perfectlap

That car had more electronic gizmos -- and most likely illegal ones e.g. "Option 13" -- than any antique F1 car (by comparison) driven in the mid and late 80's.
By the time the grooved tires came in in the late 90's just a few years after that Spanish GP it was hardly even the same sport of the Senna/Mansell/Prost/Piquet golden era of driver talent over technology.

stevecolletti

Sorry.. I was trying to point out that great racing moments aren't necessarily about the equipment.

Schumacher (no matter the gizmos) should not have been able to take second place while running more than half the race (including a pit stop) with only 5th gear.

If it wasn't clear, I'm completely in the full (manual transmission, no electronic nannies, communicative chassis/suspension) sports car driving experience camp.
https://rennlist.com/forums/showthre...ferrerid=68981

perfectlap

Oh I know you're one of the purists. Don't you own a 246 GT? That's says it all.


The Schumacher 2nd place in Spain was partly due to his experience in sports cars/choosing different racing lines, attrition in the field, but the result was very much the product of a very technologically advanced and bullet proof car. Like I said perhaps too advanced for the rules which banned nearly all of the aids that year...hmmmm.
Case in point, remember when just three seasons earlier Senna lost nearly all his gears had to finish the Brazilian GP in sixth gear with Patrese about to steal the win? Unlike Schumacher's result in Spain where he ran most of the race in 5th, Senna after just a few laps towards the finish could barely lift his arms after the race and had to be physically pulled from the car. And that was Senna an incredibly fit driver in his own right.

stevecolletti

By today's standards, I'm a hidebound traditionalist.

The Dino is my wife's car - her dream car. I'm lucky to have a wife that loves cars.

I mostly agree with your take on Schumacher's race, though (IMO) that takes nothing away from the memory or my opinion of Schumacher's drive.
Senna was incredible for a flying lap. I loved watching him in qualifying. I was less thrilled with him in races - too impatient, with too many unnecessary incidents, for me (none of which ever seemed to effect his car other than leaving witness marks).

the_vetman

9A1-based GT3 engine is quite interesting... Titanium rods, forged pistons, rocker arms, 9k RPM, etc. PDK has also been optimized.

Transplant into a 987 or 981 would be a great thing, if it ever sees the light of day... I'd imagine the engine will be quite expensive (>50% of 981 value).

BTW, I also vote for Steve.

p.s. I know most people hate CLs, but have there continued to be problems after the recalls? Just wondering... Even without problems they're still a PITA though.

10 GT3

Bottom line is if it is a "true manual", then why is there a full automatic mode? Please note the PDK lever has a "D" like in all other PDK cars. How many F1 cars have an automatic mode? None. The new GT3 with its 9A1 engine and automatic gearbox is nothing more than just an upgraded Carrera S and nothing more.

zirrah

It has automatic mode b/c it can. Why not? A true manual has a clutch pedal though. I'd call PDK a hybrid manual.

stevecolletti

Dual-clutch transmissions are a weird hybrid, neither manual or automatic. I see them as more like the old pre-selector gearboxes of the 1930s, but using 2 linked gearboxes and a computer, instead.

I agree with you that it functions like an automatic, no matter how the mechanics differ. I'm glad it exists, as it is the best 'automatic' I've ever driven, but I would never buy a 'sporting' car with one (nor the Ferrari F1).

With that said, going back to what perfectlap was saying about cheating, F1 and the Benetton car... at the same time that Benetton was penalized for having launch control in their software, McLaren supposedly had a gearbox program that allowed automatic shifting - and that was allowed.

Kelderek

How many F1 cars have doors? None.
Does that mean that GT3 drivers should slide into the seat via the side window, or it's not a "real" sports car?

I have hard time understanding this PDK discussion.

It's very obvious why Porsche offers the GT3 with a PDK: it's faster. It's more efficient. It offers future development potential.

Porsche does this because they look ahead. A company can't look back. they must look ahead.
Double clutch technology is the future. More and more manufacturers are moving in that direction and more will follow, simply because it's a superior technology.

Porsche can't afford to look in the rear view mirror when developing new cars. They must look ahead. They are without doubt convinced that this move will gain them new customers. If they lose a few "old school" customers to gain plenty of new customers, they will make that sacrifice.

Porsche is running a business. They have made a decision based on what they believe is the best direction for the future.

stevecolletti

I want to know a lot more about that engine (though I'd be mating it to a manual). At this point I view Porsche product announcements (somewhat) cautiously pessimistic.
I bought my (used) 08 RS while I had a deposit on the unseen/unannounced 997.2 GT3 (RS-version). On paper, the RS sounded great. It was only after looking at the implementation of those 'improvements' that I decided to keep the 997.1.

I believe that Porsche can still build a special, quality engine, but will the (VW) bean counters allow them to?
As for cost, I doubt it will be Mezger-type money, and we've seen those sell for as little as $12-15K.

Yes, CL issues continue - even ignoring the new , very expensive maintenance schedule Porsche now specifies.

Plavan

Everyone just sit back and enjoy that our Spyders are STILL continuing to hold their value....

perfectlap

don't think anyone disagrees with any of the above. If I understand the GT3 crowd correctly this is an issue of choice and blatantly disregarding the wishes of this loyal customer base: Automatic GT3... take it or leave it. But as an observer I'm sure a non-automatic GT3 will be offered on an even more expensive limited edition along the pricing lines of the RS 4.0. That's my guess.
Which would seem an odd decision to me because the intersection of a capable driver and one with the means to drop $200K+ on a track toy will probably result in an even more limited group of customers who can enjoy the non-automatic Porsche they love so much. Call me crazy but I don't ever envision a time when track junky will be okay with being referred to as "the guy over there driving the automatic sports car".

perfectlap

I'm not sure about the current crop but the grooved tire era F1 cars did have fully automatic modes. I distinctly remember an interview with Williams TD Patrick Head where he discussed that Ralf Schumacher did none of the shifting while team mate Montoya carried out his own downshifts. Interesting because while they were team mates Montoya was generally quicker, had more poles -- 7 in 17 races in 2002 while Ralf had none, and finished every third career race on the podium.

the_vetman

Wow, I didn't know these..

Mezger for $12-15k? Whoa! Or wait... were you talking about any Mezger in older 911s or those in GT3s and turbos? Actually, the number sounds about right for used engines..

You're probably right about the new engine costing less than GT3 Mezger, but I was suspecting a "Porsche tax" even if it costs them less than before to make. I hope you're right - $36,000-40,000 for a new GT3 Mezger engine is crazy!

stevecolletti

They're usually out of crashed cars.

Last week on the 997 GT3 forum. The asking price is a little more, but it sounds like it was a negotiated sale, and it only had 12K miles.
https://rennlist.com/forums/showthre...ferrerid=68981

Anything bought directly from Porsche is silly money. I was quoted $32K for GT3 Mezger about 4 years ago, but that was from Porsche in a crate, through a dealer.

I'm getting ready to refresh my wife's 2000 Boxster S's drivetrain (she still loves it). I was curious what a 'new' 6-speed manual and the 3.2 would cost.
Even from Suncoast the tranny was ~$6K w/$1800 core charge, and the stock 3.2 engine (last year) was more than $12K (sorry, I can't find the email with the actual price).

If the new 'GT3' engine proves itself, just wait for one to be crashed.