Snap oversteer question
12-03-2017, 12:31 PM
#1
Instructor
Thread Starter
Snap oversteer question
The old cliche is that with the 911 engine being out the back you should avoid lifting off the throttle while cornering to avoid snap oversteer. What I haven’t heard is how one is supposed to correct when you’ve already got yourself into a sticky situation that requires you to scrub speed. For example, if you turn in too early and find yourself after the apex heading towards putting a couple wheels off the outside of the track, how do you get out of that situation without lifting? Or is it really that if you get into that kind of trouble with these cars in the first place there isn’t a script for getting out of trouble?
I ask because in my first track day in a new 911 I turned in too early to a kink on a track and at about 100 mph I was looking at going too wide on exit. I don’t remember exactly how it happened, but I assume I must’ve lifted while turning (only moderately turning), and the backend came out. I managed to countersteer and avoided a spin but I wound up fistailing back and forth for wild snappy and frightening few seconds.
Appreciate your insight, particularly from those who have substantial track experience.
I ask because in my first track day in a new 911 I turned in too early to a kink on a track and at about 100 mph I was looking at going too wide on exit. I don’t remember exactly how it happened, but I assume I must’ve lifted while turning (only moderately turning), and the backend came out. I managed to countersteer and avoided a spin but I wound up fistailing back and forth for wild snappy and frightening few seconds.
Appreciate your insight, particularly from those who have substantial track experience.
12-03-2017, 01:32 PM
#2
You might get more replies in the performance driving forum but in general if you are already past apex on a sweeper and going wide best to hold neutral throttle and ride it out. Often no harm putting 2 wheels off if throttle is neutral and wheel straightened. Tendency is to get scared and lift while adding more steering input which is recipe for a spin.
12-03-2017, 01:39 PM
#3
There are other tricks the really good drivers may try (inducing understeer to scrub speed or accept the oversteer drift to scrub speed) but for most of us the fewer inputs the better.
12-03-2017, 02:01 PM
#4
If you haven’t taken a course in drifting yet i highly reccomend. Im not a pro driver/ track rat but do track sometimes and all i can say is the drifting and power sliding courses i have taken have made me a so much better driver in similar situations to what you mentioned. Going to say snappy/blunt inputs is what made your situation worse. The course I mentioned helps you learn to control your urges to do such things The only snap inputs are the beginning of drift/power slide
12-03-2017, 02:40 PM
#5
Rennlist Member
I've driven older 911's, even a 930 turbo in the distant past, and the newer 911's have had that "snap" oversteer engineered out. In the situation you described, you would not have been able to recover if you were driving the older 911's. Anyhow, in the situation you described, you turned in too early, had too much speed to stay on track, and your back end stepped out. The "OH S##T" moment most of us track rats have experienced. It happens, whether it's a 911 or not. You've gotten good advice above: fast hands, throttle neutral to recover, both feet in if all else fails. If you sense that you're too fast and that the rear end may step out, go ahead an drop two wheels off the track, and stay out until the speed drops. A frequent rookie mistake is to try to get back on track while still at speed. And keep driving, get your "but sensor" honed and sensitized. Doing autocross can help, where you can get sideways at slow speeds and only hit cones. Drive 7/10th's on the big track, and you'll tame that 911 in no time!!
12-03-2017, 02:47 PM
#6
Instructor
Thread Starter
If you haven’t taken a course in drifting yet i highly reccomend. Im not a pro driver/ track rat but do track sometimes and all i can say is the drifting and power sliding courses i have taken have made me a so much better driver in similar situations to what you mentioned. Going to say snappy/blunt inputs is what made your situation worse. The course I mentioned helps you learn to control your urges to do such things The only snap inputs are the beginning of drift/power slide
12-03-2017, 02:58 PM
#7
Trending Topics
12-03-2017, 03:14 PM
#8
This isn’t useful for recovering once things go sideways but may help avoid getting there in the first place.
One concept that stuck with me from the Green Group classroom sessions was the safety aspect of choosing a late apex vs an early one.
The tendency for a beginner is to turn in too early. The result of that can be a catastrophe.
If you make a conscious effort to have patience and go for a late apex, if you muck it up, you’ve got a much bigger margin of error on the exit.
The more familiar you get with the corner, the more you can back it up to where you want to be. Safely.
One concept that stuck with me from the Green Group classroom sessions was the safety aspect of choosing a late apex vs an early one.
The tendency for a beginner is to turn in too early. The result of that can be a catastrophe.
If you make a conscious effort to have patience and go for a late apex, if you muck it up, you’ve got a much bigger margin of error on the exit.
The more familiar you get with the corner, the more you can back it up to where you want to be. Safely.
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Rxpert (06-19-2022)
12-03-2017, 03:36 PM
#9
Racer
I whole heartedly recommend Naoki: http://drift101.com/ He does classes out at WIllow Springs
Doing a few drift and rally classes has given me far more car control and confidence on track
Doing a few drift and rally classes has given me far more car control and confidence on track
12-03-2017, 03:58 PM
#10
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The old cliche is that with the 911 engine being out the back you should avoid lifting off the throttle while cornering to avoid snap oversteer. What I haven’t heard is how one is supposed to correct when you’ve already got yourself into a sticky situation that requires you to scrub speed. For example, if you turn in too early and find yourself after the apex heading towards putting a couple wheels off the outside of the track, how do you get out of that situation without lifting? Or is it really that if you get into that kind of trouble with these cars in the first place there isn’t a script for getting out of trouble?
