Mike in CA

As with almost any story, there are layers of complexity, and I've no doubt that more will be revealed about this one over time. And one can argue, with some accuracy, that as with almost any story one side or the other will try to spin each revelation to their advantage.

However, regardless of who spins what, the basic facts are that VW cheated, lied to regulators, and defrauded customers. While I also find it interesting to follow the press reports, peripheral issues, and back room maneuvering, let's not lose sight of that. This scandal wasn't invented by liberals or anyone else; VW actually did what they did. You may believe that VW is now being treated unfairly for their transgressions by some sectors of the media, or that this issue has become politicized and polarizing (what issue these days isn't?) but the fact remains that VW knowingly brought this on themselves; they are not victims.

As a Porschephile, and also a long time owner and admirer of Audi and VW vehicles, I have a personal interest in seeing VW come out of this whole. I don't want to see them go down. At the same time, I can't realistically blame anyone but VW for their troubles. They screwed up big time and will have to pay a price for that on several levels.

CAlexio

I think this is a perfect comment Mike. Too often we try to attribute misdeeds to mysterious forces or influences as a scapegoat.. In reality, especially in this situation, it's down to basic facts, and easily identifiable misdeeds. No need to invoke politics, this company structure was flawed, it lead to poor decisions, and now those responsible (a relatively small and well-defined group) must pay... Liberals & conservatives alike.

NateOZ

+1000 - to me it's a ethical and moral issue. If that kills the VW group so be it.

They should still sell off the clean assets and leave the toxic assets behind to be sorted through.

I've given up following the pressame as its just become a typical sensationalized witch hunt.

Z356

Get in line, counselor! I have been asking that question since Oct 18th!

Piëch not only expected his departure, he engineered it all with an
almost too perfect sense of timing!

hfm: We don't yet what Ferdinand Piëch knew as fact back in April of
2015 when he resigned from the Supervisory Board where he served
as Chairman. But it strikes me suspicious that he left so unexpectedly
back then...which is the reason I started my original thread in May titled:

'More Information on the Resignation of Ferdinand Piëch from
the VW Supervisory Board!'

https://rennlist.com/forums/off-topi...ory-board.html

Not for one minute did I ever think he was outfoxed in April by CEO
Martin Winterkorn...or even his cousin Wolfgang Porsche. And it begs
the question as to what he was suspicious of that made him decide to
distance himself from the VW Group at that time.

Let me remind everyone of something that I have previously posted
here on Rennlist (Post #43 on page 3 of this thread) which I find...
interesting! It could also hold the key to the mystery of Ferdinand
Piëch's desire to leave his post back in April:

"One quote from Piëch during his last days has intrigued me from
the moment I read it in the fascinating account reported in 'Spiegel
Online' back in the Spring, which I posted on my original thread back
in May:

"Do you want my resignation? If you would like that,
then I will resign today. But I have to say, if that's the
case I will sell my shares." Ferdinand Piëch as quoted in
article found below:

http://www.spiegel.de/international/...a-1032210.html

Today, in retrospect, we might be looking at another brilliant move
from the most intellectually gifted of all the descendants of Ferdinand
Porsche Sr. If Piëch after his resignation in April was able to sell most,
if not all, of his personal VW shares ahead of the 'Dieselgate' scandal
when the stock price was at its yearly 'high', he might be the wealthiest
citizen of Germany, far richer than his cousin Wolfgang that took sides
against him & remained on the VW Supervisory Board. And that perhaps
why he was able to drive 'triumphantly' into Wolfsburg recently. Moral
of the story, don't ever bet against Ferdinand Piëch

http://www.wsj.com/articles/at-volks...rns-1444064101

***

As to insider trading...that is a thorny question to which we don't yet
have answers. But one thing is for sure, before he left his post, Piëch
told his Board he would sell his stock after he his departure. And if he
executed on that threat, that surely was a wise financial move on his
part! And sell is something he probably would NOT have been able to
do if he had remained on the VW Group's Supervisory Board! And if
he sold before Sept 18th, it might be hard to prove he had inside
knowledge of what a group of 'rogue' engineers were up to (if we
are to believe the VW company line).

