991.1 GT3 COG: Our Meeting with PCNA/PAG plus Porsche's Official Announcement
08-07-2017, 11:21 PM
#106
Really??? Every village has an idiot!!!
Dundon were trying to help well before Porsche stepped up. Had Porsche not stepped up, Dundon may have been your only hope. Dundon addressed the mechanical one, as both a preventative one and the other as a final solution.
As I see it, there were two issues that needed to be addressed. The warranty issue and the mechanical one. Porsche addressed the warranty issue.
Playing devils advocate, if the fix was made as Porsche presented, why the need extend the warranty? Do they know what production batches of fingers are in what engines? If they did why no recall on these engines before a complete engine is required?
A total re call takes care of all engines. A warranty still pays the numbers game.
Dundon were trying to help well before Porsche stepped up. Had Porsche not stepped up, Dundon may have been your only hope. Dundon addressed the mechanical one, as both a preventative one and the other as a final solution.
As I see it, there were two issues that needed to be addressed. The warranty issue and the mechanical one. Porsche addressed the warranty issue.
Playing devils advocate, if the fix was made as Porsche presented, why the need extend the warranty? Do they know what production batches of fingers are in what engines? If they did why no recall on these engines before a complete engine is required?
A total re call takes care of all engines. A warranty still pays the numbers game.
Sure, Dundon had a solution--an expensive one they would sell us--to their gain. Not that there's anything wrong with capitalism, but ultimately Dundon's claims we're based on, at the very least, incomplete and unjustified conclusions that were convenient to their marketing plan.
oh yeah, and I very much recall the air of superiority attitude of the Dundon rep who continuously suggested during his presentation that Porsche didn't really understand what was happening and Dundon (and he personally) did. Little did he know that Porsche had already figured it out and solved the issue before the 911 R even shipped much earlier.
How many R and RS owners would have shelled out thousands (or tens of thousands) to Dundon to solve (or at least monitor for) a problem that didn't exist but that Dundon claimed they knew did exist based on convenient but flawed conclusions?
If we are to fault Porsche for anything it's not coming forward earlier with what they had learned in their research and proposing this solution sooner. Having said that I am happy with the outcome and I think we should all rejoice.
08-07-2017, 11:28 PM
#107
I'd like to mention some points not raised.
In addition to root cause analysis and a repair path for affected cars, this news also reinstates value to a car that just a few months ago had none. The fear of engine failure caused prices to drop and at least one fellow rennlister couldn't trade his car in at any price as his dealer told him he couldn't sell the car. With a 10 year warranty the car becomes a no brainer to keep and probably is the easiest Porsche to sell right now.
Another take away point: Porsche has done the math and, by their projections, so few cars are affected that they're willing to risk a 10 year warranty! That speaks volumes about fact vs fiction with regards to the "sky is falling" crowd yelling how every .1 gt3 is about to blow up.
Thanks guys for all your hard work for my benefit. We all owe you one.
In addition to root cause analysis and a repair path for affected cars, this news also reinstates value to a car that just a few months ago had none. The fear of engine failure caused prices to drop and at least one fellow rennlister couldn't trade his car in at any price as his dealer told him he couldn't sell the car. With a 10 year warranty the car becomes a no brainer to keep and probably is the easiest Porsche to sell right now.
Another take away point: Porsche has done the math and, by their projections, so few cars are affected that they're willing to risk a 10 year warranty! That speaks volumes about fact vs fiction with regards to the "sky is falling" crowd yelling how every .1 gt3 is about to blow up.
Thanks guys for all your hard work for my benefit. We all owe you one.
08-07-2017, 11:28 PM
#108
Race Director
The drop off will not be remedied- Manual is the biggest reason and then those who can not hep themselves chasing the "newest and greatest"
08-07-2017, 11:30 PM
#109
Big thanks to all involved
08-07-2017, 11:33 PM
#110
Rennlist Member
Couple of questions I hope one of you might be able to answer:
- It's great they'll now replace the engine as standard operating procedure, but did Porsche mention the reason for this sudden change? I hope they did this out of customer interest, and not because of reliability reasons. I just got my top-end rebuild 2 months ago...
