Speedster - Calling All Cleaning Ladies
11-06-2018, 08:47 AM
#1306
Rennlist Member
It is really good having the level-headed and transparent discussion on this. But if I step back a bit, how have things come to this?! I need to get a spreadsheet going but it feels like Porsche and dealers would make more profit if Porsche simply made more of the cars people want to buy. No ADMs, no dealer games, no 5-year waiting lists, everyone gets a GT3 at list, world a happier place! Ho hum, pipe dream!
bottom line is people want what they can’t have. Take the current Rolex Daytona. There is still a waiting list for them. Yes, resale is about 5-7k above MSRP. This isn’t a mass produced item, therefore people want the exclusivity factor. Same goes for the non mass produced vehicles. If the GTx / 911r / Speedster production gets increased to equal the output of a Macan 4 cylinder, will this drive your desire to have one? Will it feel special? personally, I had a Macan 4 cylinder as a loaner for a while, and I do need to say that I was begging for a S or a GTS to get put into the loaner fleet..
just my 2cents.
Btw, @C.J. Ichiban thanks for the transparency. The same holds true for my dealership, I don’t want to put words in their mouth, but my perception is that they like to sell these cars to people that will be out using their cars, not put away and bubble wrapped. These are the same people who personally drag their friends down to buy cars, who introduce others to the dealership that are clients of a competing nearby Porsche dealership, who introduce others to the brand, who service their vehicles regularly, etc. I recall one Saturday afternoon going there with a friend, and 3 other friends stopped in as well. It was an impromptu Cars and coffee at the local dealership.
11-06-2018, 10:16 AM
#1307
Platinum Dealership
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the sustainability of the porsche product cycle is that the car types people actually need (4 door) are readily available and pretty enough to daily drive, and the sports cars are attractive enough and emotionally thrilling enough to force us to stretch our budgets a little when one is available in our relative price range.
this is the GT car forum but we/us do not represent the bulk of business. LOTS of porsche customers only want a targa, turbo, GTS, etc. they perceive GT3 as a rude boy car. it's different per person.
porsche has their act together in regards to allocations or production BETTER than any other brand. i deal with other brands. i see it. other than Ferrari I have a handle on the politics of production for all the other brands
the sustainability of the porsche product cycle is that the car types people actually need (4 door) are readily available and pretty enough to daily drive, and the sports cars are attractive enough and emotionally thrilling enough to force us to stretch our budgets a little when one is available in our relative price range.
this is the GT car forum but we/us do not represent the bulk of business. LOTS of porsche customers only want a targa, turbo, GTS, etc. they perceive GT3 as a rude boy car. it's different per person.
porsche has their act together in regards to allocations or production BETTER than any other brand. i deal with other brands. i see it. other than Ferrari I have a handle on the politics of production for all the other brands
11-06-2018, 02:44 PM
#1308
Rennlist Member
CJ, appreciate your insight to how things work at your dealership. it does help make sense of this whole GT frenzy.
do you have any idea what the projected MSRP will be on the speedster?
do you have any idea what the projected MSRP will be on the speedster?
11-06-2018, 03:23 PM
#1309
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Previously, the popular opinion was that forcing clients to buy cars they don’t want in order to make them eligible for a GT allocation would only trigger them to never want to do business with that dealer ever again. But judging from the response here, it seems many clients are actually ok with it, and maybe even prefer it to market prices. Honestly, I would never have predicted that (especially on Rennlist).
If dealers like C.J./Fresno can use the Speedster to broom old-age inventory and buyers are ok with it, then it’s a win/win for everyone. I also liked the idea of the dealer speccing a GT car for Euro delivery and then finding a buyer who will pick it up... dealer gets an extra car, and buyer gets to drive a GT car in Europe. Again, it’s a win/win.
I know now these conversations can be delicate, so I appreciate everyone’s level-headed input.
11-06-2018, 03:28 PM
#1310
I echo everyone’s sentiments about C.J. and his process, as well... it’s very open and transparent and well-liked by the enthusiasts on Rennlist. I think this conversation has been very valuable, especially for many Porsche dealers outside of Fresno.
Previously, the popular opinion was that forcing clients to buy cars they don’t want in order to make them eligible for a GT allocation would only trigger them to never want to do business with that dealer ever again. But judging from the response here, it seems many clients are actually ok with it, and maybe even prefer it to market prices. Honestly, I would never have predicted that (especially on Rennlist).
If dealers like C.J./Fresno can use the Speedster to broom old-age inventory and buyers are ok with it, then it’s a win/win for everyone. I also liked the idea of the dealer speccing a GT car for Euro delivery and then finding a buyer who will pick it up... dealer gets an extra car, and buyer gets to drive a GT car in Europe. Again, it’s a win/win.
