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Another item I haven't spent too much time on in this thread...service. We offer lifetime service support on our brake kits, which includes caliper rebuilds. If and when the time comes to rebuild your AP Racing calipers, we operate the only authorized AP Racing caliper re-certification center in North America. You send us your tired and abused calipers, and we send them back to you fresh as a daisy. They are disassembled, take a bath in an ultrasonic cleaner, reassembled, and pressure tested. You barely have to get your hands dirty! Here's a shot of the master cylinder and caliper rebuild mayhem leading up to the Rolex 24 Hours at Daytona and the Daytona 500. We had AP Radi-CALs hanging from the ceiling!
What would the typical cost be today for a front caliper pair rebuild for your new AP caliper system for the GT3?
What would the typical cost be today for a front caliper pair rebuild for your new AP caliper system for the GT3?
Our service is incredibly inexpensive in the grand scheme of overall maintenance. For the front caliper pair it would be about $325 parts and labor. That's two front calipers pulled apart, cleaned, inspected, new piston seals all around, and pressure tested. The same techs rebuilding the pro calipers pictured above are the same ones who would be rebuilding them. We don't have a JV squad.
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'09 Carrera 2S, '08 Boxster LE (orange), '91 Acura NSX, Tesla Model 3 Performance, Fiesta ST
Jeff Ritter
Mgr. High Performance Division, Essex Parts Services Essex Designed AP Racing Radi-CAL Competition Brake Kits & 2-piece J Hook Discs Ferodo Racing Brake Pads Spiegler Stainless Steel Brake Lines
704-824-6030 jeff.ritter@essexparts.com
Sounds like the "golden solution" is some Essex lightweight calipers, together with the ST carbon rotors, in order to achieve:
-ease of pad switching without removing caliper
-lowest weight Combo all of all
-refurbishable rotors
I see trakcar making a run at this.
We don't have a caliper that would work with the ST carbon ceramic discs (which are the same dimensions as the OEM discs). There are several reasons why our calipers are not compatible. OEM-style discs tend to have a very tall radial depth, as does the pad that mates to them. Radial depth means the distance from the inner diameter of the disc to the outer diameter...essentially, the height of the swept area. For example, the iron OEM GT3 discs have a radial depth of 66mm. The PCCB's have a swept area that is 75mm. That is typical. Unlike a proper iron racing rotor, carbon ceramic discs typically do not have an efficient internal vane structure that flows a lot of air. For example, our iron front discs have 84 internal cooling vanes. Implementing such a design on a carbon ceramic disc would be both technically challenging and expensive/labor intensive. The OEM PCCB discs have about half as many, and they are not the same shape. Since they don't flow nearly as much air, Carbon ceramic discs (and their corresponding pads) are usually made to have as much surface area as possible to aid with the radiation of heat. That's why on just about every model of car that is offered with both iron and carbon ceramics, the carbon ceramics are considerably larger and have a larger radial depth. Conversely, our iron racing discs are incredibly efficient, and can be made with a smaller radial depth. In our case, the radial depth of our iron discs is 54mm. AP Racing doesn't have a caliper in its part bin that would run on a disc with a radial depth as large as the OEM setup. Doing so would mean that the caliper and pads were carrying around a whole bunch of unnecessary mass (as we see with the OEM setup). The efficiency of our setup allows us to remove a nice chunk of mass from an iron disc, while still supplying plenty of thermal capacity.
At this point we've dealt with carbon ceramic discs in many markets...C6 and C7 Corvette, Camaro, Audi R8 and TTRS, Ferrari, Lamborghini, and Porsche. We have several customers who tried running carbon ceramics on their fleets of exotic cars. They found that our iron discs are the only sustainable option for their cars, which are run all day on the track. The cars were constantly down for service, and the running costs of pads, disc, and brake fluid replacements were astronomical. While the carbon ceramic technology has improved, the story remains the same across all markets...carbon ceramic discs and track use are not a match made in heaven. At some point that will almost certainly change, but we are not there yet, and we are not comfortable recommending carbon ceramic discs to our customers for track use. We don't believe that current carbon ceramic technology can match iron in the track environment. Yes, the ccm discs are lighter, but they run hotter and don't have the same durability. They most certainly don't have the same long-term running costs. Our iron competition systems have been proven over millions of miles at all levels of pro motorsports, and we believe that they offer the best blend of performance, weight, and long-term running costs. If money is literally no object and you don't mind throwing piles of it at the car, then yes, carbon ceramic discs are an option to save every last pound. Ninety nine percent of customers have at least some cost consideration however, so it's not a recommendation we make or promote.
