A drive in the GT3 Touring and Carrera T
12-13-2017, 01:45 PM
#31
Addict
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
12-13-2017, 03:00 PM
#32
Intermediate
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Woodside, CA
Posts: 40
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Pete
I wish I had your job. my question is whether the 991.2 GT3/GT3 touring has the rear seatbelt mounting locations retained or if they were removed like in the 997.2 gt3.
thanks!
Ken
I wish I had your job. my question is whether the 991.2 GT3/GT3 touring has the rear seatbelt mounting locations retained or if they were removed like in the 997.2 gt3.
thanks!
Ken
12-13-2017, 03:33 PM
#33
Rennlist Member
12-13-2017, 03:39 PM
#34
Addict
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
12-13-2017, 04:33 PM
#36
Rennlist Member
Pete - See if you can find out what Porsche's plans are for GT3 production volume and duration, both globally and for the US! Many of us are hoping supply catches up with demand at some point in 2018 or 2019...
12-13-2017, 08:27 PM
#40
I love this idea! Make a NEW, old-school, air cooled-style car.... oh man, I'm excited just thinking about that!
12-13-2017, 10:27 PM
#41
I'd be interested in hearing how some of my pre-conceived notions compare to reality on the road:
I jump to the conclusion that the Carrera T might be more fun on particularly tight roads when pushing. Narrower rear, softer suspension to glide over bumps, more chassis movement (tires and lack of RWS, depending on spec), easier to get to the sweet spot in the power band. As the road improves and speeds climb I'd expect things to shift the Touring's way. I'd be curious if this dynamic plays out, and if so where the cross-over lies.
On the technical side I'd like to know if they feel the internal dry sump of the T can keep up with the true dry sump of the Touring if stickier tires are mounted for occasional circuit work. If so is the dry sump just needed for the revs?
Finally I'd like to know how they compare when you're just popping to the shops- does the normally aspirated engine make the Touring substantially more of an event? At 13 mpg city one would hope so...
I jump to the conclusion that the Carrera T might be more fun on particularly tight roads when pushing. Narrower rear, softer suspension to glide over bumps, more chassis movement (tires and lack of RWS, depending on spec), easier to get to the sweet spot in the power band. As the road improves and speeds climb I'd expect things to shift the Touring's way. I'd be curious if this dynamic plays out, and if so where the cross-over lies.
On the technical side I'd like to know if they feel the internal dry sump of the T can keep up with the true dry sump of the Touring if stickier tires are mounted for occasional circuit work. If so is the dry sump just needed for the revs?
Finally I'd like to know how they compare when you're just popping to the shops- does the normally aspirated engine make the Touring substantially more of an event? At 13 mpg city one would hope so...
12-13-2017, 11:35 PM
#42
RL Community Team
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Not sure this is possible with modern crash safety standards for production cars. Singer is not a production model so they can get away with bunch of stuff
12-14-2017, 01:07 PM
#45
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Okay, first report to the 991 Forum as I spent the majority of the day in a Carrera T 7MT and then a bit of time in the GT3 Touring 6MT. Tomorrow will probably be the opposite. Wi-Fi has been pretty iffy til now, so I may have to wait until I get back to upload photos. We'll see. On to first thoughts/impressions about the T.
So, please note this is a cross post to the 991.2 forum with some raw notes that focus on the T since that was the car I spent the most time in today. I then spent a delicious 30 minutes or so in a GT3 Touring on an insane road...part of the old Monte Carlo route I believe. More thoughts on the Touring to come—but it's a lot like the .2 GT3 MT I drove last summer: Brilliant.
-First, an important disclosure: They had snow yesterday, so all of the Ts are on Pirelli snow tires (295s in the rear, which look a little lame as they don't fill out the wells). Before you groan (as I did), it turns out the Pirelli snows are MUCH better than you'd think, and notably better than the Michelin snows on the GT3 Touring. We were lucky and today it was dry and sunny—so the roads were mostly dry. Both cars feel under-tired, but the lack of ultimate traction heightens some aspects of the handling takeaways. And you wouldn't guess we were on the wrong tires from the pace today.
-The short-shifter (which is just a shorter shift rod, I am told) is a NICE upgrade. If the 991.1 MT shifter needed work and the 991.2 shifter doesn't, the T moves it into the "wow, this is nice" category.
-Our car had 4-way Sport Seats Plus with no back seats—which is standard in the Euro cars. I was surprised to find that the Sport-Tex cloth wasn't as grippy as I was expecting—as the little shiny bits let my seater slide across them. Later, I was wearing an outdoor jacket that the cloth seats seemed to "grip" better. Or maybe it was just because I filled more of the seat?
