Stealer 991.2 GT3 Listing on Rennlist
08-07-2017, 01:07 PM
#91
Banned
The only real solution to this is for Porsche to build as many GT cars as the market wants. No allocation restrictions. No deposits years in advance. Just walk into your Porsche dealer, spec the car you want, and enjoy it when it arrives. People would still be fine paying MSRP (the cars speak for themselves), and Porsche would make more money.
08-07-2017, 02:59 PM
#92
The only real solution to this is for Porsche to build as many GT cars as the market wants. No allocation restrictions. No deposits years in advance. Just walk into your Porsche dealer, spec the car you want, and enjoy it when it arrives. People would still be fine paying MSRP (the cars speak for themselves), and Porsche would make more money.
The ONLY real solution is to wave a magic wand right now and have ALL GT cars follow a typical, rational, fact based, financially supported depreciation curve - you know like 99% of all other cars since the inception of financial matrices.
What will that do?
1. You buy a GT car, it depreciates 10-15% right off the lot.
2. Eliminate 95% of flippers.
3. Drastically reduces the people who buy a GT car thinking it is depreciation-proof.
4. Most people who want a GT car will be able to get one.
Last edited by mass27; 08-07-2017 at 03:17 PM.
08-07-2017, 03:18 PM
#93
RL Community Team
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
I think we have seen the enemy.
And it is us.
And it is us.
08-07-2017, 03:28 PM
#94
If I was a dealer I wouldn't even be on RL with all the hypocrites. This is the largest group of middle school girls on any forum I know.
Sure it's fun and certainly entertaining but if I was a dealer and livelihood depended on it, no way. I would have plenty of business and sales without the madness.
Sure it's fun and certainly entertaining but if I was a dealer and livelihood depended on it, no way. I would have plenty of business and sales without the madness.
08-07-2017, 03:30 PM
#95
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Well Martin… I must admit, I was more than a little excited to wake up this morning (ZCH time) to partly sunny skies, 15 degrees and a response from my new pen pal, USCTrojan.
However, I will also admit my excitement somewhat dwindled after reading your post. <<air out of balloon noise>>> I hate to start this correspondence on the wrong foot, but your post reminded me of what Jean Paul Sartre would refer to as…. nothingness.
Your post is one giant contradiction.
In your first paragraph, the process you describe is very black/white and mechanical. It’s also very naive, though. There’s a list, and it’s managed by a first-come, first-serve basis with deposits. Like a game show, whoever gets their deposit in first - wins. The client then receives a number to prove their place in line. As a dealer, you will loathe this decision, as your clients will continually question whether or not their spot has been compromised. "Did I just get the 14th GT3 from my dealer, instead of the 13th GT3 as promised?” By the way, how far in advance do you start accepting deposits? What do you do when one client complains that they were not notified about the deposits at the same time as others?
Then — CONVERSELY — you talk about the importance of building long-term relationships, loyalty, repeat business, etc. Yet you just set up a rigid, apathetic (and flawed) system that does NOTHING for your loyal, long-term clients. Your process rewards the time-stamp by which a deposit is made over relationships and loyalty that you supposedly value. Try telling one of your best clients who’s purchased 10 cars from you that he simply didn’t pay his deposit fast enough…. some random guy with beautiful, long, feathered, blond hair and a really cool Camaro walked into the dealership at the right moment and paid his deposit quicker. That’s a conversation that will end any long-term relationship aspirations you might have had.
So, Martin, which is it? The time/date of the deposit, or the relationship that dictates whether you receive an allocation? As a dealer, you won’t create any relationships if all you care about is the time-stamp of the deposit.
Your process creates other issues, too. Once word gets out that USCTrojan’s Porsche dealership will give a GT3 allocation to any local client who places a deposit far enough in advance and/or quick enough, you’ll have the same half dozen clients rolling their deposits from one GT car to the next. You’ll never be able to give a GT car to a different group of clients… they’ll lock up all your allocations in advance, and they’ve got their number in line to prove it.
