New GT3/GT2RS Leads With/Without ADM
08-25-2018, 02:23 PM
#2326
Intermediate
Join Date: Jul 2018
Location: Rancho Santa Fe, CA
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Source: http://www.investopedia.com/articles...es-history.asp
08-25-2018, 06:17 PM
#2327
Just curious (I guess we are on a witch hunt?) - since PNH didn't ask you to give them first rights to the PTS GT3 when you had your .2 3RS allocation secured with them, why not sell your GT3 then at cost to someone on RL to enjoy? Because when you give them the car "for a fair price" and don't pay taxes on the car, I'm a bit confused. That feels like a flip to me. Maybe if there was a 991.2 GT3RS 4.2 or some limited thing, we'd see your 991.2 3RS with delivery miles being sold with an ADM @ PNH as well. Would feel like a flip to me... John at PNH is/was a pleasure to chat with and of course I never expected a GT3 allocation call from him, but to see the amount of GT cars that store is pulling in and flipping over asking is notable considering how many on here wanted to buy, drive, and enjoy these cars at MSRP. I think maintaining a relationship with a dealer is a smart move for that pipeline access to GT cars @ MSRP, but I don't think maintaining a relationship and flipping are mutually exclusive? That's what irked me just a wee bit about a champion of MSRP and the King stealer basher, and then we see your gorgeous car @ PNH market priced. They seem to be a stealer for everyone except the lucky few who maintain a relationship by handing their GT cars to PNH to sell above asking while they get more cars at MSRP to do with as they like, drive and enjoy (seemingly rare), flip themselves, or wash their hands and let PNH do the flipping for them.
I like reading about the stories of the dealers who have held out and maintain MSRP lists, so you wait and if you get the call, you get the allocation @ MSRP. No games, ADM, relationship stuff. Seem to be the smaller guys and maybe those guys are more and more falling by the wayside which is sad. To hear the RL guys say they got the call and get to spec their car, that excitement is what it is all about. Even though I never got that call and had to pay an ADM for the best car I've owned to date, I'm happy for them when I see that. The saddest part is I'm even being told *now* that for the 992 GT3 some dealers are already taking lists/names down, but at market price only...FOH!!!
There are much bigger problems in the world than this..but its Saturday AM and I'm waiting for coffee to brew
EDIT - also the reason why I'm thinking out loud here is because Porsche is more and more becoming like Ferrari in this sense with the GT cars and the unclear games/politics needed to secure a car you really want when you have cash in hand. Especially when everything else is getting more digital, less analog (yes even though my car is PDK!), more electric, more turbo. Porsche used to be a brand I loved (even though I couldn't afford a 911 at the time) because it represented the German way of doing the sports car, simple to the point amazing cars in a subtle understated way. It wasn't as flashy and pretentious as Ferrari (apparently). Now, they are taking pages out of Ferrari's book. I'm waiting to hear someone having to buy a Panamera Turbo S e-Hybrid and and sell it back to dealer next day at a $50-75k loss for that "GT allocation" and sign agreements for right of first refusal... especially as PAG shifts focus to the Mission E/more electric production, I am left wondering what games we will deal with for 992 gen to simply get these GT cars.
I like reading about the stories of the dealers who have held out and maintain MSRP lists, so you wait and if you get the call, you get the allocation @ MSRP. No games, ADM, relationship stuff. Seem to be the smaller guys and maybe those guys are more and more falling by the wayside which is sad. To hear the RL guys say they got the call and get to spec their car, that excitement is what it is all about. Even though I never got that call and had to pay an ADM for the best car I've owned to date, I'm happy for them when I see that. The saddest part is I'm even being told *now* that for the 992 GT3 some dealers are already taking lists/names down, but at market price only...FOH!!!
There are much bigger problems in the world than this..but its Saturday AM and I'm waiting for coffee to brew
EDIT - also the reason why I'm thinking out loud here is because Porsche is more and more becoming like Ferrari in this sense with the GT cars and the unclear games/politics needed to secure a car you really want when you have cash in hand. Especially when everything else is getting more digital, less analog (yes even though my car is PDK!), more electric, more turbo. Porsche used to be a brand I loved (even though I couldn't afford a 911 at the time) because it represented the German way of doing the sports car, simple to the point amazing cars in a subtle understated way. It wasn't as flashy and pretentious as Ferrari (apparently). Now, they are taking pages out of Ferrari's book. I'm waiting to hear someone having to buy a Panamera Turbo S e-Hybrid and and sell it back to dealer next day at a $50-75k loss for that "GT allocation" and sign agreements for right of first refusal... especially as PAG shifts focus to the Mission E/more electric production, I am left wondering what games we will deal with for 992 gen to simply get these GT cars.