-Cool detail on the freeway: The rear spoiler pops up enough that you can now see it in the rearview mirror. You also notice a BIT of distortion in the lightweight rear window, just at the edges. I like details like these, but if you want a rear-window defroster or a rear-window wiper, you can't have one with the lighter windows.
-The T is very, very, very good on tight twisting roads. We're in the mountains in South of France, and the roads are brilliant (though very narrow) and so is the car. The narrow body really works to your advantage up here. Compared to 2,000 miles with at least 500 of those on roads not so dissimilar to these in CA, the Sport PASM suspension (which is hardly "hard") isn't THAT much different than the standard PASM (which is hardly soft). A lot of the Sport PASM advantage, imo, is an optical thing.
-Even with snow tires and Sport PASM, the Carrera T just isn't all that different than a Carrera or S. My co-driver and I just took delivery of Carrera 7MTs and started the day with a strong suspicion that we were going to be seriously bummed we didn't know about the T before we got our cars. That moved to "if I was doing it now, I would order the T, but am actually not that bummed because this is not that different," to "no way I'd make the jump from a Carrera to this if it took $XX,XXX to do so. The Carrera T is excellent, and a very cool trim package, but no 987.2 Boxster Spyder here. The T is subtle in dynamic terms. From the driver's seat, the biggest change is the shifter, and then the added noise.
-The 370-hp flat six really is a gem of an engine—for power as well as character. It is, frankly, one of the best Porsche engines I have tested in the last 20 years, up there for pleasure and usability with the 987.1 3.4, 997.2/991.1 3.8 X51, 981 GTS 3.4, and even encroaching on the 997 RS 4.0, current GT3s and Carrera GT V10 for excellence despite the fact it is a very different engine with a different brief. It trades some of the thrill of the latter for a dual nature that's very cool. If you drive it like you would a 991.1 3.4 or 3.8, it is sharp/keen/"lagless" and FAST. But you can also short shift it and ride forward on a wave of boost-fed torque if you want to get a bit lazier and maybe more fluid (if that makes sense).
-The engine noise IS nice, perfectly addressing perhaps my biggest beef with the 991.2 Carrera. I suspect part of the change may be related to the lightweight windows (Gorilla Glass, like on an iPhone—which means it is US legal for the first time), but I am going to see if I can nail down what, exactly, changed as far as sound deadening.
-Is there anything missing? Yes. A brake upgrade. The standard brakes just aren't up to snuff. Pounding up and down sections of the Monte on a very cold day, they got hot, smelly, and the pedal felt long—you just didn't trust them, and that's a bad place to be with brakes in a sports car. They never faded, but this is the first Porsche in a long while where I feel the brakes aren't up to snuff for the speed. Credit the torque gains at corner exit thanks to the 3.0tt. A swap to the GT3 Touring reminded me just how amazing PCCB is—for the pedal feel and confidence alone. the brakes become a non-issue. No way I'd order a T without PCCB...but it really should have had S brakes...maybe with black calipers?
-Is the T worth it? Depends on what you like and/or value—but we should be dancing on rooftops that Porsche has decided to make a more sporting 911 that isn't at the premium price level (read GT3+). It's a very attractive package, but I'm not sure it would sway me out of a Carrera MT or a Carrera S MT.
-My take is that most T buyers would have to have PSE, but it's the thing I wish was an option rather than standard—as the T quickly gets into S or GTS money with PCCB and some options. Making PSE an option might help drop the starting point to $99k or $100k, and I'd forego the noise to put $3k towards better brakes.
-I was just starting to think the T (like the .2 Carrera) is all the 911 I need for the road. Then I made the mistake of running a brilliant section in the GT3 Touring. As good as the T is, the GT3 Touring shreds it. It's really something I have never experienced, that I can think of, jumping right out of one to the other on the same road on the same day, and the gulf is huge as it absolutely must be to justify the price difference. If the 3.0tt is a gem, the latest 4.0 is a full-on masterpiece. The 6MT is a bit nicer, the handling/braking/etc are all at least one level higher.
Okay, those are off the cuff first impressions, with no editing. Need to mull it a bit more, but thought you'd appreciate the raw notes/feedback.
Okay, going to attack this set of questions first, as they seem to encapsulate many of the above and wi-fi is a mess here.
First up, front lip is SAME on the Touring. Two well-placed experts confirmed it.
