khooni

Gents/Ladies,

So I have a bog standard car/s that I use on occasion for trackdays. my local track is brands hatch with a combination of technical bends, negative cambers and lots of dips. In other words, awesome, although not the safest of tracks. Most dangerous runoff areas are gravel lined, so if you have an off, the paint work gets a beating but the car would not.


Currently, I am sticking with OE spec tyres and in my case, Michelin PS2s. The car is responsive on standard brakes and can last almost 20 minutes without brake fade on my circuit (which is the allocated session time or my self imposed limit on an open pit lane format). The only mod I have is a CG lock which has been helpful in locking down my hips. Other than keeping up the fuel level, checking that all fluids are topped up and the tyre pressures are ok.. By the way, i run the car on standard tyre pressures as well. Wear is acceptably good after 5 track days.

Given that I would like to maintain the warranty on the car and keep everything in sync, ie use the car for what it was designed to do. I prefer to stick to OE spec tyres. I feel that if i go with Cup tyres or R888, I am working the suspension sub-optimally and the path leads to a suspension upgrade with bushings/dampers/springs/ARBs. This also means a brake upgrade from my standard CR brakes.
Lastly, I worry about the longevity of the LSD? Porsche Gt3s have weal LSDs and I wonder if the CR/spyder is afflicted with the same problem. Can anyone shed some light on this?

so the short story is what should a track day fan that sees a dozen track days a year do? Well, with the mind set that I don't want to mod anything unnecessary. Hmmm...

the_vetman

khooni, take the following with a bit of grain of salt as I've yet to track a Spyder or an R. I track a 2008 Boxster S.

Tires (rather, tyres for you): PS2's are actually very good for what they are (street tires). They grip well and give lots of audible feedback. Very good in the rain with enough tread. However, Michelin Pilot Super Sports are supposed to be much better.

R-compounds (which some people mistakenly call "slicks"): NT-01's are very popular and very good. I've found that R888's are very polarizing. Some people (including skilled instructors) love them while others hate them. Hoosier R6's are excellent but degrade quickly ($$$).

Brakes: I highly recommend that you go with track/racing pads. Street brake pads were just not meant to deal with track driving. You will also burn through them quickly if used on the track. I change mine out to track pads at the track, then switch back. Highly recommend Pagid Yellows. They work great, are fairly long lasting, and are easy on the rotors. Oh, and you should get racing brake fluids. At least ATE Super Blue. Many run Motul 600. SRF is great but $$$$.

Tire pressures: I suggest that you run your tire pressures lower. 36f/38r psi "hot" (just came off the track) is a popular combo. Some go 36 hot all around. Depends on your speed/skills, track, ambient temp, etc., but you have to start at 27-29 cold to get 36 hot. Wait... what's the recommended pressure for the R? 987.1 recommended pressures are 30f/37r psi. I know that Spyder's recm'd are 31 psi all around.

Suspension: depends on how far you want to go. Many people spend big bucks going with coilovers, racing shocks, adjustable sway bars with drop links, etc. At the very least, you should get as much negative camber as possible front and back with stock set-up. Ideally, you should get GT3/RSS/Elephant LCA's (lower control arms) for the front to get more negative camber. If street/track, aim for -2 to maybe -2.5 camber. If track only, -2.5 to -3.5. This will save the outer egdes of tires (trust me). And turn in better.

Currently, I'm only running a moderate suspension set-up of H&R sport springs and H&R sway bars. H&R's fronts are not adjustable and rears only have 2 settings. Still, it's much better than the stock suspension.

Good luck!

khooni

thanks. i find PS2s very good for that matter as well. When grip runs out, they protest audibly and you can literally feel them squealing as you drag the tread blocks across the pavement heesh... unwinding lock and releasing a bit of throttle then instantly all is quiet. breakaways are easily caught too so I have no complains on the street tyres.

I will check my tire pressures next time on track. I just judge from heat (by touching the tyres) and looking at the side wall. If the side wall is intact and the tyres don't feel excessively warm, I leave it alone. The normal pressures for a spyder are 30/31 and 31/31 for the CR.

I don't want to spend a cent on replacing stock suspension components unless worn and only with stock parts. the only exception is the LSD. Has anyone had failures? ie jacking the rear up and finding that both wheels spin without resistance? I hear a lot about failures on Gt3s but have never heard anything on caymans/boxsters equipped with them.

Marine Blue

I don't run at the track so I can't offer any suggestions on tires and pressures however I am and have always been a fan of maintaining mechanicals at or above the factory recommended requirements to improve longevity. Having said this I pay attention to the GT3 forums and also posts made by other R and Spyder owners to see what they are doing to maintain their cars.

