991.1 GT3 COG: Our Meeting with PCNA/PAG plus Porsche's Official Announcement
10-10-2018, 08:55 PM
#451
The redesign of the .2 engine happened before we even contacted them. The .2 was just the next evolution of the engine. Then they went back and figured out the problem and fix for the .1. I have no idea why showing us a head would matter. The problem was one of metallurgy. Please go read this thread again. All this was covered.
All metal has inclusions in it. The followers seen in pictures that failed, failed not because of inclusions, but inclusions would have being present. The reason I ask if you were shown a cylinder head is, had you, you would clearly see and quickly understand the real issue. The Hydraulic fingers are "pushed" under hydraulic pressure hard into the camshaft. You have to have clearance between the finger and the camshaft for oil to remove the heat generated and lubricate two steel parts sliding against one another. You would have also seen that the cylinder head has oiling valves only on the bottom side of the head, the exhaust side and with two camshafts and other parts in the way, none of this oil can get to the critical parts to do its work.
These faults were "corrected" in the .2 engine because they wanted the .2 engine to be more racy??
But as you suggest, none of this should be of any concern to most as the extended warranty make its a slam dunk if any issues arise.
10-10-2018, 10:38 PM
#452
Race Director
Thread Starter
I'm glad you are confident in what you were told. I'm not trying to disagree, merely trying to expand the idea that maybe you were not told the truth.
All metal has inclusions in it. The followers seen in pictures that failed, failed not because of inclusions, but inclusions would have being present. The reason I ask if you were shown a cylinder head is, had you, you would clearly see and quickly understand the real issue. The Hydraulic fingers are "pushed" under hydraulic pressure hard into the camshaft. You have to have clearance between the finger and the camshaft for oil to remove the heat generated and lubricate two steel parts sliding against one another. You would have also seen that the cylinder head has oiling valves only on the bottom side of the head, the exhaust side and with two camshafts and other parts in the way, none of this oil can get to the critical parts to do its work.
These faults were "corrected" in the .2 engine because they wanted the .2 engine to be more racy??
But as you suggest, none of this should be of any concern to most as the extended warranty make its a slam dunk if any issues arise.
All metal has inclusions in it. The followers seen in pictures that failed, failed not because of inclusions, but inclusions would have being present. The reason I ask if you were shown a cylinder head is, had you, you would clearly see and quickly understand the real issue. The Hydraulic fingers are "pushed" under hydraulic pressure hard into the camshaft. You have to have clearance between the finger and the camshaft for oil to remove the heat generated and lubricate two steel parts sliding against one another. You would have also seen that the cylinder head has oiling valves only on the bottom side of the head, the exhaust side and with two camshafts and other parts in the way, none of this oil can get to the critical parts to do its work.
These faults were "corrected" in the .2 engine because they wanted the .2 engine to be more racy??
But as you suggest, none of this should be of any concern to most as the extended warranty make its a slam dunk if any issues arise.
I am not naive, but i am also not cynical. Porsche didn’t try to blow smoke up our asses. They were open, honest, humble and went above and beyond to make things right. I have no reason to believe they would lie, and the data they showed us supported what they were saying. Actual experience from car owners supports what they are saying.
That is good enough for me. I have moved on and continue to enjoy the car. It is brilliant.
10-11-2018, 01:37 AM
#453
Oh, i know how a cylinder heads works. I just didn’t need to see one to believe PAG. What you are describing, if that was the issue, would have caused all engines to fail. Are we REALLY supposed to believe that Porsche somehow forgot how to design top ends? And the RS, with a very similar design, does not exhibit this problem at all? The bottom line is this. Some finger followers were defective, and that is why some people went through 2-3 engines before they even hit 10,000 miles. And others, like myself, are closing in on 30k miles without an issue. I have heard a few people mention it is all about oiling, and the lack of an oil film forming at the interface, but I think Porsche knows a “little bit more” than they do. Porsche’s body of work over decades tells me they are the experts.
