Stealer 991.2 GT3 Listing on Rennlist
08-07-2017, 10:59 AM
#76
Racer
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Chicago, NYC, Zurich
Posts: 393
Likes: 0
Received 65 Likes
on
20 Posts
Everything I posted is reality in a high volume, US Porsche dealership. Compared to Switzerland or Australia, the United States is a hyper-competitive shark tank. Indeed, you should be happy you can buy your Porsches in Australia. I've purchased mine throughout Europe and the US, and it's a night/day different experience, as well. Australia and the US are apples and oranges.
I will also note, anything might work in a store that sells 1-2 GT cars, especially if that store is located outside the US.
And NO - I'm not a car salesman. As a hobby, I do participate in the higher-end auto auctions throughout the US and Europe.
I will also note, anything might work in a store that sells 1-2 GT cars, especially if that store is located outside the US.
And NO - I'm not a car salesman. As a hobby, I do participate in the higher-end auto auctions throughout the US and Europe.
08-07-2017, 11:07 AM
#77
Just a note all dealership don't do list nor take deposits. Some GM's use a system they will take care off their buyers that buy the most cars vs. working a list. They know who they are, and how many allocations they have. One of my dealers quote "GT cars are speciality cars, and this is how they take care of their special customers" If he takes care of his guys and get extra he will sale over MSRP to a walk in. I do agree on relationship is important, I've had 3 911's one being a RS, and GT3 no list no crazy stuff what I'm hearing.
All the terrible stuff I'm reading I would walk sorry no car is that important to plea to spend my money. My guy promised me a 2018 allocation for the summer MSRP, but I'm good with my RS not selling for a GT3 engine is no issue for me/happy with the performance. Good luck to all seeking a car.
All the terrible stuff I'm reading I would walk sorry no car is that important to plea to spend my money. My guy promised me a 2018 allocation for the summer MSRP, but I'm good with my RS not selling for a GT3 engine is no issue for me/happy with the performance. Good luck to all seeking a car.
Last edited by Maverick787; 08-07-2017 at 11:25 AM.
08-07-2017, 11:07 AM
#78
Banned
I don't understand why you say it won't work here.. we aren't that strange just because we live upside down and the water flushes down the toilet the opposite direction!..
We have similar number of dealers within driving or easily accessible and nothing stopping me putting a deposit with a few dealers (if they accepted one). And yes ultimately doesn't stop flippers outright but it does materially improve the quality of the relationship between the market and the dealers here. I and many guys I know just regularly come back to the dealer we know and continue our repeat business. Flippers occur here, usually privately or via used car dealers and you very rarely see an OEM dealer obviously doing it.
One thing that is very apparent here is that you don't see or hear the level of dealer bashing that you do in the states. You don't see it on the local forums and you don't hear it at the track or cars and coffee...And believe me you would as culturally we a quite happy to whinge and complain about a lot of things. We do complain about the price of vehicles broadly but 90% of that is a taxation issue. I was in the US in 2015 at an event and you would think Porsche dealers where ex con's and the lowest of individuals from the discussion.
Maybe if your senior enough at your dealership, why not implement it and try it next GT model..you might be suprised.
We have similar number of dealers within driving or easily accessible and nothing stopping me putting a deposit with a few dealers (if they accepted one). And yes ultimately doesn't stop flippers outright but it does materially improve the quality of the relationship between the market and the dealers here. I and many guys I know just regularly come back to the dealer we know and continue our repeat business. Flippers occur here, usually privately or via used car dealers and you very rarely see an OEM dealer obviously doing it.
One thing that is very apparent here is that you don't see or hear the level of dealer bashing that you do in the states. You don't see it on the local forums and you don't hear it at the track or cars and coffee...And believe me you would as culturally we a quite happy to whinge and complain about a lot of things. We do complain about the price of vehicles broadly but 90% of that is a taxation issue. I was in the US in 2015 at an event and you would think Porsche dealers where ex con's and the lowest of individuals from the discussion.
Maybe if your senior enough at your dealership, why not implement it and try it next GT model..you might be suprised.