08-25-2018, 06:32 PM
#2328
Originally Posted by usctrojanGT3
I’ll share with you my story of how I got a relationship with PNH. Before I did business with PNH back in the .1RS days I went around to my local dealers to try to start a relationship and either got told to go away because they had enough good customers or I got ignored hearing crickets. So I ended up paying $50k over for a speccable .1RS allocation in 2016. As my finances improved in 2017 I set my eyes out on buying a 997 4.0. John had listed the one that I bought in July of last year and I have another gentleman on RL first dibs at the since bc I didn’t want to create a bidding war. He ultimately passed on the car and I bought it. As part of the transaction I sold PNH my 1 of 1 PTS 3.8RS and my UV 991.1RS. I also put in an order for a Macan S as I needed it for my real estate business. I flew out to Houston complete the 3-way transaction and spec my Macan in Aug of last year. Shortly after that I was offered my .2GT3 allocation. There was no mention that I needed to trade the car in to get a .2GT3RS allocation as I would have one regardless. At that moment I knew I had found my dealer and that we had a relationship going. I flew back out to Houston in Feb to complete the transaction on my GT3 and thank John and Billy. To me, because PNH took care of me it was only right of me to give them the opportunity to sell them the GT3 when I was done with it. I took all of mtvtrwck bits out of the .1RS and they are ready to be installed in the .2RS so you’ll see pictures of the car on track before you see it listed for sale, that I can promise you. Believe me I know the frustration that you and many feel because I have been in the same shoes. Heck I even bought my GT4 from a 918 owner for $10k because I could get an msrp allocation. The truth of the matter is that it takes transactions and effort to establish a relationship with a Porsche dealer and I was fortunate that I was able to do that with PNH. I’ll be flying back out to Houston early next year when my RS comes in to complete the transaction because that’s just how I roll. Besides, it’s a good excuse to enjoy some delicious Texas BBQ again too. Lol
08-25-2018, 06:49 PM
#2329
Race Car
Im not here to call anyone out. The truth of the matter is that there are way too many low mileage cars for sale so soon after release, initially ordered by customers who had no intention of keeping them. Individual situations change, and some get the unexpected allocation for the next gt model, but we know that does not account for the majority of cars for sale.
It's unfortunate for those people who wanted to create, keep and enjoy their cars.
It's unfortunate for those people who wanted to create, keep and enjoy their cars.
They were speculators, flippers, hustlers, used car salesman... you pick the adjective I don't care. Fact is the MT .2 GT3 isn't bringing the crazy demand like the R did so all these supposed "purists" are now all FLIPPING, or you can call it selling their cars. Like I stated before now you end up with a bunch of crappy spec, ADM or "Market Value" cars that people couldn't get that actually would have specced and driven them like they should be.
08-25-2018, 07:03 PM
#2330
Race Car
I have to imagine that if the people who complain NON STOP about the adm situations and are real buyers, spent their time developing a relationship with a dealer (spend time there, be nice, show true enthusiasm, and don't bitch complain about the adm situation), they too would end up with a specable allocation atbor very near msrp. That's how it has worked for me. I returned my GT4 to them for a small loss when I decided to order my GT3. They sold it quickly for a tidy profit. And I'm happy for them...
My bet however is that most of the people continually complaining aren't even real buyers if the opportunity presented itself.
My bet however is that most of the people continually complaining aren't even real buyers if the opportunity presented itself.
I was not successful trying your above strategy at 4 different dealers. Yes I was a buyer BTW. I ended up getting my now current .1 GT3 because I was tired of the BS and games and quite frankly on 2 separate occasions actual lies from 2 different GM's.
I do however agree with most of your post except the "most aren't even real buyers" as I can only speak for myself.
08-25-2018, 07:48 PM
#2331
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From talking to clients and friend at multiple dealerships, many of these "flipper" cars are the result of .2 RS / GT2RS and their PTS or late order .2 GT3 all potentially arriving within 1-3 months of one another. (including some VIP clients). It's hard for most to justifying multiple "similar" cars arriving at the same time and they're being sold while they can (and if the market is supporting ADM, more power to them for having the relationship to get the allocations).
I think the above is also being amplified by the fact the vast majority of cars are arriving just as the market typically cools a bit in the northern regions for the Winter. Will be interesting to see what direction things go come Spring when the 991 will be trailing off production and good weather starts to kick in (assuming economy is still good).