Below are some comments from our website on carbon ceramic discs:
Carbon Ceramic is NOT Carbon/Carbon
At this stage you may be saying to yourself, "But I saw that the XYZ professional race cars were running carbon brakes at the track." The carbon brakes currently being used in professional racing are carbon/carbon (abbreviated C/C), which is actually a different material vs. the carbon ceramic discs used on road cars. The carbon ceramic brake discs on road cars are a Carbon Ceramic Matrix (CCM). In recent times many professional racing series (F1, ALMS, IRL, etc.) have switched to carbon/carbon brake discs in an effort to reduce weight. Carbon/Carbon is an outstanding lightweight material for racing, but requires heat before it starts to generate usable friction. As such, they're completely ill-suited to a typical morning commute in a road car!
Iron vs. Carbon Ceramic Brake Discs
In the past few years, Carbon Ceramic brake discs have become increasingly popular on high-end sports cars as either standard equipment or as a factory installed option. Although expensive, they're a great choice for a car that is used exclusively on the street. They save a large amount of unsprung weight, they don't generate much brake dust, have low NVH, and they may even last longer than the rest of the car! For the avid track enthusiast however, they're typically not the best choice.On the racetrack, repetitive stops from high speeds generate considerably higher brake disc temperatures vs. what could ever be legally or sanely achieved on the street. Various manufacturers producing the current crop of carbon ceramic discs claim to match iron disc durability on the track, but our experience tells us otherwise. While they may be less resistant to warping or deformation at repeated elevated temperatures, the biggest problem with carbon ceramic discs is that they tend to oxidize at track temperatures, showing rough surface eruptions on the disc face. In some cases the oxidation is terminal (chopped fiber discs), and the discs must be scrapped once it occurs. In other cases (continuous fiber discs), the discs can be resurfaced, but only a limited number of times and at a cost that would be higher than buying brand new iron discs. Most carbon ceramic discs are measured in terms of minimum mass, rather than the traditional minimum thickness used to measure iron discs. Once the minimum mass is reached, the carbon ceramic disc is typically trash. Below is an oxidized carbon ceramic disc that was driven on a racetrack ten times. Notice the dark spots in which the surface is flaking off / eroding. When your disc looks like this, it has become a $2,000 paperweight!
Other Potential Pitfalls with Carbon Ceramic Discs:
Low airflow- If you look at a specific car model that offers both iron and carbon ceramic discs as an option, the carbon ceramic discs will almost always be considerably larger in overall dimension, with a specific emphasis on a tall radial depth (distance from outer disc edge to inner disc edge). Whereas an iron disc uses a web of directional internal vanes to speed airflow through the disc, most carbon ceramic discs rely primarily on their large surface area to radiate heat into the air surrounding the disc. Hence, the tall radial depth.
Expensive and limited range of compatible brake pads- There aren't many brake pad options with carbon ceramic discs. The pads must be compatible with the specific disc material being used, and if they aren't, they can destroy the discs in a hurry. Since brake pads are a very personal choice to most track junkies, carbon ceramic discs don't provide many options for the driver to chase a desired feel. Also as noted above, carbon ceramic discs tend to be very tall radially, which means very large brake pads are required. In the world of brake pads, price is usually directly proportional to size: Bigger = more expensive.
Poor feel- Experienced drivers will tell you that cast iron discs provide superior pedal feel due to less compress-ability. Some drivers find that carbon ceramic discs feel soft or abrasive at lower temperatures, but feel like stone with little modulation once they heat up. Feel and the resulting confidence is rather important when hurtling towards a guardrail at 150mph!
High replacement disc cost- Carbon ceramic replacement discs can be hideously expensive. If you do wear out or damage a disc, it can cost thousands of dollars to replace or resurface them. When running carbon ceramic discs hard on a racetrack, the odds of having to replace one or more of them increases exponentially vs. if you only drive your car on the street.
Damage-prone- Many manufactures suggest covering their carbon ceramic discs when handling them, so they are not chipped or fractured. One knock when changing a wheel can destroy a disc. Additionally, some chemical wheel cleaners or abrasives used in car detailing can damage carbon ceramic discs.
Splinters- Carbon ceramic discs shouldn't be handled with bare hands, as they can leave carbon splinters in the skin.
Greater sensitivity to burnishing/bedding-in- Most manufacturers have an explicit, and sometimes intricate, set of instructions for bedding-in their carbon ceramic discs. Iron discs can typically be prepared via a simple series of stops from 60-80 mph with the brake pad of choice.