These people because they were quick, ahead of the curve, ambitious or whatever you want to call it will have several allocations, they will flip them for a fast buck.
It just happens here. I wish it were different but it isn't. Yes it could be better, those same flippers could tell the dealer no thanks they already have one and that dealer could sell to the next person, but they usually don't. There are many on here even that openly admit they have many/several/multiple deposits in at many dealers. That is not building a relationship etc. The few that have great relationships, get allocations at MSRP and stick with one dealer are also usually not the flippers. They wouldn't dare jeopardize that long standing relationship.
08-07-2017, 11:08 AM
#79
Drifting
You know in most states someone using credit to purchase a car anything above MSRP is illegal?
Diesel gate - 20B it happens.
I have a question - if your service rates doubled on your above MSRP would you be ok with that because that's exactly how PTS works which isn't even PTS it's an out of range single stage paint on the GT3. Porsche is not only allowing bad business they are initiating the act. There are good dealers and bad supporting ill behavior is a personal choice.
Diesel gate - 20B it happens.
I have a question - if your service rates doubled on your above MSRP would you be ok with that because that's exactly how PTS works which isn't even PTS it's an out of range single stage paint on the GT3. Porsche is not only allowing bad business they are initiating the act. There are good dealers and bad supporting ill behavior is a personal choice.
08-07-2017, 11:11 AM
#80
Drifting
From my discussions with a dealer principle, there is a tiered list..(YEMV)
1. Best customers
2. Family, Friends & Associates
3. List with Paid deposits
IMO, the above is an acceptable and logical order.
1. Best customers
2. Family, Friends & Associates
3. List with Paid deposits
IMO, the above is an acceptable and logical order.
08-07-2017, 11:12 AM
#81
Banned
Just a note all dealership don't do list nor take deposits. Some GM's use a system they will take care off their buyers that buy the most cars vs. working a list. They know who they are, and how many allocations they have. One of my dealers quote "GT cars are speciality cars, and this is how they take care of their special customers" If he takes care of his guys and get extra he will sale over MSRP to a walk in. I do agree on relationship is important, I've add 3 911's one being a RS, and GT3 no list no crazy stuff what I'm hearing.
All the terrible stuff I'm reading I would walk sorry no car is that important to plea to spend my money. My guy promised me a 2018 allocation for the summer MSRP, but I'm good with my RS not selling for a GT3 engine is no issue for me/happy with the performance. Good luck to all seeking a car.
All the terrible stuff I'm reading I would walk sorry no car is that important to plea to spend my money. My guy promised me a 2018 allocation for the summer MSRP, but I'm good with my RS not selling for a GT3 engine is no issue for me/happy with the performance. Good luck to all seeking a car.
08-07-2017, 11:18 AM
#82
08-07-2017, 11:29 AM
#83
I'm not a Martin, and I don't play one on TV. But here is what I would do if I were a dealer. I would do some market research and determine the going rate. I'd offer the cars at a reasonable increment above market so that I have some room to come down and allow the eventual buyer to perceive he worked me over and got a good deal. The amount I'd be willing to come down would be marginally larger for loyal customers as well as new local customers (because there is obviously value in having the cars serviced at my dealership). Please note: I am not a dealer; nor could I even imagine ever having a scintilla of aspiration to be one. 
Okay, I will now see myself out.
Okay, I will now see myself out.
08-07-2017, 11:32 AM
#84
08-07-2017, 11:50 AM
#87
Rennlist Member
The only real solution to this is for Porsche to build as many GT cars as the market wants. No allocation restrictions. No deposits years in advance. Just walk into your Porsche dealer, spec the car you want, and enjoy it when it arrives. People would still be fine paying MSRP (the cars speak for themselves), and Porsche would make more money.
08-07-2017, 11:51 AM
#88
Burning Brakes
Agreed and Im not saying first in first served is the only method, but you have to admit that method you have isn't working. Its a sad circumstance when your market deals with you but dislikes and really wishes they didn't have too.
I don't think dealers can fix the flipper issue by themselves. This is a broader OEM issue, but dealers can help by not putting fuel on the fire by participating for short term gains.