I think the above is also being amplified by the fact the vast majority of cars are arriving just as the market typically cools a bit in the northern regions for the Winter. Will be interesting to see what direction things go come Spring when the 991 will be trailing off production and good weather starts to kick in (assuming economy is still good).
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08-25-2018, 11:07 PM
#2332
Rennlist Member
Originally Posted by goin2drt
Yes I was a buyer BTW. I ended up getting my now current .1 GT3 ....
08-25-2018, 11:17 PM
#2333
Rennlist Member
I’ll share with you my story of how I got a relationship with PNH. Before I did business with PNH back in the .1RS days I went around to my local dealers to try to start a relationship and either got told to go away because they had enough good customers or I got ignored hearing crickets. So I ended up paying $50k over for a speccable .1RS allocation in 2016. As my finances improved in 2017 I set my eyes out on buying a 997 4.0. John had listed the one that I bought in July of last year and I have another gentleman on RL first dibs at the since bc I didn’t want to create a bidding war. He ultimately passed on the car and I bought it. As part of the transaction I sold PNH my 1 of 1 PTS 3.8RS and my UV 991.1RS. I also put in an order for a Macan S as I needed it for my real estate business. I flew out to Houston complete the 3-way transaction and spec my Macan in Aug of last year. Shortly after that I was offered my .2GT3 allocation. There was no mention that I needed to trade the car in to get a .2GT3RS allocation as I would have one regardless. At that moment I knew I had found my dealer and that we had a relationship going. I flew back out to Houston in Feb to complete the transaction on my GT3 and thank John and Billy. To me, because PNH took care of me it was only right of me to give them the opportunity to sell them the GT3 when I was done with it. I took all of mtvtrwck bits out of the .1RS and they are ready to be installed in the .2RS so you’ll see pictures of the car on track before you see it listed for sale, that I can promise you. Believe me I know the frustration that you and many feel because I have been in the same shoes. Heck I even bought my GT4 from a 918 owner for $10k because I could get an msrp allocation. The truth of the matter is that it takes transactions and effort to establish a relationship with a Porsche dealer and I was fortunate that I was able to do that with PNH. I’ll be flying back out to Houston early next year when my RS comes in to complete the transaction because that’s just how I roll. Besides, it’s a good excuse to enjoy some delicious Texas BBQ again too. Lol
08-26-2018, 12:08 AM
#2334
Race Car
Yep bought it from CJ directly at Fresno Porsche. Great experience. CPO with 1,900 miles in November. Just hit 11k today on our drive.
08-26-2018, 12:56 AM
#2335
Fair point. It did not work for me. NOW the difference is if I was a continual buyer of other Porsche's (non GT) over and over again then maybe, just maybe I could have gotten one. I am not in that financial ability to do that. I own one Porsche. However I have spent hours upon hours in, at and around a few dealerships to include ALL my service as well as talking multiple (probably 20) other of my PCA friends to use a particular dealer for service.
I was not successful trying your above strategy at 4 different dealers. Yes I was a buyer BTW. I ended up getting my now current .1 GT3 because I was tired of the BS and games and quite frankly on 2 separate occasions actual lies from 2 different GM's.
I do however agree with most of your post except the "most aren't even real buyers" as I can only speak for myself.
I was not successful trying your above strategy at 4 different dealers. Yes I was a buyer BTW. I ended up getting my now current .1 GT3 because I was tired of the BS and games and quite frankly on 2 separate occasions actual lies from 2 different GM's.
I do however agree with most of your post except the "most aren't even real buyers" as I can only speak for myself.
08-26-2018, 12:58 AM
#2336
The more you buy and sell thru one dealership, the better chance to get an allocation for MSRP. I've bought 2 cars and sold one back to PNH, not high enough for a 991.2 GT3 msrp allocation or 991.2 GT3RS msrp allocation either. I'm hoping by having my name on a list early for a 991 Speedster at PNH that will pay off...
08-26-2018, 12:59 AM
#2337
Porsche Fresno/CJ is another good guy dealer even though I won't get a GT car from them. I bought a Cayenne from them and referred one of my buddies who bought a used .1RS from CJ.
08-26-2018, 01:18 AM
#2338
Three Wheelin'
Good to hear your relationship worked for both you and the dealership. Not all transactions turn to good relationships. At least now you are one of the people who need not pay ADM.