I am not naive, but i am also not cynical. Porsche didn’t try to blow smoke up our asses. They were open, honest, humble and went above and beyond to make things right. I have no reason to believe they would lie, and the data they showed us supported what they were saying. Actual experience from car owners supports what they are saying.
That is good enough for me. I have moved on and continue to enjoy the car. It is brilliant.
So here goes.
What is in play here is human behavior. People will believe what they want to often against logic and facts because they either made a bad decision or have a lot of money tied up.
Porsche made a mistake in their design and will do whatever they have to, to hold the customer base from straying from the brand. The cost of a recall would be huge and playing the warranty numbers is far less expensive. Would they tell you if they made a mistake? Or would they bring over the head of racing and development to put on a dog and pony to keep the customer base happy?
Why did they redesign the whole valve train if there was nothing wrong with the .1 design. If it was only an inclusion and coating issue, the cost of changing this is tiny compared to a design change. The whole valve train went from hydraulic to solid and this was to make the engine more racy? Why the racy reason? Maybe they did not want to say the real reason and thought GT3 owners would want a more racy engine. Ask any .2 owner and ask him or her if they can feel the car more racy because it has a solid valve train? Going from Hydraulic to solid is not a simple change. Its a huge change. Why would you go to solids when hydraulic typically lends its self to street engines. The 996 and 997 both went thru .2 updates but neither had a complete valve train redesign?
If you were in their shoes and were confident the problem was solved, why the 10 warranty? They bought their customers loyalty when they could not fix the problem. Classic case of kicking the can down the road. Don't show the assembled few the real fault and cause and only show what you want them to see and know. Classic legal defense if ever I have seen one.
Not saying I'm right here, but in my life it has to pass the "smell and gut" check. This doesn't as there are too many holes in their reasoning and logical reasons why it doesn't. I believe my first point is apparent, human nature at play, and the buying of your loyalty with the 10 year warranty did exactly as it was intended.
I have one of these cars so I am concerned. I wont be persuaded by corporate BS and the facts do not add up. Those that could care less because of the 10 year warranty, great. I have the same warranty. I just lost a lot of confidence and respect for Porsche. I would have had more if they stayed quiet and said nothing, just went about their business and repaired any engine that required it. But to BS you and spin the reason is dishonest and not how that company used to behave.
10-11-2018, 02:25 AM
#454
Race Director
Thread Starter
I don’t want to keep pissing all over this thread, as it has a lot of useful information for 991.1 GT3 owners. I have said all i have to say.
10-11-2018, 08:53 AM
#455
I purchased a CPO 2015 GT3 with 7200 miles on it in Feb. 2018. (Mfg. date 09/14) Two owner local Jacksonville FL car, perfect / documented maintenance history, no track time or autocross and in exceptional condition. My first DE with this car was in June 2018. I ran an uneventful Saturday with four sessions and got rained out after two sessions on Sunday. Getting used to the car so I took in easy in PCA run group 3.
Fast forward to the weekend of Sept. 8 & 9. Car now has 10K miles on it. Ran a good 20+ minute warm-up on the track and then ran my first 30 minute session. About 20 minutes in, running in PDK Sport, 3rd gear, high RPM's, the engine goes into limp mode. I get the car off the track. Shut it down, remove the key, start it up again and the error clears. Go out for the balance of my session. Two sessions later, two more limp modes, same gear (3rd-high RPM), same spot on the track, I decide to call it a day. Now the Engine Module Warning light (yellow, not red) is lite on the right gauge cluster. Message says OK to drive but get it to the dealer.
I take the car to Porsche Birmingham to diagnosis the engine faults. Comes back as cylinder 1 & cylinder 5 misfire at high RPM. Ran a few other tests and confirmed those two cylinders. Performed a compression test and leak down with 0% leak. Porsche Germany comes back and asks Porsche Birmingham to drop the motor and take some very specific pictures after the valve covers, cam shaft, and lifters were removed. Found excessive wear on camshaft lobes and lifters. Germany signed off on the defect. Next day, PCNA Warranty (Atlanta) gets involved and approves a replacement G series "engine assembly". The "engine assembly" is everything but the side & center mufflers. Turns out there were a few G "engine assembly" motors in New England. The engine arrived the next business day and was subsequently installed, the ECU re-flashed, and road tested within two business days. This whole process was handled exceptionally and very timely by everyone involved.