This is how it works in Aus:
- i think or suspect (or saw a tidbit here on rennlist) and place a deposit with local dealer of what I think it might be. Description etc (this was the case with the R and also the gt3.2)
- alternatively as example via a discussion with my local guy he mentioned a few years ago, that P must be due for a GT2 sometime and too have a think about it. (example of customer relationship getting heads up)
So put a deposit on the R and GT3.2 but didn't on the GT2 as not as interested then. When I did express interest in the gt2 last year, was told the there was a waiting list of X names already and most likely wouldn't get allocations to fill. I couldn't jump the queue.
- When the car was announced on that day, I got a call that morning to say hey you will be touch and go as we may not get enough (as was the case with R) and/or hey, you should be able to get one as we usually get x etc..as was the case with the .2
- then confirmed, did I still want it based on the information and the RRP etc and would I confirm as they would need to finalise names for Porsche Australia next few weeks. I assume by names, then if you were on a few lists, questions would be asked (maybe one way for Porsche America to reduce flippers, although different company names, I suppose doest help.)
Then off we go and wait like everyone else.. I have moved up the list when two guys pulled out in front of me, but then moved back when I advised I confirmed I wanted to hold off for a manual (other PDK orders behind, jumped ahead).
Its not a perfect system by any means and we have as many sharks (white pointer ones for real) as anyone else.
(ps Chicagowhale, high volume isn't relevant, its the volume compared to the market size and both are comparable, although I see we get marginally get more GT cars per capita then most.)
I don't think dealers can fix the flipper issue by themselves. This is a broader OEM issue, but dealers can help by not putting fuel on the fire by participating for short term gains.
This is how it works in Aus:
- i think or suspect (or saw a tidbit here on rennlist) and place a deposit with local dealer of what I think it might be. Description etc (this was the case with the R and also the gt3.2)
- alternatively as example via a discussion with my local guy he mentioned a few years ago, that P must be due for a GT2 sometime and too have a think about it. (example of customer relationship getting heads up)
So put a deposit on the R and GT3.2 but didn't on the GT2 as not as interested then. When I did express interest in the gt2 last year, was told the there was a waiting list of X names already and most likely wouldn't get allocations to fill. I couldn't jump the queue.
- When the car was announced on that day, I got a call that morning to say hey you will be touch and go as we may not get enough (as was the case with R) and/or hey, you should be able to get one as we usually get x etc..as was the case with the .2
- then confirmed, did I still want it based on the information and the RRP etc and would I confirm as they would need to finalise names for Porsche Australia next few weeks. I assume by names, then if you were on a few lists, questions would be asked (maybe one way for Porsche America to reduce flippers, although different company names, I suppose doest help.)
Then off we go and wait like everyone else.. I have moved up the list when two guys pulled out in front of me, but then moved back when I advised I confirmed I wanted to hold off for a manual (other PDK orders behind, jumped ahead).
Its not a perfect system by any means and we have as many sharks (white pointer ones for real) as anyone else.
(ps Chicagowhale, high volume isn't relevant, its the volume compared to the market size and both are comparable, although I see we get marginally get more GT cars per capita then most.)
oldmxnut, this is an example of how it CAN work. He will buy one if he gets one and will drive it, not flip it. Very limited though and unfortunately not the norm. He will take one if he gets one from his preferred and only dealer. Usually that greed permeates and people see the shark infested waters knowing they can make a few bucks by flipping and not actually driving the car.
08-07-2017, 12:58 PM
#89
Drifting
Well Martin… I must admit, I was more than a little excited to wake up this morning (ZCH time) to partly sunny skies, 15 degrees and a response from my new pen pal, USCTrojan.
However, I will also admit my excitement somewhat dwindled after reading your post. <<air out of balloon noise>>> I hate to start this correspondence on the wrong foot, but your post reminded me of what Jean Paul Sartre would refer to as…. nothingness.
Your post is one giant contradiction.