I know now these conversations can be delicate, so I appreciate everyone’s level-headed input.
Without going into detail, I don't like the path I had to take to get a car over the past 2.5 years, brutal.
I am happy I have one coming albeit without PTS and ED which were dreams for me on my first GT3.
11-06-2018, 03:53 PM
#1311
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You may only be interested in the US perspective. But I think I'd rather stomach ADM than buy other vehicles or trade vehicles, more of a fair game than buying other vehicles and trades. However it seems to be a rule in Canada to not sell above MSRP, I haven't found the law so I don't know if it's the law or not.
Without going into detail, I don't like the path I had to take to get a car over the past 2.5 years, brutal.
I am happy I have one coming albeit without PTS and ED which were dreams for me on my first GT3.
Without going into detail, I don't like the path I had to take to get a car over the past 2.5 years, brutal.
I am happy I have one coming albeit without PTS and ED which were dreams for me on my first GT3.
Maybe if the dealer offered different cars, it might change your mind? Instead of a Panamera ST and a S Cabriolet, you got 4 base Caymans? Not sure if that makes sense. Many dealers have off-brand USED inventory they need to dump, too. Chevrolet Silverado 2500 with frame damage on the CarFax?? Gotta be creative and offer something that benefits you and the dealer.
11-06-2018, 04:15 PM
#1312
SJW, a Carin' kinda guy
Rennlist Member
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The one downside to canada’s MSRP only is you basically can’t directly pay ADM to get the car you want new. As I noted above, you can just sell whatever you don’t want to buy to monetize the extra cars into an ADM number, but my experience with looking into that is it can have sales tax consequences. For example, when I thought about buying a GT3RS used to get my GT3 allocation, I would have been out the sales tax on the extra money I spent above the price of the GT3. And, same thing with sales to others not back to the dealer on trade in some states (I admit don’t know how PST and GST work in Canada).
As someone who helps do a lot of big transactions for a living, these are minor issues that can be addressed, but they do add costs (without direct benefit to the parties) which is part of why I called it “silly” for those who don’t want the other cars.
I figure it is a harder pitch for those who do not want additional cars in California where you don’t get sales tax credit on trade ins. But again, I assume some buyers want the extra cars so rather than asking for a $30k discount on a panny (or whatever I have no idea what the panny market is like) and ADM on a GT3RS they pay sticker on the panny and get a GT3RS at sticker and both the dealer and the buyer are identically situated as with market pricing.
As someone who helps do a lot of big transactions for a living, these are minor issues that can be addressed, but they do add costs (without direct benefit to the parties) which is part of why I called it “silly” for those who don’t want the other cars.
I figure it is a harder pitch for those who do not want additional cars in California where you don’t get sales tax credit on trade ins. But again, I assume some buyers want the extra cars so rather than asking for a $30k discount on a panny (or whatever I have no idea what the panny market is like) and ADM on a GT3RS they pay sticker on the panny and get a GT3RS at sticker and both the dealer and the buyer are identically situated as with market pricing.
11-06-2018, 04:15 PM
#1313
I appreciate all input - even Canadian.
Maybe if the dealer offered different cars, it might change your mind? Instead of a Panamera ST and a S Cabriolet, you got 4 base Caymans? Not sure if that makes sense. Many dealers have off-brand USED inventory they need to dump, too. Chevrolet Silverado 2500 with frame damage on the CarFax?? Gotta be creative and offer something that benefits you and the dealer.
I bought a GT4 with the intent of keeping it but would be nice if I got my GT3 allocation like I set out to do with deposit in Feb 2016. My deposit was with dealer A, they strung me along and I ended up with nothing. Now waiting over a week to get my deposit back. I bought the GT4 from dealer B, they wouldn't give me a GT3 even if I traded the GT4, I service my 997.2 and GT4 with them. I know they had allocations to give. Also told them I am likely to buy a Cayenne in 2019 to replace my DD. I traded my GT4 to an out of town dealer C and will likely buy a Cayenne from them as well. So I'm happy dealer C came through and the process was rather painless, they seem open and honest with how it works. I like that and will support them with new car business as long as it's a win-win. I do wish dealer B came through because they are 7 minutes from my house.
I think some US folks have a misconception about how its done in Canada. It's really not any nicer than the US, it's all dark room, behind the scenes, playing favorites, race targeting (one dealer seemed to be going after the increasing wealthy asian market in Toronto). Lists don't necessarily mean anything unless you are the "right" buyer for a specific dealer. At least in the US it's in your face and you know what's happening.