I ask because in my first track day in a new 911 I turned in too early to a kink on a track and at about 100 mph I was looking at going too wide on exit. I don’t remember exactly how it happened, but I assume I must’ve lifted while turning (only moderately turning), and the backend came out. I managed to countersteer and avoided a spin but I wound up fistailing back and forth for wild snappy and frightening few seconds.
Appreciate your insight, particularly from those who have substantial track experience.
I ask because in my first track day in a new 911 I turned in too early to a kink on a track and at about 100 mph I was looking at going too wide on exit. I don’t remember exactly how it happened, but I assume I must’ve lifted while turning (only moderately turning), and the backend came out. I managed to countersteer and avoided a spin but I wound up fistailing back and forth for wild snappy and frightening few seconds.
Appreciate your insight, particularly from those who have substantial track experience.
Lift slightly, just enough to tighten the arch without rear end sliding, WITHOUT tightening the steering at the same time (these two inputs compound, hence spin if both done simultaneously). Then, if rear end does not slide, you can then gradually add more steering as the car slows and will likely make the turn just fine, but with slower than optimal exit - a small price to pay for a mistake. Be prepared to countersteer if the rear slides out, but if you do everything gradually, oversteer will also be gradual and easily correctable. It may actually even be helpful to make the turn. As simple as that. Turning in early, even at 10/10, is usually not a sealed fate situation if you know what to do and keep your cool.
Now, if you feel like you cannot make the turn anyway, ditch it. Here is how to do it correctly - 1) make the decision quickly - the sooner you decide to do it, the safer it will be; 2) optimize towards the end goal to leave the track on the outside, with the following conditions met (in order of priority): a) no sliding, otherwise you may roll; b) steering wheel straight (or you can spin and roll); c) trajectory as close to parallel to the edge of the track as possible (minimizes probability of hitting anything); d) lowest possible speed. Note that the speed is the last in the list. Why? Because if you do everything else well, you will have enough space to safely slow down. Many try to shave as much speed as possible before leaving the track surface and end up losing control and rolling or shooting back across the track. The typical ditching process would be open the wheel to straight or almost straight putting the car towards a long clear path to the outside, and once the car unloads, floor the brake into the ABS.
Now, someone more experienced could induce progressive oversteer with a quicker lift and then stop oversteer with gradual throttle application, and thus lose very little speed in the process. Or in the extreme case it's sometimes possible to save it by quickly stabbing the brake - when done right, it overwhelms front tires thus not causing oversteer but rather scrubbing some speed with all 4 wheels sliding to the outside. But both methods are too risky if you have not done it many times before in a very safe environment.
Which brings me to the practice part. Forget drifting school for now - it's a different skill - would be like practicing ski jump to be able to deal with skiing over bumps better. Do skidpad or autocross with an instructor. Many clubs (Porsche, BMW etc) offer that either together with the track days, as a practice between sessions, or in separate events. It's well worth it.
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911T4ME (10-23-2022)
12-03-2017, 04:32 PM
#11
Rennlist Member
This is recommendation appropriate for beginner-intermediate level, and someone who can feel the car like a part of their own body would do something different, but it would be too risky for most casual track drivers to try.
Lift slightly, just enough to tighten the arch without rear end sliding, WITHOUT tightening the steering at the same time (these two inputs compound, hence spin if both done simultaneously). Then, if rear end does not slide, you can then gradually add more steering as the car slows and will likely make the turn just fine, but with slower than optimal exit - a small price to pay for a mistake. Be prepared to countersteer if the rear slides out, but if you do everything gradually, oversteer will also be gradual and easily correctable. It may actually even be helpful to make the turn. As simple as that. Turning in early, even at 10/10, is usually not a sealed fate situation if you know what to do and keep your cool.
Now, if you feel like you cannot make the turn anyway, ditch it. Here is how to do it correctly - 1) make the decision quickly - the sooner you decide to do it, the safer it will be; 2) optimize towards the end goal to leave the track on the outside, with the following conditions met (in order of priority): a) no sliding, otherwise you may roll; b) steering wheel straight (or you can spin and roll); c) trajectory as close to parallel to the edge of the track as possible (minimizes probability of hitting anything); d) lowest possible speed. Note that the speed is the last in the list. Why? Because if you do everything else well, you will have enough space to safely slow down. Many try to shave as much speed as possible before leaving the track surface and end up losing control and rolling or shooting back across the track. The typical ditching process would be open the wheel to straight or almost straight putting the car towards a long clear path to the outside, and once the car unloads, floor the brake into the ABS.