It was interesting to learn that the engine assembly comes with a blank serial number. Porsche Birmingham used a factory tool that puts my original "F" engine serial number on the replacement "G" motor so that the integrity of a numbers matching car remains intact. Warranty on the new "G" motor begins with my odometer reading of 10,097 miles and the original in-service date so I have a 6 yr. / 110K warranty remaining on the new motor.
I don't recall specifically what the oil pressure used to run at but it seems to be running higher now. Owner's Manual states a 2K break-in, Service Manager is saying that I should be OK at 1K miles, and the guys over at the PSDS are referencing 700-800 miles before I hit the track again. An oil/filter change is recommended. They just had some new 2018 Lizard Green GT3 RS's roll off the truck at Barber so I inquired as to the break-in before they let everyone go nuts with them at the PSDS.
Fast forward to the weekend of Sept. 8 & 9. Car now has 10K miles on it. Ran a good 20+ minute warm-up on the track and then ran my first 30 minute session. About 20 minutes in, running in PDK Sport, 3rd gear, high RPM's, the engine goes into limp mode. I get the car off the track. Shut it down, remove the key, start it up again and the error clears. Go out for the balance of my session. Two sessions later, two more limp modes, same gear (3rd-high RPM), same spot on the track, I decide to call it a day. Now the Engine Module Warning light (yellow, not red) is lite on the right gauge cluster. Message says OK to drive but get it to the dealer.
I take the car to Porsche Birmingham to diagnosis the engine faults. Comes back as cylinder 1 & cylinder 5 misfire at high RPM. Ran a few other tests and confirmed those two cylinders. Performed a compression test and leak down with 0% leak. Porsche Germany comes back and asks Porsche Birmingham to drop the motor and take some very specific pictures after the valve covers, cam shaft, and lifters were removed. Found excessive wear on camshaft lobes and lifters. Germany signed off on the defect. Next day, PCNA Warranty (Atlanta) gets involved and approves a replacement G series "engine assembly". The "engine assembly" is everything but the side & center mufflers. Turns out there were a few G "engine assembly" motors in New England. The engine arrived the next business day and was subsequently installed, the ECU re-flashed, and road tested within two business days. This whole process was handled exceptionally and very timely by everyone involved.
It was interesting to learn that the engine assembly comes with a blank serial number. Porsche Birmingham used a factory tool that puts my original "F" engine serial number on the replacement "G" motor so that the integrity of a numbers matching car remains intact. Warranty on the new "G" motor begins with my odometer reading of 10,097 miles and the original in-service date so I have a 6 yr. / 110K warranty remaining on the new motor.
I don't recall specifically what the oil pressure used to run at but it seems to be running higher now. Owner's Manual states a 2K break-in, Service Manager is saying that I should be OK at 1K miles, and the guys over at the PSDS are referencing 700-800 miles before I hit the track again. An oil/filter change is recommended. They just had some new 2018 Lizard Green GT3 RS's roll off the truck at Barber so I inquired as to the break-in before they let everyone go nuts with them at the PSDS.
My car also was built end of September 2014, took delivery in November as a 2015, and also has some track days. I broke it in by the book. 17.5k miles. This problem hangs over like a dark cloud...what if my engine doesn’t declare itself prior to ten years?
10-11-2018, 09:11 AM
#456
Rennlist Member
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Mid-Atlantic (on land, not in the middle of the ocean)
Posts: 12,434
Received 3,782 Likes
on
2,190 Posts
Thanks for the post. A lot of interesting information here. Later engine failure...was the car tracked before your acquisition? Engine matching numbers...don’t believe I’ve heard that before. Glad it’s worked out for you. Also, love the PSDS.