- For the folks that did receive the top-end rebuild, is it safe to assume all the updated parts were part of this top-end rebuild?
Again, great outcome!
08-07-2017, 11:57 PM
#113
Race Director
Thread Starter
My appointment is on Aug 15th for my car. It has the misfire code so I'll see what happens when I take the car in. Is it bad to wish for the worst case of having "the issue" and getting the new engine? I'm actually hoping it's not a coil pack, who would have thought...
Still very ironic I got the misfire when you all were in the meeting. Thanks for what you guys did and the time you put in. It's a great result and awesome to know Porsche is backing their customers on this issue. I'll report back when I know what they are doing with my car.
Still very ironic I got the misfire when you all were in the meeting. Thanks for what you guys did and the time you put in. It's a great result and awesome to know Porsche is backing their customers on this issue. I'll report back when I know what they are doing with my car.
08-08-2017, 12:00 AM
#114
Rennlist Member
First, thanks Rob et al. for all your hard work!
Couple of questions I hope one of you might be able to answer:
- It's great they'll now replace the engine as standard operating procedure, but did Porsche mention the reason for this sudden change? I hope they did this out of customer interest, and not because of reliability reasons. I just got my top-end rebuild 2 months ago...
- For the folks that did receive the top-end rebuild, is it safe to assume all the updated parts were part of this top-end rebuild?
Again, great outcome!
Couple of questions I hope one of you might be able to answer:
- It's great they'll now replace the engine as standard operating procedure, but did Porsche mention the reason for this sudden change? I hope they did this out of customer interest, and not because of reliability reasons. I just got my top-end rebuild 2 months ago...
- For the folks that did receive the top-end rebuild, is it safe to assume all the updated parts were part of this top-end rebuild?
Again, great outcome!
Additionally, the terrifying picutres of scored cylinder walls were an artifact of manufacturing, and he confidently said that they were no related to the issue. He mentioned a "leopard pattern" of the scoring ( and it was entertaining watching him try to translate this from German) that has to do with how they cast, then drill the blocks. Carmen can add more here (his engine did in fact have the leopard pattern), but he said this is normal, and just rarely seen "in the flesh." How many people stare into the pistons of their 991 motor? End result, the top end rebuild is fine
As for the other issue, it depends upon when the rebuild was done. Some of the rebuilds did not get all of the updated parts, some of them did. We did not get a specific schedule. Perhaps the other COG members remember more, but this is my recollection.
08-08-2017, 12:03 AM
#115
Race Director
Thread Starter
Timing is everything.
08-08-2017, 12:07 AM
#116
Race Director
Thread Starter
Walliser indicated that there was no problem wth the top end rebuilds and that the debris from the failed DLC ends up in the filter. He said top end rebuild is fine, but from an operational and customer service perspective, I think they are learning it's more efficient to just swap the engine. We discussed how labor intensive the top end rebuilds have been.
Additionally, the terrifying picutres of scored cylinder walls were an artifact of manufacturing, and he confidently said that they were no related to the issue. He mentioned a "leopard pattern" of the scoring ( and it was entertaining watching him try to translate this from German) that has to do with how they cast, then drill the blocks. Carmen can add more here (his engine did in fact have the leopard pattern), but he said this is normal, and just rarely seen "in the flesh." How many people stare into the pistons of their 991 motor? End result, the top end rebuild is fine
As for the other issue, it depends upon when the rebuild was done. Some of the rebuilds did not get all of the updated parts, some of them did. We did not get a specific schedule. Perhaps the other COG members remember more, but this is my recollection.