Also, what happens when you take a deposit and you’ve guaranteed the client a certain position in line, but you can’t secure the allocation from PCNA? What if your client doesn’t believe you when you tell him you took his money but can’t get him an allocation? After all, he’s been to C&C and knows of multiple people who have taken delivery at your dealership.
Lastly, how many deposits do you take? 10? 50? Infinite? What happens when you stop taking deposits because you have far too many, and now everyone on RL thinks you’re just another dealer telling everyone that you “don’t have a list anymore?” How do you respond when clients accuse you of stacking up deposits just to draw interest on them? How do you respond when a client threatens to blast you on YELP because you won’t give him the opportunity to get a GT car, yet you gave 20 other people a chance? Are you discriminating? What happens when you couldn't get your client one particular GT car, so you tell him you'll do everything you can to get him the next GT car, but the other manager in the store just took 8 random deposits on your weekend off? Then PCNA only gives you 3 allocations anyway... now what do you do? Now you've got all sorts of pissed off people.
You’ve created a MESS, Martin!
You might get so sick of all the ****ing bull****, all the hysteria, all the forum bashing, and all the threats that you simply take NO deposits from anyone, build all 7 of the cars yourself and sell them when they arrive. After all, these GT cars only account for 1% of your retail business anyway. It's 1% of your business and 99% of your headaches.
------
A couple of you suggest a dutch auction. That would be about as effective as a dutch oven. I would suspect if most of you were called and asked for your highest bid, you’d tell the “stealership” to fly a kite, and then you’d create a thread on RL about how reprehensible the dealer/PCNA is.
Nuvolari612 - To be honest, I really couldn’t make heads or tails of what you were saying. I think I’d need 20mg of Ritalin to decipher your post.
However, I will also admit my excitement somewhat dwindled after reading your post. <<air out of balloon noise>>> I hate to start this correspondence on the wrong foot, but your post reminded me of what Jean Paul Sartre would refer to as…. nothingness.
Your post is one giant contradiction.
In your first paragraph, the process you describe is very black/white and mechanical. It’s also very naive, though. There’s a list, and it’s managed by a first-come, first-serve basis with deposits. Like a game show, whoever gets their deposit in first - wins. The client then receives a number to prove their place in line. As a dealer, you will loathe this decision, as your clients will continually question whether or not their spot has been compromised. "Did I just get the 14th GT3 from my dealer, instead of the 13th GT3 as promised?” By the way, how far in advance do you start accepting deposits? What do you do when one client complains that they were not notified about the deposits at the same time as others?
Then — CONVERSELY — you talk about the importance of building long-term relationships, loyalty, repeat business, etc. Yet you just set up a rigid, apathetic (and flawed) system that does NOTHING for your loyal, long-term clients. Your process rewards the time-stamp by which a deposit is made over relationships and loyalty that you supposedly value. Try telling one of your best clients who’s purchased 10 cars from you that he simply didn’t pay his deposit fast enough…. some random guy with beautiful, long, feathered, blond hair and a really cool Camaro walked into the dealership at the right moment and paid his deposit quicker. That’s a conversation that will end any long-term relationship aspirations you might have had.
So, Martin, which is it? The time/date of the deposit, or the relationship that dictates whether you receive an allocation? As a dealer, you won’t create any relationships if all you care about is the time-stamp of the deposit.
Your process creates other issues, too. Once word gets out that USCTrojan’s Porsche dealership will give a GT3 allocation to any local client who places a deposit far enough in advance and/or quick enough, you’ll have the same half dozen clients rolling their deposits from one GT car to the next. You’ll never be able to give a GT car to a different group of clients… they’ll lock up all your allocations in advance, and they’ve got their number in line to prove it.
Also, what happens when you take a deposit and you’ve guaranteed the client a certain position in line, but you can’t secure the allocation from PCNA? What if your client doesn’t believe you when you tell him you took his money but can’t get him an allocation? After all, he’s been to C&C and knows of multiple people who have taken delivery at your dealership.