Now, someone more experienced could induce progressive oversteer with a quicker lift and then stop oversteer with gradual throttle application, and thus lose very little speed in the process. Or in the extreme case it's sometimes possible to save it by quickly stabbing the brake - when done right, it overwhelms front tires thus not causing oversteer but rather scrubbing some speed with all 4 wheels sliding to the outside. But both methods are too risky if you have not done it many times before in a very safe environment.
Which brings me to the practice part. Forget drifting school for now - it's a different skill - would be like practicing ski jump to be able to deal with skiing over bumps better. Do skidpad or autocross with an instructor. Many clubs (Porsche, BMW etc) offer that either together with the track days, as a practice between sessions, or in separate events. It's well worth it.
Lift slightly, just enough to tighten the arch without rear end sliding, WITHOUT tightening the steering at the same time (these two inputs compound, hence spin if both done simultaneously). Then, if rear end does not slide, you can then gradually add more steering as the car slows and will likely make the turn just fine, but with slower than optimal exit - a small price to pay for a mistake. Be prepared to countersteer if the rear slides out, but if you do everything gradually, oversteer will also be gradual and easily correctable. It may actually even be helpful to make the turn. As simple as that. Turning in early, even at 10/10, is usually not a sealed fate situation if you know what to do and keep your cool.
Now, if you feel like you cannot make the turn anyway, ditch it. Here is how to do it correctly - 1) make the decision quickly - the sooner you decide to do it, the safer it will be; 2) optimize towards the end goal to leave the track on the outside, with the following conditions met (in order of priority): a) no sliding, otherwise you may roll; b) steering wheel straight (or you can spin and roll); c) trajectory as close to parallel to the edge of the track as possible (minimizes probability of hitting anything); d) lowest possible speed. Note that the speed is the last in the list. Why? Because if you do everything else well, you will have enough space to safely slow down. Many try to shave as much speed as possible before leaving the track surface and end up losing control and rolling or shooting back across the track. The typical ditching process would be open the wheel to straight or almost straight putting the car towards a long clear path to the outside, and once the car unloads, floor the brake into the ABS.
Now, someone more experienced could induce progressive oversteer with a quicker lift and then stop oversteer with gradual throttle application, and thus lose very little speed in the process. Or in the extreme case it's sometimes possible to save it by quickly stabbing the brake - when done right, it overwhelms front tires thus not causing oversteer but rather scrubbing some speed with all 4 wheels sliding to the outside. But both methods are too risky if you have not done it many times before in a very safe environment.
Which brings me to the practice part. Forget drifting school for now - it's a different skill - would be like practicing ski jump to be able to deal with skiing over bumps better. Do skidpad or autocross with an instructor. Many clubs (Porsche, BMW etc) offer that either together with the track days, as a practice between sessions, or in separate events. It's well worth it.
Here is a video of my back end going out in a 911, a 996. With years of of practice, my butt sensor warned me that my back will go out because of sudden unexpected rain and I prepared for it, then autocross and skid pad experience made me do what needed to get done without thinking about it. Also, I was lucky. LOL!
Last edited by Palting; 12-03-2017 at 04:53 PM.
12-03-2017, 05:02 PM
#12
One other thing to try is the PECLA class, they have a couple different exercises within that gives you time on the skidpad. When I was there I told the instructor I wanted to specifically focus on those type of situations. The classes are a little pricey though.
12-03-2017, 05:07 PM
#13
Drifting lessons started on the skidpad fyi Off topic Tire rack holds ice drifting in Colorado. Heard about it from my drifting instructor during another lesson. Think i may go this year.
Manufacturer weekends are awesome as well. The ones with pro drivers. Have done it several times with jaguar. Even though the lead follow is boring the rest of the driving is awesome. Includes drifiting,sliding, skid pad, autocross, and putting in your own hot laps. And it was nice that they break you up after day 1 based on your skill level. Got to drive with davy jones as my passenger/instructor for a full weekend. Top it off they bring the cars, they bring the tires,brakes, personnel etc
Manufacturer weekends are awesome as well. The ones with pro drivers. Have done it several times with jaguar. Even though the lead follow is boring the rest of the driving is awesome. Includes drifiting,sliding, skid pad, autocross, and putting in your own hot laps. And it was nice that they break you up after day 1 based on your skill level. Got to drive with davy jones as my passenger/instructor for a full weekend. Top it off they bring the cars, they bring the tires,brakes, personnel etc
12-03-2017, 05:45 PM
#14
Front
2.23 Camber
Toe 0.10
Rear
Camber 2.20
Toe 0.10
Rear Bar Full Stiff
Front Middle
Tyres 2.0 Bar Hot
Ride height
- 15mm Front
- 12mm Rear
Part Nos for Shims
996 341 543 91
996 342 543 99
Car now turns in nicely with plenty of feel on the front, and the back end now feels complexly planted under load when exiting corners, before used to snap out.. No darting from very high speed under braking also.
12-03-2017, 06:30 PM
#15
As others mentioned, the "don't lift" cliche is mainly for the older cars, where they had a mechanical design flaw causing the rear tires to go from negative camber to positive upon lifting, guaranteeing a bad experience. It is not just a function of rear engine placement. The newer generatioins are much easier to drive but coached lessons, practice and advice above are all needed.
