qbix

Ok, still going forth and back with regards to yellow calipers (combo with MB color) and considering PCCB. As silly as it may sound I would opt them for having piece of mind with painting red to yellows and I would also be happy to try latest and greatest ;-)
Ater PCCBs are done around a track I would replace them with steel rotors. Or hunt in the meantime for PCCBs bargains. It does happen.
The question is if that bigger weight of steels 410mm vs 380mm will not be a huge anchor for this car? Are there pads available for the bigger calipers designed to work with PCCBs?
Any weight data of aftermarket replacement?
What are your thoughts?

GrantG

I don't think they PCCB's use a larger pad - if anything, they might be 1mm thinner each to work with the 2mm thicker rotor. Yes, 410mm x 36mm iron rotors will be quite heavy (with the majority of the weight far from the radius.

Sloopy

About 10lb per corner or 40lb overall. I have driven both back to back and can feel the difference in ride quality.

If tracking though steels are cheaper. There would have have to be a differance in peformane but have rarely heard of someone documenting.

ajw45

That's cool, always wanted to try back to back. What difference do you notice in the ride/handling?

Para82

11lbs per corner and the difference is night and day. I have driven quite a few 997 with steel rotors and it felt sluggish to me in comparison (coming from 96,489 miles of driving a PCCB 997S). Having said that the steel rotors are definitely less costly if you track the car heavily.

Sloopy

What he said!!!

GrantG

If the difference between PCCB and the 380 x 34 stock iron rotors is 11 pounds per corner, how much is the difference between PCCB and the iron replacement 410 x 36? Must be much more...

On 997S, the difference would be considerably smaller as the stock rotors are smaller than GT3 units...

AutoQuest Motorsports

We've seen steel versus ceramic brake systems on these cars weight up to a difference of 48lbs. This does make a noticeable difference in handling performance, although we can understand how people can sacrifice that for the reduced maintenance of steels from a cost standpoint. However, the days of comparing costs to $25k PCCB rotors as the only ceramic option is over. Enter Surface Transforms Rotors.

They are standard equipment on the Koenigsegg Agera/Regera models, BAC Mono, NIO EP9, and the upcoming Aston Martin Valkyrie. They are available as OEM replacements for a range of of Porsche, Ferrari, Aston Martin, Rolls Royce, and the Nissan GTR.

We are their USA/North American distributor.

Surface Transforms Rotors are half the price of the PCCBs at $11,998 for a full set, and utilize the existing calipers regardless of factory steel or PCCB. They have a much lower operating temperature that increases pads and rotor longevity, and they have a more progressive pedal feel. In keeping with ceramic, you also maintain less rotational mass/unsprung weight (up to about 48lbs), which does make a difference in track performance versus switching to steels. Think of it like running an obstacle course with pool floaties on instead of 10lb weights on your wrists and ankles.

The cherry on top of all this is the unique way they go about their carbon ceramic manufacturing process...they are REFURBISHABLE up to an average of 4-5 times, and you receive the same amount of longevity between each refurbishment as the first time you use the rotors (which the first time is typically longer than the whole life of PCCB rotors).

Give me a call if you'd like more information on the ST rotors or would like to purchase a set. We typically have them in stock ready to ship for select models.

qbix

Thanks for the info. What is different in their construction that they last longer and operate in lower temps?

What is the procedure to check whether they need to be refurbished?

What is the cost of refurbishing?

That sounds like a good option :-)

AutoQuest Motorsports

How to tell when it is ready for replacement would require reviewing a PDF file I have available with pictures of oxidation and friction surface wear to compare, or simply taking some pictures and sending them over to us to review for you. The refurbishment process costs $2k per occurrence, rather than $25k per occurrence with PCCB's since you have to replace them. For your other questions I took some excerpts from the ST release I'm working on for you to reference.



Unlike conventional ceramic rotor manufacturing processes using discontinuous (chopped) carbon fiber held together by a silicon resin, Surface Transforms rotors are made from unidirectional carbon sheets that are layered in alternating directions (similar to making plywood). After each layer is applied, an oscillating machine is used to push and pull a bed of barbed needles through the sheet material to interweave them together. This carbon fiber pre-form is then put through a chemical infusion process that grows the carbon into the rotor. The thermal conductivity is then further improved by heating it up to over 2000°C which generates an even more heat-conductive graphitic structure. The carbon rotor blank is then CNC machined into shape and a liquid silicon metal mixture infiltrated into the carbon blank to fill the entire carbon structure. The silicon is then reacted with the carbon to create the silicon carbide matrix that holds the now carbon ceramic together. This is followed by final machining and balancing, and by the application of the protective coating on the rotor to prevent oxidation. Final assembly then takes place with the rotor hat and it is boxed up and shipped out.