Here is what have read and I hope others will chime in and add to this since it helps all of us.

Gearbox: (I learned this from Matt at Guard Transmissions)
The 987.2 uses a carbon lined synchro that is not used in any other gearbox. Porsche has gone to great lengths to develop a gear oil that is specifically designed for that gearbox. No matter what the jury of the internet tells you, never put anything but the factory Cayman/Boxster gear oil in there. And ignore Porsche's service interval. At the most, change your gear oil every 15k mi for street use. If you track the car, assume that every track day is the equivalent of 2500 miles. So, if you do 4-6 track events, you are due for gear oil change.

Brake Fluid:
Street Use every 2 years regardless of mileage
Track Use every 2 - 3 track sessions or sooner depending on length of time on track.

LSD: I don't know how frequently this should be changed but I am definitely interested in learning. Hopefully someone will post.

I have read that the LSD was improved to increase robustness for the 987.2 but I don't know how true this is and what exactly was changed.

Coolant: Interested in what others have learned on this front other than the factory recommendations.

Power Steering Fluid: ??

the_vetman

Oh, shoot, I'm sorry. Forgot to address this on the previous post.

Stock LSD's are largely considered crap. Almost like Porsche put in a weak/near-useless locking system so they could say that 987's have them. GT3's are better but not by that much. Most trackies go through stock LSD's pretty quickly. Guard (Transmission) LSD's are the way to go.

If you brake hard (threshold/ABS braking) at the end of a straight and feel squirm or chirping in the rear, it's time to say goodbye to your stock LSD and upgrade to something much better (Guard). Pretty much all serious trackies go with Guard.

On your side of the pond, something like Quaife may or may not be more popular. However, it's a TBD and not an LSD... definite differences. Also, you have to be careful with TBD's as some people have destroyed their axels by lifting a wheel then having it come down while TBD's doing its thing. Autocross? TBD may be OK... Tracking? Go with LSD.

the_vetman

Brake fluid... IMO some track junkies change 'em way too often. Same goes for those who change oil after each track event.... probably just a giant waste of money. Depends on your PCA region, but many require you to have changed brake fluid within the past 180 days (6 months) to pass tech. My region does this... and they're widely known for being strict.

LSD's need rebuilding periodically unlike TBD's. I used to think that LSD's needed yearly upgrading. However, it's come to my attention lately that some pretty skilled instructors in 987's have been running them for a few years and tens of thousands of miles and have yet to have had to rebuild. YMMV.

Coolant. Porsche says that it's forever.... (I wish love and diamonds were as simple). Most recommend Porsche coolant only. However, there are some who argue that you can use other brands. They have to be a specific composition - I don't remember what that is.

Power steering fluid? I've personally never heard of anyone changing/flushing it, but it has to be a specific type. Pentosin CHF-212, I believe. I think it used to be CHF-11 (?) but now it's CHF-212. I'm enjoying some single-malt scotch , so you should double-check the exact specs/numbers..

Frank 993 C4S

Some good advice above but for the occasional track day I feel that a lot if it is overkill.

Tires: check your tire pressures hot as stated above. At this point you are probably unnecessarily overheating your tires (tyres) and compromising grip and tire life.

Brakes: Leave everything as is except for changing the brake fluid once a year. Stock pads and fluid are just fine.

orthojoe

A good rule to try to follow is to not upgrade or change anything unless you experience a deficiency or failure. These cars can take an absolute beating in stock form. Bensf can attest to that. I think a lot of fear is based on racing conditions. Many people seem to mistake DEs for actual racing. It's a totally different ballgame in terms of endurance. Supposedly the LSD in Ben's PDK spyder is 'weak', but it's done just fine (knock on wood). I've never considered upgrading the LSD in my manual spyder. Upgrading the grip with tires will put more strain on everything, but MPSC, R888, NT01, trofeo, etc are still not full on racing slicks, which are another ballgame. Bensf uses NT01s, and his only modification is the GT3 lower control arms. He has the strandard brake calipers (upgraded pads and rotors, but these are consumables that will always need to be replaced). The guy runs pro-level lap times, outrunning GT3s and GTRs (except for one) consistently with no issues. Sorry to keep using Ben as an example, but I think he exemplifies how to a) enjoy your car and b) run it in essentially stock form and be happy with the performance and reliability.