11-06-2018, 04:18 PM
#1314
The one downside to canada’s MSRP only is you basically can’t directly pay ADM to get the car you want new. As I noted above, you can just sell whatever you don’t want to buy to monetize the extra cars into an ADM number, but my experience with looking into that is it can have sales tax consequences. For example, when I thought about buying a GT3RS used to get my GT3 allocation, I would have been out the sales tax on the extra money I spent above the price of the GT3. And, same thing with sales to others not back to the dealer on trade in some states (I admit don’t know how PST and GST work in Canada).
As someone who helps do a lot of big transactions for a living, these are minor issues that can be addressed, but they do add costs (without direct benefit to the parties) which is part of why I called it “silly” for those who don’t want the other cars.
I figure it is a harder pitch for those who do not want additional cars in California where you don’t get sales tax credit on trade ins. But again, I assume some buyers want the extra cars so rather than asking for a $30k discount on a panny (or whatever I have no idea what the panny market is like) and ADM on a GT3RS they pay sticker on the panny and get a GT3RS at sticker and both the dealer and the buyer are identically situated as with market pricing.
As someone who helps do a lot of big transactions for a living, these are minor issues that can be addressed, but they do add costs (without direct benefit to the parties) which is part of why I called it “silly” for those who don’t want the other cars.
I figure it is a harder pitch for those who do not want additional cars in California where you don’t get sales tax credit on trade ins. But again, I assume some buyers want the extra cars so rather than asking for a $30k discount on a panny (or whatever I have no idea what the panny market is like) and ADM on a GT3RS they pay sticker on the panny and get a GT3RS at sticker and both the dealer and the buyer are identically situated as with market pricing.
11-06-2018, 04:28 PM
#1315
SJW, a Carin' kinda guy
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
And for Canadians, I am not sure what would prevent you from offering whatever ADM you wanted to pay on your GT car for the rusted out $1000 trade in car in the back lot.
I will add important one note I neglected, I think for the reason CW articulated, upsetting potential buyers and turning them off, dealers are reticent to present deals directly at least not to people they don’t know, which ends up maybe YOU not getting the car you want. So if you know what you want to pay, nothing stopping you from being upfront and honest with the dealer and presenting a deal. E.g. offer $20k ADM or offering $20k for the rusted out Subaru on the back lot for an allocation at sticker.
I will add important one note I neglected, I think for the reason CW articulated, upsetting potential buyers and turning them off, dealers are reticent to present deals directly at least not to people they don’t know, which ends up maybe YOU not getting the car you want. So if you know what you want to pay, nothing stopping you from being upfront and honest with the dealer and presenting a deal. E.g. offer $20k ADM or offering $20k for the rusted out Subaru on the back lot for an allocation at sticker.
11-06-2018, 05:12 PM
#1316
And for Canadians, I am not sure what would prevent you from offering whatever ADM you wanted to pay on your GT car for the rusted out $1000 trade in car in the back lot.
I will add important one note I neglected, I think for the reason CW articulated, upsetting potential buyers and turning them off, dealers are reticent to present deals directly at least not to people they don’t know, which ends up maybe YOU not getting the car you want. So if you know what you want to pay, nothing stopping you from being upfront and honest with the dealer and presenting a deal. E.g. offer $20k ADM or offering $20k for the rusted out Subaru on the back lot for an allocation at sticker.
I will add important one note I neglected, I think for the reason CW articulated, upsetting potential buyers and turning them off, dealers are reticent to present deals directly at least not to people they don’t know, which ends up maybe YOU not getting the car you want. So if you know what you want to pay, nothing stopping you from being upfront and honest with the dealer and presenting a deal. E.g. offer $20k ADM or offering $20k for the rusted out Subaru on the back lot for an allocation at sticker.
A sales manager here at Pfaff told me he lost a customer to the new Corporate store, they made the guy buy a Macan and Boxster to get a GT3. The same corporate store told me they sold a GT4 to a customer last spring, guy put 2xx km on it, traded it back on a GT3 allocation a few months later. There are more stories like this and others in Canada.
I'm good, I got my GT3 by trading my GT4. I lost on the GT4 because of paying market price this past April. My "ADM" was about $12K and that includes the finance cost for 5 months of GT4 ownership. Worth it in my opinion. They sold my GT4 in 25 minutes after it being traded.
11-06-2018, 09:29 PM
#1318
My steel Daytona in white just arrived and no, I’m not a flipper. My Rolex store follows CJ’s system, albeit unofficially: Be a loyal customer and a referral source for new customers and you’re REWARDED.
11-06-2018, 10:28 PM
#1319
I'm not sure how anyone can take issue with this?
11-06-2018, 10:31 PM
#1320
Racer
Originally Posted by WernerE
My steel Daytona in white just arrived and no, I’m not a flipper. My Rolex store follows CJ’s system, albeit unofficially: Be a loyal customer and a referral source for new customers and you’re REWARDED.