Iron Disc Benefits
So what can AP Racing J Hook iron discs do for a car previously equipped with carbon ceramic discs?
Increased airflow and slower heat transfer to other brake components- AP Racing J Hook discs have a unique, high-count vane design that promotes airflow, heat evacuation, and rapid cooling. They don't rely on a large surface area to cool via radiation. The iron discs will move more air than your carbon ceramic's, and as a result they won't heat your brake pads, caliper pistons, and brake fluid up as quickly. You'll be able to run longer sessions without brake fade, and you'll enjoy the confidence that comes along with them. They'll also make any brake ducts that you have on the car more effective and useful.
Huge range of compatible brake pad compounds- Iron discs will open up a much greater range of available brake pads. You'll be able to achieve a different feel, and tailor your brake setup depending on your needs and environment, whether that is running an AutoX or the most demanding racetrack in your area. You'll also likely be paying less per brake pad set than you were previously, and your pads will last longer.
Inexpensive spare discs- You'll no longer have to spend thousands of dollars when it's time to replace your discs. AP Racing J Hook's typically only cost $300-600 per iron disc ring, so you won't have to stress about anything happening to them. They're inexpensive enough that you can always keep a spare set on hand, so you won't have to worry about any brake-related downtime when you're out at the track.
Durability- Iron discs can take a beating. You can stash your spares in your race trailer, and you won't have to worry about handling them, covering them, dinging them, or chipping them when changing your wheels.
As you can see, although iron discs do come with a slight weight penalty, they're still the smart choice if you run your car hard on the racetrack. They're the obvious solution that has been proven countless times on tracks around the world, at all levels of motorsport.. AP Racing J Hook Discs have been proven time and again in professional racing, winning many races and championships (ALMS, Rolex, Grand Am, etc.).
Our service is incredibly inexpensive in the grand scheme of overall maintenance. For the front caliper pair it would be about $325 parts and labor. That's two front calipers pulled apart, cleaned, inspected, new piston seals all around, and pressure tested. The same techs rebuilding the pro calipers pictured above are the same ones who would be rebuilding them. We don't have a JV squad.
Compared to the non-GT4 981, the front calipers will have a different clearance cut in them for the 991, and we're automatically including our billet pad tension bridge kit (virtually eliminates pad movement in caliper). On the rear, the piston sizes are completely different on the two chassis. The disc sizes are different on both ends of the car as well. The 981 uses our standard production discs that we buy in bulk from AP, whereas the GT3 uses a custom, smaller quantity disc. The caliper bracket designs are dramatically different between the two cars (including the material). The GT3 kit essentially looks like 'a larger version of the same thing' from its outward appearance, but there are a whole bunch of differences between the two. Also note that the pricing for the GT3 already takes into account our March 1st 2018 price increase, and the GT3 kit pricing will not change for the foreseeable future. The price of the 987/981/718 kits will increase by several hundred dollars per axle on March 1st.
Nice!
Pads
I had a customer ask me about pads via email. Pads are not included with our kit. Many of our competitors include a set of junk/cheap street pads with their brake kit. We don’t bother doing that, as it’s ultimately a disservice to the customer. Instead, we offer a heavily subsidized first set of Ferodo pads with our kits. Our recommendation for track use would be the Ferodo DS1.11. The fronts would be $200 for the set, and the rears $150. Needless to say, that is a steal for a fantastic set of pads that many owners here are already enjoying in their stock calipers.
Jeff, I love the billet pad tensioner pieces. The pads used to rattle around in the AP caliper I had on my BMW and I would have loved to have this piece. One question I have is how do you get the bridge bolts through the holes in these pieces without messing up the threads on the ends of the bolts? Obviously the spring clips will be under tension unless you separate the spring steel from the billet by taking out the two retaining screws on each tensioner. Is that the approach you recommend?
Jeff, I love the billet pad tensioner pieces. The pads used to rattle around in the AP caliper I had on my BMW and I would have loved to have this piece. One question I have is how do you get the bridge bolts through the holes in these pieces without messing up the threads on the ends of the bolts? Obviously the spring clips will be under tension unless you separate the spring steel from the billet by taking out the two retaining screws on each tensioner. Is that the approach you recommend?
Yes, from what I've seen on customer cars, the pad tension kit pretty much eradicates all rattling of the pads, which is great. The springs on top of the aluminum block have a pretty low rate. I don't know what the exact number is off the top of my head, but you definitely aren't fighting them with a lot of force when you're installing the bridge bolts. Only a small amount of pressure is required to hold them in place. There's actually not much vertical load on the pads in that direction, so a lot of tension isn't required. Also, the bridge bolts are only threaded on the ends, so there's not a whole lot of thread to munch if someone ham-handed is working with them.