In your first paragraph, the process you describe is very black/white and mechanical. It’s also very naive, though. There’s a list, and it’s managed by a first-come, first-serve basis with deposits. Like a game show, whoever gets their deposit in first - wins. The client then receives a number to prove their place in line. As a dealer, you will loathe this decision, as your clients will continually question whether or not their spot has been compromised. "Did I just get the 14th GT3 from my dealer, instead of the 13th GT3 as promised?” By the way, how far in advance do you start accepting deposits? What do you do when one client complains that they were not notified about the deposits at the same time as others?
Then — CONVERSELY — you talk about the importance of building long-term relationships, loyalty, repeat business, etc. Yet you just set up a rigid, apathetic (and flawed) system that does NOTHING for your loyal, long-term clients. Your process rewards the time-stamp by which a deposit is made over relationships and loyalty that you supposedly value. Try telling one of your best clients who’s purchased 10 cars from you that he simply didn’t pay his deposit fast enough…. some random guy with beautiful, long, feathered, blond hair and a really cool Camaro walked into the dealership at the right moment and paid his deposit quicker. That’s a conversation that will end any long-term relationship aspirations you might have had.
So, Martin, which is it? The time/date of the deposit, or the relationship that dictates whether you receive an allocation? As a dealer, you won’t create any relationships if all you care about is the time-stamp of the deposit.
Your process creates other issues, too. Once word gets out that USCTrojan’s Porsche dealership will give a GT3 allocation to any local client who places a deposit far enough in advance and/or quick enough, you’ll have the same half dozen clients rolling their deposits from one GT car to the next. You’ll never be able to give a GT car to a different group of clients… they’ll lock up all your allocations in advance, and they’ve got their number in line to prove it.
Also, what happens when you take a deposit and you’ve guaranteed the client a certain position in line, but you can’t secure the allocation from PCNA? What if your client doesn’t believe you when you tell him you took his money but can’t get him an allocation? After all, he’s been to C&C and knows of multiple people who have taken delivery at your dealership.
Lastly, how many deposits do you take? 10? 50? Infinite? What happens when you stop taking deposits because you have far too many, and now everyone on RL thinks you’re just another dealer telling everyone that you “don’t have a list anymore?” How do you respond when clients accuse you of stacking up deposits just to draw interest on them? How do you respond when a client threatens to blast you on YELP because you won’t give him the opportunity to get a GT car, yet you gave 20 other people a chance? Are you discriminating? What happens when you couldn't get your client one particular GT car, so you tell him you'll do everything you can to get him the next GT car, but the other manager in the store just took 8 random deposits on your weekend off? Then PCNA only gives you 3 allocations anyway... now what do you do? Now you've got all sorts of pissed off people.
You’ve created a MESS, Martin!
You might get so sick of all the ****ing bull****, all the hysteria, all the forum bashing, and all the threats that you simply take NO deposits from anyone, build all 7 of the cars yourself and sell them when they arrive. After all, these GT cars only account for 1% of your retail business anyway. It's 1% of your business and 99% of your headaches.
------
A couple of you suggest a dutch auction. That would be about as effective as a dutch oven. I would suspect if most of you were called and asked for your highest bid, you’d tell the “stealership” to fly a kite, and then you’d create a thread on RL about how reprehensible the dealer/PCNA is.
Nuvolari612 - To be honest, I really couldn’t make heads or tails of what you were saying. I think I’d need 20mg of Ritalin to decipher your post.
However, I will also admit my excitement somewhat dwindled after reading your post. <<air out of balloon noise>>> I hate to start this correspondence on the wrong foot, but your post reminded me of what Jean Paul Sartre would refer to as…. nothingness.
Your post is one giant contradiction.
In your first paragraph, the process you describe is very black/white and mechanical. It’s also very naive, though. There’s a list, and it’s managed by a first-come, first-serve basis with deposits. Like a game show, whoever gets their deposit in first - wins. The client then receives a number to prove their place in line. As a dealer, you will loathe this decision, as your clients will continually question whether or not their spot has been compromised. "Did I just get the 14th GT3 from my dealer, instead of the 13th GT3 as promised?” By the way, how far in advance do you start accepting deposits? What do you do when one client complains that they were not notified about the deposits at the same time as others?