My car also was built end of September 2014, took delivery in November as a 2015, and also has some track days. I broke it in by the book. 17.5k miles. This problem hangs over like a dark cloud...what if my engine doesn’t declare itself prior to ten years?
10-11-2018, 12:46 PM
#457
Why did they redesign the whole valve train if there was nothing wrong with the .1 design. If it was only an inclusion and coating issue, the cost of changing this is tiny compared to a design change. The whole valve train went from hydraulic to solid and this was to make the engine more racy? Why the racy reason? Maybe they did not want to say the real reason and thought GT3 owners would want a more racy engine. Ask any .2 owner and ask him or her if they can feel the car more racy because it has a solid valve train? Going from Hydraulic to solid is not a simple change. Its a huge change.
-> the parts (camshafts and finger followers) are under high stress in the "old" design, if pressure, valve spring rate, coating or something else is not "perfect" the parts fail
-> I guess they fixed it by introducing very tight tolerances, changed cam profiles, new valve springs and finally the DLC-coated camshafts
-> this all is very expensive in production, more expensive than planned
-> the new design isn't so different. basically, they got rid of the hydraulic adjusters and replaced them by shims. Its not that much effort and its cheaper parts! (the .1 valvetrain is a complete redesign over former GT-engines, .2 is very much similar to .1)
-> the changes made the design more immune to material stress by the downside of service needs (the lash needs to be exactly adjusted manually over the lifetime of the engine)
So they made design less complex thus more reliable and reduced parts cost. Thats it. All the "racy" argumentation is just marketing.
10-11-2018, 03:26 PM
#458
These points are valid, at least I share your opinion. But let me add a few things:
-> the parts (camshafts and finger followers) are under high stress in the "old" design, if pressure, valve spring rate, coating or something else is not "perfect" the parts fail
-> I guess they fixed it by introducing very tight tolerances, changed cam profiles, new valve springs and finally the DLC-coated camshafts
-> this all is very expensive in production, more expensive than planned
-> the new design isn't so different. basically, they got rid of the hydraulic adjusters and replaced them by shims. Its not that much effort and its cheaper parts! (the .1 valvetrain is a complete redesign over former GT-engines, .2 is very much similar to .1)
-> the changes made the design more immune to material stress by the downside of service needs (the lash needs to be exactly adjusted manually over the lifetime of the engine)
So they made design less complex thus more reliable and reduced parts cost. Thats it. All the "racy" argumentation is just marketing.
-> the parts (camshafts and finger followers) are under high stress in the "old" design, if pressure, valve spring rate, coating or something else is not "perfect" the parts fail
-> I guess they fixed it by introducing very tight tolerances, changed cam profiles, new valve springs and finally the DLC-coated camshafts
-> this all is very expensive in production, more expensive than planned
-> the new design isn't so different. basically, they got rid of the hydraulic adjusters and replaced them by shims. Its not that much effort and its cheaper parts! (the .1 valvetrain is a complete redesign over former GT-engines, .2 is very much similar to .1)
-> the changes made the design more immune to material stress by the downside of service needs (the lash needs to be exactly adjusted manually over the lifetime of the engine)
So they made design less complex thus more reliable and reduced parts cost. Thats it. All the "racy" argumentation is just marketing.
To add to what you are saying, from what I have been told,
Cam profiles have to change when going from Hydraulic to solid followers. The design is very different both in its design and operation. The .2 system requires the lash to be set by shim thicknesses. The .1 system had no lash which was the # 1 problem and cause of the failures. The inclusions and lack of DLC just added to the result. They did give Porsche a great spin on the problem though.
The .1 hydraulic had shims too. But these were for the finger to slide against and not used as an lash adjustment. The .2 uses a "free" counter lever type finger arrangement and the shim is used to adjust the required lash. The .1 system was counter levered but the hydraulic valve controlled and pushed the finger hard into the camshafts eliminating any lash and oil film. Steel running hard against steel increases friction, without lubrication and any chance of removing the temperature created will damage parts.