Drive safe,
GT3RS-Fan1
Drive safe,
GT3RS-Fan1
The problem is you live in So Cal so you gotta be a BIG FISH to even get a chance at buying a GT at MSRP (notice how I said it doesn't guarantee it). I tried establishing a relationship with local dealers at Newport, Circle, Walters, San Diego, and Guadin in Vegas with ZERO luck...like I said before all I got was a polite "go away" or crickets. That $800k+ 3-car transaction with PNH is what gave me that chance to become a good customer with them, I'm also not a douche or annoying and I personally fly out and thank them for every car that I get so that doesn't hurt either. As with any relationship, it's a 2-way street where both sides should benefit resulting in a win-win relationship.
08-26-2018, 01:23 AM
#2339
Thank you sir, it's nice knowing that I don't have to sweat getting another GT3/GT4/GT3RS for MSRP going forward so I do consider myself lucky. That being said, I'm sure I'm not a big fish even at PNH to get more limited cars like a Speedster or a GT2RS but that's fine because the want factor on those isn't high at all. Those folks at PNH treat me like a local good customer which I appreciate a lot.
08-26-2018, 01:24 AM
#2340
GT3 player par excellence
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i finally got riled up.
some ppl seems upset with some ppl
but some of the ppl's assumption are far from correct
1. i flip (or sell or whatever adjective you prefer) a lot of cars. most at very large losses, if selling low mile cars at loss is frowned upon , then i am guilty
2. i buy from many dealers in CA, several in TX, two on east coat and one in vegas. from my dealings with them, i know which is good. and good doesn't mean msrp dealers, i only need trhem to tell me if they have a car for me or not. i will decided if i pay up or not. if they lie, then they are not good dealer. if they tell the truth and charge up, i dont mind and i will chose whom i buy from.
3, PNH is good in telling truth. i wanted an R and a GT2RS, they told me i can't get one; understand. they have sold me at msrp many cars. but i spent over $1.5MM with them in 2018 and by end of 2018 it would be close to $2MM
4. fresno is a good dealer, again, i told CJ i wanted R and GT2RS. they cannot get me one, i understand. in 2018 our group of nuts will spend close to $3mm with CJ. not all porsches.
5. why do we sell cars with very low miles? we dont get to test drive GT3/2/rs. so i have to just buy it and test it after i paid for it. ask CJ ask PNH and you can see my posts on IG, every car i own is CA plated so 10% or so after tax and reg. so there is no fkg way i can make profit, not even break even selling it. i try to not rain on other's parade, i have several GT3, and several are PTS some are msrp and one i paid $50 over, i have little patience and dont like to wait . some i ordered way early and got pushed back so i just buy one now and wait for my PTS to show up. and when it shows up i sell the non pts i paid over for. i cannot fathom why that is wrong on my part??? some ppl ask why i sell 991.2GT3. again i tried not to rain on other's parade, but if you want the truth. i hated the car. not one thing about it was good TO ME. so if you love your GT3, that's cool. but i dont like it. so i sold it.
6. someone asked why not sell to RL members and why sell to dealers so they can gouge next guy. well, i did offer to RL. see my thread? some even asked or pic which i sent but once pic sent no responses. the car is 400 miles. a dealer bought it sight unseen and cut the chk on the spot as i dropped it of. did i get my asking, no. and if you are ready to wire the money right away, make me an offer i may listen.
7. i had 2 GT4. why? well, they break, i dont like them breaking, so i keep one at the dealer so i have one available at all time when i used to track them. when i stopped tracking them, i sold them at 80k one to a friend and one to a dealer.
8. i buy and sell enough to mostly dealers, i know how much they are making on the car you all think they are "gouging" you on. u be surprised, there isn't that much in it.
9. some dealers charge more than others, that's their right. i, as consumer, can choose where to spend my money, that's my right.
10. beside GT3, do you all buy mac, audi, macan, boxster, cayman, cayenne from your dealers? well i do. and mostly with $500-1500 discount only.... that builds you some brownie points.
11. how many millions of $ in business do you refer to your dealer a year?
12. do you provide technical info to your dealer? some times i get calls from dealer's master mechanic for data... not that i know much. EX: who has the first proof of how and why GT4 gearboxes break? I DO. why? i refused warranty, i bought with my own money a new gearbox from PCNA so i can tear down the broken one and knew way before any dealer or maybe even before PAG, what the issue was. i believe i was the first GT4 with the 3rd gear issue in USA. when my friends begin to have identical symptoms, i provide the parts taken out from my bad box and mothership knew they had to warranty them. have any of you provided such evidence to support your dealer to claim warranty? oh the gearbox was $14k out of my own pocket.