There is the issue of overheating. My car runs hot, and Ben's runs even hotter because of his PDK transmission. If you are doing a lot of track days in hot weather, it is something to look out for. However, that doesn't mean that everyone needs to rush out right now to upgrade to a 3rd radiator. Each track, environment, car, and driver are different. Get a logger and see what kind of temps you are running. If it's high, upgrade the cooler. If not, don't waste your time or money.

There's a lot of voodoo magic out there when it comes to fluids. I've got a friend that cracks me up with all the oil mixture concoctions he does because of things he's read online. I liken him to an alchemist. Keep things OEM and you'll be fine. It's hard to beat OEM engineering. It's like trying to beat the market... Sometimes you might win, most of the time you lose.

khooni

the one good thing about the UK....... you almost never have to worry about hot weather. we get 85 degree and above weather 2 weeks a year........

thanks for the advice. there is certainly a lot of voodoo out there. I try to get close to the limit of the ABS cutting in and generally use the audio my tires send as the signal to ease. i am on my 6th trackday for 2012 this coming week and my stock tires will prolly be done. So the tire debate in my head will rage on: should I plump for R888/MPSC/pirelli corsas or keep using the PS2s? I confess I will prolly stick to another set of PS2s and then take it from there.

re Gt3 LCAs, why are they better than stock ones? Does changing them alter the suspension geometry? What is the downside?

re the change of fluids. I will definitely change out the oil annually.
re gear oil/coolant, when is the scheduled change?
re brake pads/discs/brake fluid.. After 6 track days, the pads/discs look pretty good which is surprising. I heard that the stock pads are different for spyders/CRs and are of a harder compound. Still, I'll prolly also change out the brake fluid.. but that's about 3 track days away lol

In any case, I am enjoying the car tremendously.. long live sublime balance.......

orthojoe

ATE stains your fluid reservoir blue, be warned on that. I run Motul RBF600

Interesting as I've found the opposite with my PS2s. Perhaps they were heat cycled out or the outer edges were too worn, but I had no audible feedback until it was too late, and found them to be very unpredictable. Constrast with the NT01s on my Evo, which were audible, progressive, and awesome grip.

GT3 or RSS LCAs allow for higher camber settings, that's the reason to get them. I assume the outer edges of your PS2s are wearing. No downside.

the_vetman

You heard correctly. Spyder/R front pads are harder and stop better than "regular" Boxsters' and Cayman's. AFAIK, the rear brake pads are same.

It is true that many things listed above are only "needed" when you become more advanced and have much seat time under your belt. The only "must" I'd say is getting as much negative camber as possible with the stock suspension. Not necessary per se, but you'll save your tires some and save money in the long run.

orthojoe

Can you elaborate on this more? I've experienced this on both my cars as well as others' cars I've driven.

Yup, this is why we get adjustable LCAs, Khooni. Stock LCAs won't get you much over 1 degree negative camber, IIRC

Alan Smithee

Personally, I would just leave it all stock. I tracked my 997 non-S about a dozen days a year in A groups with no issues. Work to improve the driver instead of the car.

For some good insight, research and/or contact TC Kline. They race a surprisingly stock Spyder very competitively - stock brakes, LSD, and cooling, if I remember correctly.

the_vetman

Joe, I may have generalized a bit as some tire chirping can be due to wheel locking (split/fractional second before ABS kicks in), i.e. "normal".

If we're talking about the rear end being "squirrely" under near-threashold braking, then I'll say this (YMMV, of course): multiple racers and much skilled people (i.e. not me) have said that this is due to LSD, or lack thereof. So did Matt Monson from GT.

The last bit may be construed as being a marketing ploy, but this is what multiple, independent skilled people have said: BEFORE - squirrely back end, AFTER Guard LSD - no such thing. And I'm not talking about some random "instructors" that have gone through the ranks because their region/body is very lax (all too common these days).... Don't get me started on some of these "advanced" or "upper intermediate" people these days.

Inside wheel spinning on a tight, fast corner would be an easily identifiable cause for a good LSD. However, there are other reasons/areas where you may think that you're doing OK but in reality could be doing a lot better with a proper LSD. I'm talking about seconds off of lap times, though admittedly this is not that important in terms of DE's (i.e. not racing).

khooni

Thanks.
My outer edge is wearing more than the inner edge, although not severe. Hmm, I have to look into LCAs then. do you have to get an alignment done once the LCA is installed to get the max camber?

My PS2s protest once the limit is reached but the breakaway is pretty gradual in my opinion. I am going to be tracking the spyder tomorrow so I'll let you know what happens with almost new PS2s..