As stated above, manually adjusted lash does require servicing. The advantage to hydraulically controlled fingers is the "no need" to service the fingers. But unfortunately they got it wrong. And knew it, hence the change over to the .2 system. The spin continued with the statement that the engine did not need shim adjustment for 100K miles.
What's that saying, you can fool some of the people some of the time, but you cannot fool...…..? Believe what you wish, but you cannot deny the real issue here, or you just don't understand the engineering. Porsche did. If it was simple case of inclusions and coating, they would have issued a update and or sent over a lower level engineer. The fact they sent over the head of engineering and motorsport was all about dog and pony to stave off the class action they feared.
10-20-2018, 04:37 PM
#459
Hi all,
First post and didn't want to be one of those guys and start a new thread on a topic that's been done to death! Forgive me if the following question is answered in the thread, but it's rather long and I've struggled to sift out an answer.
I'm looking at getting my first 911 and a 991 GT3 is the order of the day I think, however which engine to get?
I get that there is E F and G engines, and variations within those codes. Car I'm looking at has F VIN, yet was replaced with an F engine (#F65002) when it was 5500 miles and 6 months old (OCT 14 build and Feb 15 replacement). I assume this engine would have had the misfire issue but would the replacement F have been any better? Conversely there are cars out there with F engines that are stock.
What's the general consensus? G engine or nothing? F and and you're probs fine and hey you got a warranty?
Cheers in advance.
First post and didn't want to be one of those guys and start a new thread on a topic that's been done to death! Forgive me if the following question is answered in the thread, but it's rather long and I've struggled to sift out an answer.
I'm looking at getting my first 911 and a 991 GT3 is the order of the day I think, however which engine to get?
I get that there is E F and G engines, and variations within those codes. Car I'm looking at has F VIN, yet was replaced with an F engine (#F65002) when it was 5500 miles and 6 months old (OCT 14 build and Feb 15 replacement). I assume this engine would have had the misfire issue but would the replacement F have been any better? Conversely there are cars out there with F engines that are stock.
What's the general consensus? G engine or nothing? F and and you're probs fine and hey you got a warranty?
Cheers in advance.
10-20-2018, 04:49 PM
#460
Rennlist Member
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Mid-Atlantic (on land, not in the middle of the ocean)
Posts: 12,434
Received 3,782 Likes
on
2,190 Posts
Hi all,
First post and didn't want to be one of those guys and start a new thread on a topic that's been done to death! Forgive me if the following question is answered in the thread, but it's rather long and I've struggled to sift out an answer.
I'm looking at getting my first 911 and a 991 GT3 is the order of the day I think, however which engine to get?
I get that there is E F and G engines, and variations within those codes. Car I'm looking at has F VIN, yet was replaced with an F engine (#F65002) when it was 5500 miles and 6 months old (OCT 14 build and Feb 15 replacement). I assume this engine would have had the misfire issue but would the replacement F have been any better? Conversely there are cars out there with F engines that are stock.
What's the general consensus? G engine or nothing? F and and you're probs fine and hey you got a warranty?
Cheers in advance.
First post and didn't want to be one of those guys and start a new thread on a topic that's been done to death! Forgive me if the following question is answered in the thread, but it's rather long and I've struggled to sift out an answer.
I'm looking at getting my first 911 and a 991 GT3 is the order of the day I think, however which engine to get?
I get that there is E F and G engines, and variations within those codes. Car I'm looking at has F VIN, yet was replaced with an F engine (#F65002) when it was 5500 miles and 6 months old (OCT 14 build and Feb 15 replacement). I assume this engine would have had the misfire issue but would the replacement F have been any better? Conversely there are cars out there with F engines that are stock.
What's the general consensus? G engine or nothing? F and and you're probs fine and hey you got a warranty?
Cheers in advance.