I've definitely seen some bridge designs that turn into a wrestling match. The StopTech ST-60 comes to mind, which I had on my Corvette when I worked there. The bridge on that caliper is very long and has four bolts. That thing could be a real bear after you heat cycled the calipers a bunch of times on track. I also find the AP Racing configuration much easier than a lot of the tension springs/ pin combos found in OEM fixed calipers. Many of those require you to punch them out from the inboard side of the caliper, and it's tough to maneuver tools on the inboard side. Then that darn H spring shoots you in the face when the pin slips out and it lets go...zing, right in the kisser...Good times!
All configurations of the bridge on the Pro5000R range are incredibly easy to service. I honestly don't think I know of a single person who has had any problems with them, messed one up, stripped the threads in the caliper, etc. You won't need to separate the spring piece from the billet block, just remove the bridge bolts as normal. I don't think you'll have any troubles.
When we designed those pieces I kept thinking of Wall-E, or ET wearing the wig!
Yes, from what I've seen on customer cars, the pad tension kit pretty much eradicates all rattling of the pads, which is great. The springs on top of the aluminum block have a pretty low rate. I don't know what the exact number is off the top of my head, but you definitely aren't fighting them with a lot of force when you're installing the bridge bolts. Only a small amount of pressure is required to hold them in place. There's actually not much vertical load on the pads in that direction, so a lot of tension isn't required. Also, the bridge bolts are only threaded on the ends, so there's not a whole lot of thread to munch if someone ham-handed is working with them.
I've definitely seen some bridge designs that turn into a wrestling match. The StopTech ST-60 comes to mind, which I had on my Corvette when I worked there. The bridge on that caliper is very long and has four bolts. That thing could be a real bear after you heat cycled the calipers a bunch of times on track. I also find the AP Racing configuration much easier than a lot of the tension springs/ pin combos found in OEM fixed calipers. Many of those require you to punch them out from the inboard side of the caliper, and it's tough to maneuver tools on the inboard side. Then that darn H spring shoots you in the face when the pin slips out and it lets go...zing, right in the kisser...Good times!
All configurations of the bridge on the Pro5000R range are incredibly easy to service. I honestly don't think I know of a single person who has had any problems with them, messed one up, stripped the threads in the caliper, etc. You won't need to separate the spring piece from the billet block, just remove the bridge bolts as normal. I don't think you'll have any troubles.
When we designed those pieces I kept thinking of Wall-E, or ET wearing the wig!
I do see the resemblance! Thank you for the explanation Jeff.
Here are some comparative shots of our prototype disc/hat lined up vs. OEM. The OEM discs are a dual-cast design, which essentially means a separate hat and iron disc ring are formed as two separate pieces, and then cast together. The goal with these discs is to provide some of the benefits of a two-piece floating/racing disc, while still being able to resist the road salt/corrosion issues aluminum disc hats can have. The amount of float in these discs will be more limited than a true racing design, and as you can see in the pics, the 'arms' used to attach the hat to the disc partially obscure airflow into some of the vanes. The dual-cast design also weighs more than our fully floating 2-piece design.Cooling air enters into the back side of the disc, and brake ducts promote that airflow even further. As you can see in the pics below, the dual-cast hat design blocks considerably more airflow into the disc when compared to the AP Racing design.
Front Discs
A wide air gap and 84 directional curved vanes on the AP Racing disc vs. 60 split vanes
The back of the AP Racing disc offers a much clearer path for cooling air to enter the internal vanes. You can also see the gaps by which cooling air can flow through the hat and across the outer disc face.
As we all know by this point, drilled discs don't like heavy track use. The cracks start at the holes and continue expanding from there.
Reservations and order fulfillment
All of our kit components are continuing to trickle in from AP. Based on our current status, we expect the first batch of kits to ship during the first week of April. If you have already contacted us to hold a reservation, one of our sales people will be reaching out to you within the next week or so to collect all of your order details and payment info. If you see a number with a 704 area code, that's likely us. Again, you won't be charged a dime until the day your kit actually ships out the door.
If you haven't yet reserved a kit and you'd like one this spring, I'd recommend getting your reservation in ASAP. We are getting fairly close to selling out our first wave/batch of kits, and AP is incredibly busy with pro racing season underway. It may be a little while before we see another batch of components.