ST rotors use a CVI (chemical vaper infiltration) process that is a way of growing a particular type of carbon that is highly ordered with a much higher level of conductivity. They also use a heat treatment process that increases that conductivity further. This means their rotors conduct heat through the rotor material 3x quicker than conventional carbon ceramic rotors, so during the “cooldown phase” their rotors are able to get the heat from the surface, through the vent hole and away from the rotor 3x faster. Because of this, their rotors run a much cooler average temperature than the conventional rotors. Surface Transforms also applies a liquid solution which attaches to the carbon atoms, effectively stopping the carbon from oxidizing at high temperatures, and protecting the disc from wear up to 700 degrees Celsius. This means that during typical operating temperatures on track the life of the rotor is significantly improved. Only as you crest over 700 degrees Celsius do you start to oxidize the outer layer the rotor. This is why Surface Transforms rotors (and the pads used) last a noticeable amount longer than that of the conventional carbon ceramic rotors.

Refurbishable

Contrary to Surface Transform rotors, conventional carbon ceramic rotors have a service life that is dependent on the weight of the rotor due to the amount of carbon loss from oxidation. This comes along quickly in their life cycle due a manufacturing process that allows oxidation throughout the whole rotor. The reason that conventional rotors are weighed during a brake check is because their end-of-life is defined by the safe operating strength of the material, which is measured by the weight-loss of carbon that has oxidized from the whole rotor. The fact that the entire rotor oxidizes carbon and has chopped carbon ceramic composition means that it is no longer strong enough to reuse, and cannot be resurfaced. On the other hand, Surface Transforms’ layered carbon ceramic composition oxidizes carbon much slower at a much higher average temperature, hence the reason they initially last much longer than conventional rotors. In addition, this carbon oxidation is restricted to the friction surface of the rotor which maintains the rotor’s strength. Therefore unlike conventional rotors, the retained strength and unique composition allows them to be refurbished by removing the oxidized outer layer and reapplying the anti-oxidation protective coating. This resets the life of the rotor back to zero, and depending on the depth of oxidation damage to the rotor surface, this can be done an average of 4 to 5 times.

WernerE

Iron brakes, not steel. Not sure why many have difficulty with this distinction. People seem to be able to make distinctions with aluminum vs. steel (carbon fiber vs. plastic, etc.). Iron is an element. Steel is an alloy.

Dr.Bill

For the cost of the PCCB's, you could paint your calipers yellow every month for several years if that's your main goal.

qbix

Yes, I know. I need to have yellow calipers regardless but why not to get PCCBs at the same time if aftermarket options exist and are not that expensive. PCCB are apparently superior to iron brakes so why not to spec them if one doesn't mind the cost?

I am not sure neither if painting it yourself would give same results as the OEM quality and finish. At this price tag the last thing I would like to see is peeling off clear coat or calipers in different shades of yellow from track use...


Can you please confirm that 500usd per corner is the total cost? No hidden costs like hardware, hub, etc replacement?

Any data how they hold up around tracks?

Thanks a lot for the info!

tstafford

I have iron on my RS and like them for the obvious reasons.

That said I've driven an RS with PCCB at Barber and there's no doubt that the brake feel is superior. They're better. They're also more expensive.

If money was truly no object I'd have PCCB for the track. But it's not and I don't.

Oldmxnut

I have done a bit of homework on this last six months so won't comment on after market options, but Ive summarised in my mind to two basic choices:

PCCB - Less dust production, better resale, performance is related to driver perception/ability. Can track 3-5 times a year, for short periods with plenty of cool down. Minimal replacement costs as will last. Tyres will cost you more, short of getting a stone stuck in one etc.

Steel - Generate more wheel dust, show rust etc with a bit of moisture around, noticeable performance difference again driver ability related. But a must have if tracking medium to heavy and for extended periods.

I think trying to have one and achieve the benefits of the other or vs / vs is always going to be a challenge.