Porsche apparently learned a fair bit from the R exercise, and was able to achieve GT3-similar downforce with the GT3 Touring thanks to the Gurney and (I'm checking into this tonight) some other tweaks in the rear that don't include the lower diffusor—which is also shared with the regular GT3. The cost is drag, as the rear flap is at a very steep angle, and you see this in the Touring's top speed. Where the R went higher, the Touring is slower. Also kind of neat: Following the Touring on the freeway, the rear spoiler REALLY looked like a ducktail at a distance. On a black car, at least. Side note #2: The GT3 Touring didn't really do it for me in photos—I thought I'd go with the regular GT3 instead—but it looks fantastic in person, and it looks REALLY good in Black with silver wheels and Night Blue. I think it likes dark colors, and it also likes the bright window trim. YMMV, but that's my take from here.
Will have more questions to ask on sound deadening. I'm curious too—but the Touring is just glorious to be in/listen to as you row it through the gears. It's one of those "this is the high art of the sports car right now" cars, and they're rarer than we tend to think they are.
Yes, the T's "shorter gears" was not reported well by many sources. It is only the final drive, and then only the S/GTS setup. I just spent 2000 miles in a standard .2 Carrera, and the difference in the T is minuscule in use—and I am not the only one who feels that way. There's a guy from Weissach here I've come to trust, and that's his take also.
So, please note this is a cross post to the 991.2 forum with some raw notes that focus on the T since that was the car I spent the most time in today. I then spent a delicious 30 minutes or so in a GT3 Touring on an insane road...part of the old Monte Carlo route I believe. More thoughts on the Touring to come—but it's a lot like the .2 GT3 MT I drove last summer: Brilliant.
-First, an important disclosure: They had snow yesterday, so all of the Ts are on Pirelli snow tires (295s in the rear, which look a little lame as they don't fill out the wells). Before you groan (as I did), it turns out the Pirelli snows are MUCH better than you'd think, and notably better than the Michelin snows on the GT3 Touring. We were lucky and today it was dry and sunny—so the roads were mostly dry. Both cars feel under-tired, but the lack of ultimate traction heightens some aspects of the handling takeaways. And you wouldn't guess we were on the wrong tires from the pace today.
-The short-shifter (which is just a shorter shift rod, I am told) is a NICE upgrade. If the 991.1 MT shifter needed work and the 991.2 shifter doesn't, the T moves it into the "wow, this is nice" category.
-Our car had 4-way Sport Seats Plus with no back seats—which is standard in the Euro cars. I was surprised to find that the Sport-Tex cloth wasn't as grippy as I was expecting—as the little shiny bits let my seater slide across them. Later, I was wearing an outdoor jacket that the cloth seats seemed to "grip" better. Or maybe it was just because I filled more of the seat?
-Cool detail on the freeway: The rear spoiler pops up enough that you can now see it in the rearview mirror. You also notice a BIT of distortion in the lightweight rear window, just at the edges. I like details like these, but if you want a rear-window defroster or a rear-window wiper, you can't have one with the lighter windows.
-The T is very, very, very good on tight twisting roads. We're in the mountains in South of France, and the roads are brilliant (though very narrow) and so is the car. The narrow body really works to your advantage up here. Compared to 2,000 miles with at least 500 of those on roads not so dissimilar to these in CA, the Sport PASM suspension (which is hardly "hard") isn't THAT much different than the standard PASM (which is hardly soft). A lot of the Sport PASM advantage, imo, is an optical thing.
-Even with snow tires and Sport PASM, the Carrera T just isn't all that different than a Carrera or S. My co-driver and I just took delivery of Carrera 7MTs and started the day with a strong suspicion that we were going to be seriously bummed we didn't know about the T before we got our cars. That moved to "if I was doing it now, I would order the T, but am actually not that bummed because this is not that different," to "no way I'd make the jump from a Carrera to this if it took $XX,XXX to do so. The Carrera T is excellent, and a very cool trim package, but no 987.2 Boxster Spyder here. The T is subtle in dynamic terms. From the driver's seat, the biggest change is the shifter, and then the added noise.
-The 370-hp flat six really is a gem of an engine—for power as well as character. It is, frankly, one of the best Porsche engines I have tested in the last 20 years, up there for pleasure and usability with the 987.1 3.4, 997.2/991.1 3.8 X51, 981 GTS 3.4, and even encroaching on the 997 RS 4.0, current GT3s and Carrera GT V10 for excellence despite the fact it is a very different engine with a different brief. It trades some of the thrill of the latter for a dual nature that's very cool. If you drive it like you would a 991.1 3.4 or 3.8, it is sharp/keen/"lagless" and FAST. But you can also short shift it and ride forward on a wave of boost-fed torque if you want to get a bit lazier and maybe more fluid (if that makes sense).