Additionally, the terrifying picutres of scored cylinder walls were an artifact of manufacturing, and he confidently said that they were no related to the issue. He mentioned a "leopard pattern" of the scoring ( and it was entertaining watching him try to translate this from German) that has to do with how they cast, then drill the blocks. Carmen can add more here (his engine did in fact have the leopard pattern), but he said this is normal, and just rarely seen "in the flesh." How many people stare into the pistons of their 991 motor? End result, the top end rebuild is fine
As for the other issue, it depends upon when the rebuild was done. Some of the rebuilds did not get all of the updated parts, some of them did. We did not get a specific schedule. Perhaps the other COG members remember more, but this is my recollection.
08-08-2017, 12:13 AM
#117
Rennlist Member
I can't remember the last time I can recall almost every detail from a 2-3 hour meeting without referring to any notes. The COG was focused and dialed in!
08-08-2017, 12:14 AM
#118
Burning Brakes
At Smokies GT this past April Dundon made a presentation in which they insisted the finger follower premature wear issue was certain to affect all 991.1 GT3/RS/R engines, which appears to have been based on a premature assumption that was incorrect. Dundon didn't do the research like Porsche did to truly understand the root cause, which has to do with specific metalurgy problems on some of the finger followers combined with the hydraulic lifter/oiling design issue and a certain mix of environmental/use cases.
Sure, Dundon had a solution--an expensive one they would sell us--to their gain. Not that there's anything wrong with capitalism, but ultimately Dundon's claims we're based on, at the very least, incomplete and unjustified conclusions that were convenient to their marketing plan.
oh yeah, and I very much recall the air of superiority attitude of the Dundon rep who continuously suggested during his presentation that Porsche didn't really understand what was happening and Dundon (and he personally) did. Little did he know that Porsche had already figured it out and solved the issue before the 911 R even shipped much earlier.
How many R and RS owners would have shelled out thousands (or tens of thousands) to Dundon to solve (or at least monitor for) a problem that didn't exist but that Dundon claimed they knew did exist based on convenient but flawed conclusions?
If we are to fault Porsche for anything it's not coming forward earlier with what they had learned in their research and proposing this solution sooner. Having said that I am happy with the outcome and I think we should all rejoice.
Sure, Dundon had a solution--an expensive one they would sell us--to their gain. Not that there's anything wrong with capitalism, but ultimately Dundon's claims we're based on, at the very least, incomplete and unjustified conclusions that were convenient to their marketing plan.
oh yeah, and I very much recall the air of superiority attitude of the Dundon rep who continuously suggested during his presentation that Porsche didn't really understand what was happening and Dundon (and he personally) did. Little did he know that Porsche had already figured it out and solved the issue before the 911 R even shipped much earlier.
How many R and RS owners would have shelled out thousands (or tens of thousands) to Dundon to solve (or at least monitor for) a problem that didn't exist but that Dundon claimed they knew did exist based on convenient but flawed conclusions?
If we are to fault Porsche for anything it's not coming forward earlier with what they had learned in their research and proposing this solution sooner. Having said that I am happy with the outcome and I think we should all rejoice.
08-08-2017, 12:16 AM
#119
amazing job - congrats
08-08-2017, 12:18 AM
#120
Rennlist Member
I have huge respect for the Dundon team and I don't think they deserve any criticism. Jamie is a fellow GT3 owner and was among the first to provide details about the finger follower wear issue. He participated in discussions with the COG and was extremely helpful in helping us prepare for our meeting. His presentation at the Smokies Event was extremely informative, and I don't think his solution is off base. It was just a different approach, as Porsche was able to develop a solution based on current engine architecture. When we asked Dr. Walliser about the solid lash lifters in the .2 he said the new car is always better than the last one. In addition, Jamie never said that Porsche would not stand behind the issue. He simply presented his solution.
Agree 100 pct!! Had a long chat with Jamie today and they are taking all of this in stride. They are fabulous engineers, great people and have done a lot to help push smokies further with their contributions and sponsorships. They were also invaluable in providing the COG with technical insight as we prepared for the big day.
The whole team at Dundon is top shelf.