Lastly, how many deposits do you take? 10? 50? Infinite? What happens when you stop taking deposits because you have far too many, and now everyone on RL thinks you’re just another dealer telling everyone that you “don’t have a list anymore?” How do you respond when clients accuse you of stacking up deposits just to draw interest on them? How do you respond when a client threatens to blast you on YELP because you won’t give him the opportunity to get a GT car, yet you gave 20 other people a chance? Are you discriminating? What happens when you couldn't get your client one particular GT car, so you tell him you'll do everything you can to get him the next GT car, but the other manager in the store just took 8 random deposits on your weekend off? Then PCNA only gives you 3 allocations anyway... now what do you do? Now you've got all sorts of pissed off people.
You’ve created a MESS, Martin!
You might get so sick of all the ****ing bull****, all the hysteria, all the forum bashing, and all the threats that you simply take NO deposits from anyone, build all 7 of the cars yourself and sell them when they arrive. After all, these GT cars only account for 1% of your retail business anyway. It's 1% of your business and 99% of your headaches.
------
A couple of you suggest a dutch auction. That would be about as effective as a dutch oven. I would suspect if most of you were called and asked for your highest bid, you’d tell the “stealership” to fly a kite, and then you’d create a thread on RL about how reprehensible the dealer/PCNA is.
Nuvolari612 - To be honest, I really couldn’t make heads or tails of what you were saying. I think I’d need 20mg of Ritalin to decipher your post.
08-07-2017, 03:37 PM
#96
Rennlist Member
Nope that won't fix it either.
The ONLY real solution is to wave a magic wand right now and have ALL GT cars follow a typical, rational, fact based, financially supported depreciation curve - you know like 99% of all other cars since the inception of financial matrices.
What will that do?
1. You buy a GT car, it depreciates 10-15% right off the lot.
2. Eliminate 95% of flippers.
3. Drastically reduces the people who buy a GT car thinking it is depreciation-proof.
4. Most people who want a GT car will be able to get one.
The ONLY real solution is to wave a magic wand right now and have ALL GT cars follow a typical, rational, fact based, financially supported depreciation curve - you know like 99% of all other cars since the inception of financial matrices.
What will that do?
1. You buy a GT car, it depreciates 10-15% right off the lot.
2. Eliminate 95% of flippers.
3. Drastically reduces the people who buy a GT car thinking it is depreciation-proof.
4. Most people who want a GT car will be able to get one.
08-07-2017, 03:54 PM
#97
Guys more production necessarily doesn't mean more profit? Need to know the constraint, and is more production capacity needed along with human labor? Porsche knows the margins, and they don't want to add more capacity that will drive cost a lot of variables.
08-07-2017, 08:29 PM
#100
Drifting
First come, first serve; increased production -- both are overly simplistic and have their own issues (who really wants 911 level depreciation...).
What other manufacturers' group of cars perform (on the road and financially) as well as the GT cars? While not perfect by any means, Porsche and its dealers are doing a lot of things right and there is a lot of whining by owners (many whom have benefited by Porsche's product and marketing approach) and want-to-be owners.
What other manufacturers' group of cars perform (on the road and financially) as well as the GT cars? While not perfect by any means, Porsche and its dealers are doing a lot of things right and there is a lot of whining by owners (many whom have benefited by Porsche's product and marketing approach) and want-to-be owners.
08-07-2017, 09:06 PM
#101
Rennlist Member
I still struggle with why Porsche hasn't elected to follow the well established model for these type of provenance cars:
Simple solution that Porsche has purposely turned a blind eye to.
- Dealers can charge ADM, and corporate can choose to cut all future allocation
- Customers have the right to flip, and dealers have the obligation to black-ball them from future allocation.
Simple solution that Porsche has purposely turned a blind eye to.