-The engine noise IS nice, perfectly addressing perhaps my biggest beef with the 991.2 Carrera. I suspect part of the change may be related to the lightweight windows (Gorilla Glass, like on an iPhone—which means it is US legal for the first time), but I am going to see if I can nail down what, exactly, changed as far as sound deadening.
-Is there anything missing? Yes. A brake upgrade. The standard brakes just aren't up to snuff. Pounding up and down sections of the Monte on a very cold day, they got hot, smelly, and the pedal felt long—you just didn't trust them, and that's a bad place to be with brakes in a sports car. They never faded, but this is the first Porsche in a long while where I feel the brakes aren't up to snuff for the speed. Credit the torque gains at corner exit thanks to the 3.0tt. A swap to the GT3 Touring reminded me just how amazing PCCB is—for the pedal feel and confidence alone. the brakes become a non-issue. No way I'd order a T without PCCB...but it really should have had S brakes...maybe with black calipers?
-Is the T worth it? Depends on what you like and/or value—but we should be dancing on rooftops that Porsche has decided to make a more sporting 911 that isn't at the premium price level (read GT3+). It's a very attractive package, but I'm not sure it would sway me out of a Carrera MT or a Carrera S MT.
-My take is that most T buyers would have to have PSE, but it's the thing I wish was an option rather than standard—as the T quickly gets into S or GTS money with PCCB and some options. Making PSE an option might help drop the starting point to $99k or $100k, and I'd forego the noise to put $3k towards better brakes.
-I was just starting to think the T (like the .2 Carrera) is all the 911 I need for the road. Then I made the mistake of running a brilliant section in the GT3 Touring. As good as the T is, the GT3 Touring shreds it. It's really something I have never experienced, that I can think of, jumping right out of one to the other on the same road on the same day, and the gulf is huge as it absolutely must be to justify the price difference. If the 3.0tt is a gem, the latest 4.0 is a full-on masterpiece. The 6MT is a bit nicer, the handling/braking/etc are all at least one level higher.
Okay, those are off the cuff first impressions, with no editing. Need to mull it a bit more, but thought you'd appreciate the raw notes/feedback.
Confirm or not whether the front spoiler is smaller on the touring.
Compare the downforce of the wing v. the flap on the touring (trap times and vmax imply higher drag on the touring, but no Porsche mention of downforce).
How the amount of sound deadening compares between the various models (e.g. whether the touring is the same as the GT3 wing, GT3 compared to R, T compared to GTS).
Confirm the steeper gearing on the 911T is simply the S gear ratio.
Thanks!
PS Hint to porsche they should allow leather to sample on the next GT car or late GT3. :-)
Compare the downforce of the wing v. the flap on the touring (trap times and vmax imply higher drag on the touring, but no Porsche mention of downforce).
How the amount of sound deadening compares between the various models (e.g. whether the touring is the same as the GT3 wing, GT3 compared to R, T compared to GTS).
Confirm the steeper gearing on the 911T is simply the S gear ratio.
Thanks!
PS Hint to porsche they should allow leather to sample on the next GT car or late GT3. :-)
First up, front lip is SAME on the Touring. Two well-placed experts confirmed it.
Porsche apparently learned a fair bit from the R exercise, and was able to achieve GT3-similar downforce with the GT3 Touring thanks to the Gurney and (I'm checking into this tonight) some other tweaks in the rear that don't include the lower diffusor—which is also shared with the regular GT3. The cost is drag, as the rear flap is at a very steep angle, and you see this in the Touring's top speed. Where the R went higher, the Touring is slower. Also kind of neat: Following the Touring on the freeway, the rear spoiler REALLY looked like a ducktail at a distance. On a black car, at least. Side note #2: The GT3 Touring didn't really do it for me in photos—I thought I'd go with the regular GT3 instead—but it looks fantastic in person, and it looks REALLY good in Black with silver wheels and Night Blue. I think it likes dark colors, and it also likes the bright window trim. YMMV, but that's my take from here.
Will have more questions to ask on sound deadening. I'm curious too—but the Touring is just glorious to be in/listen to as you row it through the gears. It's one of those "this is the high art of the sports car right now" cars, and they're rarer than we tend to think they are.
Yes, the T's "shorter gears" was not reported well by many sources. It is only the final drive, and then only the S/GTS setup. I just spent 2000 miles in a standard .2 Carrera, and the difference in the T is minuscule in use—and I am not the only one who feels that way. There's a guy from Weissach here I've come to trust, and that's his take also.