Then — CONVERSELY — you talk about the importance of building long-term relationships, loyalty, repeat business, etc. Yet you just set up a rigid, apathetic (and flawed) system that does NOTHING for your loyal, long-term clients. Your process rewards the time-stamp by which a deposit is made over relationships and loyalty that you supposedly value. Try telling one of your best clients who’s purchased 10 cars from you that he simply didn’t pay his deposit fast enough…. some random guy with beautiful, long, feathered, blond hair and a really cool Camaro walked into the dealership at the right moment and paid his deposit quicker. That’s a conversation that will end any long-term relationship aspirations you might have had.
So, Martin, which is it? The time/date of the deposit, or the relationship that dictates whether you receive an allocation? As a dealer, you won’t create any relationships if all you care about is the time-stamp of the deposit.
Your process creates other issues, too. Once word gets out that USCTrojan’s Porsche dealership will give a GT3 allocation to any local client who places a deposit far enough in advance and/or quick enough, you’ll have the same half dozen clients rolling their deposits from one GT car to the next. You’ll never be able to give a GT car to a different group of clients… they’ll lock up all your allocations in advance, and they’ve got their number in line to prove it.
Also, what happens when you take a deposit and you’ve guaranteed the client a certain position in line, but you can’t secure the allocation from PCNA? What if your client doesn’t believe you when you tell him you took his money but can’t get him an allocation? After all, he’s been to C&C and knows of multiple people who have taken delivery at your dealership.
Lastly, how many deposits do you take? 10? 50? Infinite? What happens when you stop taking deposits because you have far too many, and now everyone on RL thinks you’re just another dealer telling everyone that you “don’t have a list anymore?” How do you respond when clients accuse you of stacking up deposits just to draw interest on them? How do you respond when a client threatens to blast you on YELP because you won’t give him the opportunity to get a GT car, yet you gave 20 other people a chance? Are you discriminating? What happens when you couldn't get your client one particular GT car, so you tell him you'll do everything you can to get him the next GT car, but the other manager in the store just took 8 random deposits on your weekend off? Then PCNA only gives you 3 allocations anyway... now what do you do? Now you've got all sorts of pissed off people.
You’ve created a MESS, Martin!
You might get so sick of all the ****ing bull****, all the hysteria, all the forum bashing, and all the threats that you simply take NO deposits from anyone, build all 7 of the cars yourself and sell them when they arrive. After all, these GT cars only account for 1% of your retail business anyway. It's 1% of your business and 99% of your headaches.
------
A couple of you suggest a dutch auction. That would be about as effective as a dutch oven. I would suspect if most of you were called and asked for your highest bid, you’d tell the “stealership” to fly a kite, and then you’d create a thread on RL about how reprehensible the dealer/PCNA is.
Nuvolari612 - To be honest, I really couldn’t make heads or tails of what you were saying. I think I’d need 20mg of Ritalin to decipher your post.
We are all car guys insults aren't necessary but if you wish to go to the gutter - let's go!
My guess by your insults - Chicago Guppy
don't mean to be rude nor do I care but if you want to play fair.
Last edited by nuvolari612; 08-07-2017 at 01:28 PM.
08-07-2017, 01:04 PM
#90
Banned
I think he meant that the newest car in your sig line was the 2011 Camaro. I don't think he meant recently owned. He could have been more clear, but that's how I took it. Looking at your sig, like you said, you DO hold onto your cars, which if a dealer was smart, they'd see that as future service customer. That doesn't mean you don't have more cars that are daily drivers that aren't in your sig. Maybe you have '16 BMW 5 series or '17 Mercedes etc. I think he was just making a point that you're not going in and buying 4 brand new Porsche's a year (Panny Daily, Cayenne for skiing/snowboarding, Macan for the wife and a Boxster for your kids college graduation etc.) and a lot of these people getting allocations are doing that either in order to be near the head of the class when it comes to GT allocations, or just because that's how often they buy new cars anyway, so they might as well make them all Porsches and be brand loyal and get that GT allocation as icing.
I do actually buy about 4 Porsches per year, but they are mostly classics. Have two deals pending right now. I am a car collector really.
I won't buy ANY new Porsche that's not a GT car. Way too much depreciation.....
But I get your point.