More Component Details
The completed brake kit listings are now live on our website. You can see lots of details about every facet of our kit via these links:
Wheel Fitment
Some additional notes on wheel fitment:
Our front and rear kit clear the OEM 20" wheels without spacer, and plenty of room to spare.
If your wheel spokes clear your OEM iron brakes, they will clear our front brake kit. The outside face of our front caliper actually sits inboard of the OEM iron setup. Again, that is wheel spokes. Our kit is going to stick out slightly further towards the wheel barrel than the OEM iron brakes, but it should still clear plenty of 19" wheels. I'll find out what exactly that number is, but we're only talking about a couple of mm.
Essex is not responsible for wheel fitment. If in doubt, please use our wheel fitment templates in the links below to check wheel clearance. Print the template, use a ruler to confirm that your printer didn't scale the size, tape or glue it to some cardboard, and place it in the wheel as shown in the photo below.
Late last week we started calling those of you who have a reservation for one of our brake kits. If requested a slot and you haven't heard from us yet, expect to hear from us this week as we work down the list.
In other Essex news...
Our Essex President, Ken Gordon, was recently interviewed by The Brake Report. This video gives some great insight into our lengthy company history, the success our customers have had at all levels of racing, and why they keep coming back to Essex for brake solutions and advice. You can see the video here: https://thebrakereport.com/episode-2...-services-inc/
The most recent two NASCAR Cup races were both won by cars equipped with the AP Racing Radi-CAL. In Atlanta, AP-equipped cars swept the podium, and in Vegas this weekend they grabbed a win and 7 out of the top 10.
Finally, here's a cool graphic from AP Racing that shows the pro racing series in which they won a championship in 2017 with their brake or clutch components. Not too shabby!
It's been a long road, but we will start shipping the first wave of pre-orders today and tomorrow! Thank you so much to those of you who pre-ordered. You have (or your installation shop has) already gotten a call from one of our sales people about the kit. They turned out beautifully, and we're really excited to see them on cars and doing their thing out on the racetrack! The installation process is fairly straightforward, and our instructions are robust with detailed pics and info. If you do run into any issues you can always feel free to PM me, email me, or call us at 704-824-six zero three zero from 8am-5pm ET Mon-Fri. We think you're going to be impressed with the performance, serviceability, and running costs of our system.
I'd like to keep this thread running with questions, comments, etc., so please be sure to post some pics and feedback in this thread once you have yours installed!
Below are some pics of the production kit installed on our local customer's car, along with a few other pics of our launch preparations. We'll be sure to snap some more of the car on the ground with the kit installed.
One more note for those of you who are going to be installing and beating up on our brake kits soon.
Thermal Shock
Thermal shock is what kills iron discs. Many people believe that high temperatures are what causes discs to crack. That isn't actually the case. Iron disc rings can run all day at ridiculously high temperatures without issue. The rapid expansion and contraction of iron disc rings is what causes them to crack. In an ideal world you would be able to gradually bring your brake discs up to track temperature, keep them at that one temperature the entire session, and then gradually cool them down. Also of note, brake pad mu (aka coefficient of friction / bite) changes with temperature. If you were able to keep your pads running at a constant temperature, you would have a more consistent and repeatable brake response. Race teams attempt to do this via managing their brake ducts. Depending on the track layout, they'll tape off the front ducts partially, completely, or leave them wide open. What they're trying to do is control cooling airflow to limit wild temperature swings in the disc. With a production car, it's pretty much impossible to implement a duct setup that is as effective as what can be done on a professional race car. Most of that is due to packaging issues.
There is something that you can do to limit the stress on your discs: Try not to slam the discs with a boatload of stress and heat on the very first lap of a session, particularly when the discs are brand new and entering their first heat cycle. If you want the greatest life out of them, it's unwise to go full-blast on a disc on any first lap, even after it's been used a while. To get the greatest life out of your disc, you're going to want to warm them up and cool them down. I tell people to think of discs just like race tires. Do the first lap or two at increasing speed to bring the brakes up to temp, do a cool-down lap to gradually bring them back down in temp, and don't engage your parking brake when you park in the pits after a track session (you risk fusing your pad to your disc face and leaving an impression of pad material). If you treat your discs right, you'll be rewarded with a longer service life out of them.
Below are some pics of the production kit installed on our local customer's car, along with a few other pics of our launch preparations. We'll be sure to snap some more of the car on the ground with the kit installed.
Very nice! Please post more pics of the other hardware that comes with the system (the final production brackets, brake lines, bolts, etc.).
02-20-2018, 06:52 PM