08-07-2017, 11:26 PM
#102
Rennlist Member
If I were a dealer, here is what I would do....
I would do the same thing for both big and small down dealerships. I would make a first come, first serve deposit for local customers only to receive GT cars at MSRP along with a 12-month first right of refusal buyback clause. If one of the customers flips their cars, they are blackballed from ever buying another GT car. I would have the sales guys encourage all of the customers about putting down a deposit down if they are interested in any of the GT cars. Each customer who puts a deposit down would be given their position on the list/s. If someone passes or doesn't want the car then it goes to the next person on the list. I would also not sell any allocations for over MSRP to other stealers who call in trolling for cars.
There's no perfect system out there but the one above would be the most fair to both the newbie buyers and the repeat customers. Using a point system like CJ uses at Porsche Fresno is also a very good, fair strategy to sell GT cars.
Look, I get that dealers are in business to make money but some dealers who sell to the highest bidder really look at thing very short-term vs building long-term relationships with a high probability of repeat business. I'm also a realtor so I know what the value of having long-term relationships are. I provide commission rebates to buyers to pay for most all or all of their closing costs and a reduced variable listing commission structure to my sellers. Why do I do it? Because it's the right thing to do and because it is great prepaid marketing for me which will generate future repeat and referral business. As my grandpa used to tell me..."give up a little now to get more later."
Also, good guys dealers like CJ's Porsche Fresno, North Houston, Sonnen, etc should be rewarded with more business because they do it the right way focusing on long-term relationships. I think we know that most of the stealers are corporate owned dealers while many of the good guy dealers are individual/s owned dealers.
I would do the same thing for both big and small down dealerships. I would make a first come, first serve deposit for local customers only to receive GT cars at MSRP along with a 12-month first right of refusal buyback clause. If one of the customers flips their cars, they are blackballed from ever buying another GT car. I would have the sales guys encourage all of the customers about putting down a deposit down if they are interested in any of the GT cars. Each customer who puts a deposit down would be given their position on the list/s. If someone passes or doesn't want the car then it goes to the next person on the list. I would also not sell any allocations for over MSRP to other stealers who call in trolling for cars.
There's no perfect system out there but the one above would be the most fair to both the newbie buyers and the repeat customers. Using a point system like CJ uses at Porsche Fresno is also a very good, fair strategy to sell GT cars.
Look, I get that dealers are in business to make money but some dealers who sell to the highest bidder really look at thing very short-term vs building long-term relationships with a high probability of repeat business. I'm also a realtor so I know what the value of having long-term relationships are. I provide commission rebates to buyers to pay for most all or all of their closing costs and a reduced variable listing commission structure to my sellers. Why do I do it? Because it's the right thing to do and because it is great prepaid marketing for me which will generate future repeat and referral business. As my grandpa used to tell me..."give up a little now to get more later."
Also, good guys dealers like CJ's Porsche Fresno, North Houston, Sonnen, etc should be rewarded with more business because they do it the right way focusing on long-term relationships. I think we know that most of the stealers are corporate owned dealers while many of the good guy dealers are individual/s owned dealers.
The issue is simple...supply and demand. We happen to be in a relative extreme cycle where perceptions of a strong economy, new markets, and access to money have created an unusual increase in demand...one which hasn't been close to satisfied with the increase in supply.
You and I both know that loyalty goes both ways.....how many of the customers who would love to pay msrp to get a new gt3 would be willing to do the same in an extreme down market? I can tell you not many. I remember being offered a new RS 4.0 off the showroom floor for 15 k below msrp...this is when slightly used ones were selling at 25-30 below msrp.
As far as the "good guy" dealerships go....everything is pretty subjective. Don't be surprised if you see many people on this forum having had pretty mediocre experiences with some of the dealers you mentioned.
I think we can all agree that if there is money to be made selling these cars...it should go to the company and not flippers. Whatever imperfect system exists....IMO this should be the primary underlying principle. Just like your line of work, being a good or bad guy rarely plays a role in the transaction. When you represent your seller...it is your obligation to bring the highest price in for the house and not leave money on the table for them.
