a few letters as they want to force full race car safety (Club Racing safety) if you run on stock 180TW tires or less. There are no 200TW tires that can handle the rear load in a 991 GT3 RS yet.
I love the NCM Grand layout, great combination of technical elements. Long tow from Florida, but looks so fun.
Yep, I remember when I got my .2, but before the .2RS was launched, was looking at the Bilstein clubsport suspension, which shocker, also came with 80/160 N/mm spring rates for GT3, and 100/160 N/mm for RS, so they are doing the same thing as Ohlins in terms of RS front rate increase. No coincidence the OE RS rates ended up being the same....lol.
I also think the TTX using a lower internal pressure perhaps uses slightly higher rates than the high pressure monotubes (which relies on high pressure to a certain degree for the rebound control side), where the design of the TTX is a bit different (it has the same pressure on both compression and rebound) and affects what rates it uses to a degree. I have Billy Clubsports on my M3, and it rides considerably different than TTX. It's a great shock, and I love them but it feels much "firmer", not a bad thing, the TTX just has a more controlled, refined feel, hard to explain. I think this is why the OE RS rates are a bit less than the Ohlins setup.
Thanks for the info on the Press Car, I think 700# front, 1150# rear will be a better track setup. Currently with my bars on middle front, full stiff rear, the car is a bit too loose to chase after ultimate lap times. Perfect for DE stuff and having fun, but if I'm doing a TT, I'm either going to soften the rear, or see how the stiffer front spring works and maybe that will be all the additional stiffness up front needs. Seems like the Press car did a similar thing, and the results netted are pretty obvious. Track records everywhere!
Half the fun is the setup! Let me know when you make it up, I'll point you in the right direction for all the track-weekend necessities. We are there all the time for DE stuff anyway!!
And so it begins.....I think I'm more excited about the toe steer motor spherical inserts than anything. Quick shakedown this Friday, before a full event next weekend.
^^^Add the Panamera lower bolts that connect the rear LCA to the wheel carrier, you gain a little bit of clearance for 19" wheels. Suncoast has the bolts, it takes 5 minutes to swap them with the wheels off.
^^^Add the Panamera lower bolts that connect the rear LCA to the wheel carrier, you gain a little bit of clearance for 19" wheels. Suncoast has the bolts, it takes 5 minutes to swap them with the wheels off.
And so it begins.....I think I'm more excited about the toe steer motor spherical inserts than anything. Quick shakedown this Friday, before a full event next weekend.
Awesome! you need to take pictures all installed without wheels
Well, I had a chance to test the new suspension additions, and let me say, it was a game-changer. Just as the TTX provided a big performance leap, all these monoballs provided a similar leap in terms of precision and feel, allowing you to get more out of the tire and setup. I fully understand why the RS has all these, and understand the hype now. I couldn't be much happier with the car as it sits. The monoball toe inserts make a fantastic difference, and the entire rear of the car is so more confidence inspiring. The rear seems so much more settled down, and the rear steer/PTV effect seems almost non-existent now, with all the rubber deflection removed. Even on Pirelli DH, the car is very controlled at the limit, and easy to catch as the tire lets go. You can really focus on getting max front grip and balance for the car. Outside of just tinkering and weight removal to see how the car changes, I'm not sure I even feel the need to remove the rear toe steer now, the car just feels hooked-up! The stiffer front springs required a bit more shock rebound, to keep the nose planted a bit longer. The additional grip gave the car even more balance, and I was able to get to full throttle sooner as the car rotated a lot better from apex-out and mid-corner. I'll try softening the front swaybar to full soft next, but it's pretty damn good as is. That's the beauty of double adjustable shocks, you can really fine tune the handling with less compromise. I could actually lean on the front of the car so hard in braking that the rear end "dance" was a bit more pronounced. Now I want a bit more LSD lockup on decal, LOL.
We went back to NCM for another small time-attack, along with my same buddy who drives the crazy V8 miata TA monster. Track was about 2 seconds slower than in November due to heat (~90F) and conditions (it rained earlier in the day so track was green!). The V8 miata had zero setup changes from last year, but was on brand new slicks, and was still 1.7 seconds slower from November's time, he ran a 2:06 flat compared to the 2:04.3 previously. I was able to run a 2:07.3, which was a 4 tenths faster than last year. However, they bumped up the final attack session to avoid rain, and I had just gone out 20 minutes before to test a shock change and forgot to drop a couple pounds of pressure. I had a mid 2:06 lap indicated then, so I cost myself about .5 sec easily in the final TA session. The fact I was able to go faster on a slower track says a lot. That was just on Friday, and I had no prior setup/test time, and hadn't even been on track in this car since November. On Saturday, I was even more comfortable, and was able to dial in the shocks/setup and tire pressures, so the car was even faster. Managed some high 2:07's then, and the track was even slower than on Friday. Car is FAST.
It honestly feels like a new car on track compared the old setup, and the old setup was already great. NVH on the road due to the monoballs is slightly more, but the tradeoff for track performance is worth it IMO. If your car is a daily, then maybe it's not worth it, but if you want all-out performance, I whole-heartedly recommend doing exactly what I've done. The price and quality of the E-motion pieces are outstanding. Definitely include the toe-steer moonball inserts, it's worth the extra labor and effort.
New alignment kept the rear tires happier, they certainly wanted more rear camber.
06-05-2019, 03:26 PM