10-20-2018, 06:25 PM
#461
8th Gear
I just got back from Barber this afternoon. In speaking with a friend of mine there, he has a 2015 GT3 with the original "F" engine. He has 6600 miles on it, has run 8+ DE's (PCA Group 3), and has not seen a single fault. In my situation, the previous owner never tracked the car. My "F" engine misfired 20 minutes into the very first session of the DE. So literally, my motor failed the very first time it was run at 8K rpm's.
The open question that I would have if I was looking for another 2015 GT3 is that those of us who have had "F" engines fail, did everyone else see the fault codes on your first few track sessions? Not meaning to start a long or new chain on this but were there any "F" engine failures on cars that never saw any track time? I'm assuming that no one's running around town at 8K rpm's.
The open question that I would have if I was looking for another 2015 GT3 is that those of us who have had "F" engines fail, did everyone else see the fault codes on your first few track sessions? Not meaning to start a long or new chain on this but were there any "F" engine failures on cars that never saw any track time? I'm assuming that no one's running around town at 8K rpm's.
10-26-2018, 04:47 PM
#463
Just brought my car to Lujack Porsche in Davenport, Iowa. 2014 E series engine with 18k miles on it. Had cylinder 5 reporting misfires, kicking it into limp mode every time you went over 8k rpm. Sounded extremely notchy past 6k rpm and was burning excessive amounts of oil (1/2 quart every 2 weeks!). I drove it hard on the streets like it should be but I haven't even had the chance to track it yet hahaha. Dealer said cylinder 6 is also misfiring, so that likely rules out a coil pack or plug. Still waiting to hear back after they do some more investigation. For the time being it looks like I am getting a new engine, nothing official yet though.
Does anyone have a time frame to expect on how long this engine swap should take? Just a basic timeline of someone who has been through this would be helpful.
Dealership was happy to hook me up with a loaner for the time being, so I am square. Was looking forward to throwing some winter tires on my car and driving it this winter though! Hoping it comes back home soon...
Does anyone have a time frame to expect on how long this engine swap should take? Just a basic timeline of someone who has been through this would be helpful.
Dealership was happy to hook me up with a loaner for the time being, so I am square. Was looking forward to throwing some winter tires on my car and driving it this winter though! Hoping it comes back home soon...
10-26-2018, 07:09 PM
#464
Advanced
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 76
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I think experiences vary, and I heard about some people saying they got the new engine in under 2 weeks.... In my case it took about 1.5 months or so when all was said and done, never had a problem after (sold the car just recently, but very pleased with the replacement)
Good luck with your new engine (if it comes to that).
Your SA should be able to give a good ETA, my engine was flown in, the paperwork took a bit of time... at least ask them if Porsche has agreed to do the engine replacement (they need to send some pics, at least that was what I was told in my case, so the engine needs to come out)
Good luck with your new engine (if it comes to that).
Your SA should be able to give a good ETA, my engine was flown in, the paperwork took a bit of time... at least ask them if Porsche has agreed to do the engine replacement (they need to send some pics, at least that was what I was told in my case, so the engine needs to come out)
10-30-2018, 12:50 PM
#465
8th Gear
My replacement "G" engine was approved by Atlanta on a Friday, shipped over the weekend and arrived at Porsche Birmingham on Monday. Install was completed and my car was ready to go on Wednesday afternoon.
Update: The interesting part is that my meticulously broken in new "G" motor with only 700 miles on it, went into limp mode while in 2nd gear going 25 mph on a surface street. 5-6 seconds later, the car lost all power and shut down. Towed to Porsche Birmingham where it was identified that all three right side cylinders misfired. Unable to diagnosis root cause. Appears to be electrical but awaiting feedback from Atlanta.
Is anyone else seeing any "G" motor failures?
Update: The interesting part is that my meticulously broken in new "G" motor with only 700 miles on it, went into limp mode while in 2nd gear going 25 mph on a surface street. 5-6 seconds later, the car lost all power and shut down. Towed to Porsche Birmingham where it was identified that all three right side cylinders misfired. Unable to diagnosis root cause. Appears to be electrical but awaiting feedback from Atlanta.
Is anyone else seeing any "G" motor failures?