BTW...for those who don't know Martin, I think he may get the award for being the least understood guy on this forum. "USCTrojan" Martin sometimes comes across totally differently than the guy in real life. He is one of the most genuine, passionate car guys I have ever met and an incredible driver.
08-07-2017, 11:37 PM
#103
GT3 player par excellence
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
^ martin is crazy but a good crazy :-)
08-08-2017, 01:22 AM
#104
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Martin- The idea of allocating the cars based on a "deposit" isn't a very practical one, in my opinion. It reminds me of the guy in my fraternity who used to lick one of the extra large pizzas when the pizza delivery guy showed up just to stake his claim. When would one actually put the deposit in? When the car is announced? Would there be people camping outside the dealership to have the opportunity to put in their deposit earlier? I'm not being facetious btw....just thinking practically.
The issue is simple...supply and demand. We happen to be in a relative extreme cycle where perceptions of a strong economy, new markets, and access to money have created an unusual increase in demand...one which hasn't been close to satisfied with the increase in supply.
You and I both know that loyalty goes both ways.....how many of the customers who would love to pay msrp to get a new gt3 would be willing to do the same in an extreme down market? I can tell you not many. I remember being offered a new RS 4.0 off the showroom floor for 15 k below msrp...this is when slightly used ones were selling at 25-30 below msrp.
As far as the "good guy" dealerships go....everything is pretty subjective. Don't be surprised if you see many people on this forum having had pretty mediocre experiences with some of the dealers you mentioned.
I think we can all agree that if there is money to be made selling these cars...it should go to the company and not flippers. Whatever imperfect system exists....IMO this should be the primary underlying principle. Just like your line of work, being a good or bad guy rarely plays a role in the transaction. When you represent your seller...it is your obligation to bring the highest price in for the house and not leave money on the table for them.
BTW...for those who don't know Martin, I think he may get the award for being the least understood guy on this forum. "USCTrojan" Martin sometimes comes across totally differently than the guy in real life. He is one of the most genuine, passionate car guys I have ever met and an incredible driver.
The issue is simple...supply and demand. We happen to be in a relative extreme cycle where perceptions of a strong economy, new markets, and access to money have created an unusual increase in demand...one which hasn't been close to satisfied with the increase in supply.
You and I both know that loyalty goes both ways.....how many of the customers who would love to pay msrp to get a new gt3 would be willing to do the same in an extreme down market? I can tell you not many. I remember being offered a new RS 4.0 off the showroom floor for 15 k below msrp...this is when slightly used ones were selling at 25-30 below msrp.
As far as the "good guy" dealerships go....everything is pretty subjective. Don't be surprised if you see many people on this forum having had pretty mediocre experiences with some of the dealers you mentioned.
I think we can all agree that if there is money to be made selling these cars...it should go to the company and not flippers. Whatever imperfect system exists....IMO this should be the primary underlying principle. Just like your line of work, being a good or bad guy rarely plays a role in the transaction. When you represent your seller...it is your obligation to bring the highest price in for the house and not leave money on the table for them.
BTW...for those who don't know Martin, I think he may get the award for being the least understood guy on this forum. "USCTrojan" Martin sometimes comes across totally differently than the guy in real life. He is one of the most genuine, passionate car guys I have ever met and an incredible driver.
08-08-2017, 01:41 AM
#105
SJW, a Carin' kinda guy
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
I was offered a 997 RS 4.0 at sticker to my spec. I was holding out for green. God I am an idiot. Of course I was the only one buying cars when the economy was crap and I did not have the money cannon I have now. And then they all went PDK and I lost interest. Now I am back and everything is crazy money (of course all my other collector cars are worth lots of money, but I am not selling, just hoarding, cause that is how I roll). When I am destitute I will sell, ok probably not then either, but I would consider it. #ramanfordinner