But let me turn things around & ask you to imagine a different scenario
from what Cars Technica, Lutz and Slate have suggested, which paints
Ferdinand Piëch as the villain of the story. We heard initially that the
reason Piëch told Der Spiegel as to why he had lost confidence in
Winterkorn was related to the later handling of VW's problems in the
American market. For example, see this report dated 4/23/2015:



http://www.dw.com/en/vw-chairman-pië...orn/a-18403487

It was never truly made exactly clear as to what problems Piëch
was specifically referring to, but it opens up this possibility:

What if Ferdinand Piëch was upset because Martin Winterkorn
had not sufficiently informed the Supervisory Board of the issues
the EPA had been raising with VW since early in 2014? What if
Piëch was insisting that Winterkorn & VW take a pro-active role
in correcting whatever the technical issues were, and if necessary
do a total recall & stop sale of diesel engine cars, and solve the
'problem' before it could become a crisis of huge proportion for
VW, with also dire consequences for the fortunes of the Porsche/
Piëch family itself? What if his warnings & concerns were ignored
by Winterkorn and/or the other members of the Supervisory Board?*
Who is the villain now?

We will know soon enough what he knew & when. This is
now a full-blown criminal investigation in the US, Europe &
other parts of the world. We will have as evidence all the
minutes & discussions that the Supervisory Board had before,
& after, Ferdinand Piëch (with seemingly impeccable timing)
removed himself from the chairmanship of the body.

Keep tune to this story...it will get more interesting with
time, not less!

***

As to what Ferdinand Piëch did with his shares of VW & Porsche
Automobil Holding SE after his resignation in April, we really don't
yet know. But here is what was reported at the time back in May:

"The fact that Piëch has stepped down in no way means that he
will no longer have influence. Indeed, his threat to sell his shares
is already creating turbulence. But his shares are worth less than
many speculate. Piëch currently holds 13 percent of the common
shares in Porsche Automobile Holding. The mass-circulation daily
Bild recently estimated he could raise €21 billion by selling them,
but the real figure is only about €1.8 billion.

That relatively low price may not keep Piëch from selling. He's
more likely to be bothered by having to first offer his shares to
the rest of the family -- to whom he would reportedly be required
to sell them at a 25 percent discount compared to market prices.
That would require him to not hold a grudge, which, of course,
is something he's not very good at."

http://www.spiegel.de/international/...a-1032210.html

Saludos,
Eduardo
Carmel

*This is not so far-fetched. I am still curious as to why
a veteran high official of Vokswagen, Winfried Vahland,
would resign his post just two weeks after his appointment
as head of the combined North American operation of
VW! And one possibility is that he didn't agree with the
manner in which the present Supervisory Board and
Management Board wanted to deal with the 'problem'.

http://www.wsj.com/articles/volkswag...its-1444827950



.

hfm

I agree with all of this. The only possible way management or the supervisory board would not be entirely culpable is if it really was an engineer or a few engineers that managed to do this without anyone in management being the wiser. And, I just don't see how an engineer or a circle of engineers implemented this across brands without oversight. Even if they were so able, I don't see how there was no oversight whatsoever or, how management didn't investigate more than a year ago when suspicion arose. Even if it was just one or a few, the board failed its duty to oversee those engineers.

In a best case, we have engineer(s) who intentionally added the defeat device and management who failed to prevent that from happening. In worst case scenario, the installation of defeat device was sanctioned or required from the top down.

Dan (feels sorry for owners of diesel VWs, VW not so much)

hfm

Eduardo,

As smart as he is, it certainly would not surprise me if the ouster was planned for the sole purpose of unloading shares before the dump. You're right, we'll see more facts over time and it will be an interesting developing story to watch. Better drama can hardly be found even from binge worthy shows on Netflix.

Dan (is glad he had no VW stock)