13. when your dealer are in a bind for parts, were you able to provide them parts from your parts bin?
14. when your dealer's customer has a track day on a track near you and needed tires. pads, parts, you bring them to help or send your trailer to help with the wreck?
15. when your dealer is buying a car out of your backyard, do you go help verify the car is legit?
16. and yes, i actually do pay ADM as well, some of the ADM i paid, i am too embarrassed to publicize, but i am ok with it b/c i wanted the car NOW.
so let's stick to the actual events that one truly know about and not conjecture with stuff one presumes, heard or some such.
some ppl seems upset with some ppl
but some of the ppl's assumption are far from correct
1. i flip (or sell or whatever adjective you prefer) a lot of cars. most at very large losses, if selling low mile cars at loss is frowned upon , then i am guilty
2. i buy from many dealers in CA, several in TX, two on east coat and one in vegas. from my dealings with them, i know which is good. and good doesn't mean msrp dealers, i only need trhem to tell me if they have a car for me or not. i will decided if i pay up or not. if they lie, then they are not good dealer. if they tell the truth and charge up, i dont mind and i will chose whom i buy from.
3, PNH is good in telling truth. i wanted an R and a GT2RS, they told me i can't get one; understand. they have sold me at msrp many cars. but i spent over $1.5MM with them in 2018 and by end of 2018 it would be close to $2MM
4. fresno is a good dealer, again, i told CJ i wanted R and GT2RS. they cannot get me one, i understand. in 2018 our group of nuts will spend close to $3mm with CJ. not all porsches.
5. why do we sell cars with very low miles? we dont get to test drive GT3/2/rs. so i have to just buy it and test it after i paid for it. ask CJ ask PNH and you can see my posts on IG, every car i own is CA plated so 10% or so after tax and reg. so there is no fkg way i can make profit, not even break even selling it. i try to not rain on other's parade, i have several GT3, and several are PTS some are msrp and one i paid $50 over, i have little patience and dont like to wait . some i ordered way early and got pushed back so i just buy one now and wait for my PTS to show up. and when it shows up i sell the non pts i paid over for. i cannot fathom why that is wrong on my part??? some ppl ask why i sell 991.2GT3. again i tried not to rain on other's parade, but if you want the truth. i hated the car. not one thing about it was good TO ME. so if you love your GT3, that's cool. but i dont like it. so i sold it.
6. someone asked why not sell to RL members and why sell to dealers so they can gouge next guy. well, i did offer to RL. see my thread? some even asked or pic which i sent but once pic sent no responses. the car is 400 miles. a dealer bought it sight unseen and cut the chk on the spot as i dropped it of. did i get my asking, no. and if you are ready to wire the money right away, make me an offer i may listen.
7. i had 2 GT4. why? well, they break, i dont like them breaking, so i keep one at the dealer so i have one available at all time when i used to track them. when i stopped tracking them, i sold them at 80k one to a friend and one to a dealer.
8. i buy and sell enough to mostly dealers, i know how much they are making on the car you all think they are "gouging" you on. u be surprised, there isn't that much in it.
9. some dealers charge more than others, that's their right. i, as consumer, can choose where to spend my money, that's my right.
10. beside GT3, do you all buy mac, audi, macan, boxster, cayman, cayenne from your dealers? well i do. and mostly with $500-1500 discount only.... that builds you some brownie points.
11. how many millions of $ in business do you refer to your dealer a year?
12. do you provide technical info to your dealer? some times i get calls from dealer's master mechanic for data... not that i know much. EX: who has the first proof of how and why GT4 gearboxes break? I DO. why? i refused warranty, i bought with my own money a new gearbox from PCNA so i can tear down the broken one and knew way before any dealer or maybe even before PAG, what the issue was. i believe i was the first GT4 with the 3rd gear issue in USA. when my friends begin to have identical symptoms, i provide the parts taken out from my bad box and mothership knew they had to warranty them. have any of you provided such evidence to support your dealer to claim warranty? oh the gearbox was $14k out of my own pocket.
13. when your dealer are in a bind for parts, were you able to provide them parts from your parts bin?
14. when your dealer's customer has a track day on a track near you and needed tires. pads, parts, you bring them to help or send your trailer to help with the wreck?
15. when your dealer is buying a car out of your backyard, do you go help verify the car is legit?
16. and yes, i actually do pay ADM as well, some of the ADM i paid, i am too embarrassed to publicize, but i am ok with it b/c i wanted the car NOW.
so let's stick to the actual events that one truly know about and not conjecture with stuff one presumes, heard or some such.