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My Lichtgrun car is almost here - it's being delivered tomorrow. My dealer has fitted the red door pulls to match the red seatbelts and sent me this photo. I went for platinum stitching which compliments the exterior colour but wanted a few subtle red highlights to tie in with the brake calipers just like my 987 R had. And before anyone mentions it..... the steering IS on the correct side
I am almost at my limit of 'angst' with PTS at Porsche. I have contacted
my sources at PAG & PCNA this week over the '3rd Party' PTS painting
rumor first posted by Unotaz & Whoopsy in a 991 gt3 forum thread &
have yet to receive a reply. You can follow the exchange at the link
below:
Hopefully we will get a response & the matter clarified for the record.
In the meantime, I will no longer be involved carrying any further
'water' for Porsche on the PTS topic until I get more cooperation
from those individuals tasked - & paid handsomely - to deal with
their PTS customers (of which I am one) at this corporation, which
last I heard is still a for-profit organization. And I like to remind
all that PTS is a profitable option (recently adjusted up in price to
nearly $7K from $5.5K) regardless the headaches re: its convoluted
logistics at PAG!
Saludos,
Eduardo
Scottsdale, AZ
Thus the following post which I wrote elsewhere at Rennlist:
Originally Posted by secretcollector
Is there a more recent one than July, 2015?
If so, would someone please post a link to it or the PDF?
Thanks!
Originally Posted by bronson7
Might want to send Eduardo a pm.
If anyone would know it would be the King of PTS.
"The 'King', eh? Better than the 'Queen' in this case, I guess.
Gents: The problem is that since July 2015 PAG has categorized
the approved PTS lists 'For Internal Use Only - Confidential'.
I have an even more updated list than Feb 12, 2016 but my copy
doesn't have an exact date. But it has more colors approved than
the Feb 2016 list...so I know it's newer! For example, in it 'Nardo
Grey', the Audi color I chose for my new '16 RS7 (but referred by
Audi as 'Nardo Gray'), has been finally approved for PTS at Porsche!
I am still getting the approved PTS list from my sources inside the
organization but I will not post them in a public forum until I get
permission from Porsche. I have been trying to convince PAG that
it's not in the best interest of their customers, and ultimately PAG,
to hide this list, keep it secret & surround it in 'mystery' once again.
That is the world we lived with during the pre-991 model period
before we started publishing the list & explaining how PTS works
in a series of threads dating back to 2012 here at Rennlist. As a
matter of fact, just four of these threads now have total views
of over one million views...a testament to the popularity of the
subject matter among enthusiasts here at Rennlist! And that
interest has directly translated into record demand for this most
'unique' of options that you can order in a Porsche!
I have made my views known on the 'Confidential' obstacle to the
posting of the approved list to Barbara Boeckenhoff - Manager,
Porsche Exclusive & Personal Design - PCNA, as well as to other
individuals in key positions at both PAG & PCNA. But so far it has
been to no avail. So it's up to all of you, if you want to know the
approved PTS colors & how the PTS windows work, to lobby your
contacts at Porsche & the P-dealers to disseminate this information
& not hold it 'confidential'. The premise of keeping this information
close to the vest is the false assumption that by 'us' not talking about
it too much at places like Rennlist, or allowing the list to be published
in the internet, demand for PTS will go 'down' & be more 'manageable'
for those responsible for planning this 'troublesome' option at the factory.
In the end, PAG will decide what it wants to do...and we either will have
to accept it or shop elsewhere for an alternative brand. I am not going
to send this list to any of you without the approval of PAG, so please
don't ask. So if you want to know about approved PTS colors, you need
to demand a response from PAG, PCNA & your P-dealers. And you can
start by contacting 'Porsche Exclusive' in Atlanta. Even though this group
doesn't actually run PTS in Germany, 'Porsche Exclusive' can be a sounding
board that allows Porsche to hear what you want in regards the PTS program
& option.
Porsche Cars North America, Inc.
Porsche Exclusive - Personal Design Studio
One Porsche Drive
Atlanta, GA 30354
E-Mail: PersonalDesign@porsche.us
So please give it some thought & contact them about this important
topic. Otherwise it will become (once again) the 'exclusive' option
of only those well connected to dealers 'in the know' & assorted VIP's.
And if we return to this 'opaque' world of PTS, the average Porsche
customer will be the principal loser!
So it's up to each & everyone of you to determine the future of this
Paint-to-Sample program. Caveat emptor. You have been warned."
I concur with Eduardo that it makes no sense to offer
such a huge palette...if prospective owners don't even
know these $7500 option colors exist!
Originally Posted by Loess
I was a bit upset that I missed the PTS window...
Originally Posted by budrichard
As to PTS and Porsche Exclusive, well my two
experiences were both wanting.
-Richard
Originally Posted by Nizer
A lot of us couldn't get PTS...This is the last RS for me
if I can't get PTS on the next. Prices are up too much
and wait times too long to not get what I want.
Originally Posted by GreenLantern
I cannot +1 this any harder. It's been a horrid
experience for me this round.
Gents: The only way to perhaps change the PTS process
for the better is to contact Porsche (via 'Porsche Exclusive'
reps, for example) & let them know how you feel as a
Porsche customer!
Porsche Cars North America, Inc.
Porsche Exclusive - Personal Design Studio
One Porsche Drive
Atlanta, GA 30354
E-Mail: PersonalDesign@porsche.us
****
Originally Posted by mile2424
Didn't they just spend tons of money on a new environmental
friendly state of the art paint shop a few years or so ago? I find
it hard to believe they would be out-sourcing....
Yes...indeed!
***
Originally Posted by dark knight
...I am also truly shocked that Porsche would paint any car
outside of the factory, I presume the plastic parts are painted
elsewhere, but how can a 3rd party produce the quality that
the Zuffenhausen paint shop can?
Originally Posted by Loess
Maybe they are painted at one of the VW factories?
Well, the Panameras are presently welded together & painted
at a VW plant in Hannover. That arrangement will shortly end
& all welding & painting on the Panamera will be shifted to
Leipzig. The plan is to move final assembly of the Cayenne
to the Volkswagen Bratislava Plant, where a good portion of
that model is already done (welding together, paint & initial
assembly). That will free up space in Porsche Leipzig for all
the Panamera production, from A to Z ('sauf' engines, which
are all done at Zuffenhausen). The Macan is presently the
only model built (primarily) at Porsche Leipzig.
The Cayman are now all done at the VW Karmann plant in Osnabrück. That plant initially also assembled 981 Boxsters
but demand for the gt4 has made it mostly now a Cayman-
only assembly line. The 718 & 991 are built in Zuffenhausen.
And if Porsche does indeed sub-contract all PTS to a third
party, my bet would be that the facility used is the massive
Volkswagen's Mosel-Zwickau factory. That, believe it or not,
is where all Bentley Continental GT & GTC bodies are welded
& painted before they are shipped to Crewe England for final
assembly at that venerable factory!
Panorama of the Volkswagen Mosel-Zwickau factory
***
Originally Posted by lessthan3mph
Here's what I wrote in that email. It is my conjecture only, based
on my interpretation of observations. Full disclosure: I am NOT
in the know about how PTS really works. I'd love to be proved
wrong, but I think PTS is being managed in a very deliberate way.
"I've gotten the impression that PTS has turned into something
completely different from a standard option. It seems more and
more like PAG is using PTS to reward VIP customers and dealerships.
The way they've conducted PTS for the R was the pinnacle of this
practice. (It was entirely cloaked in secrecy: PTS allocations were
not randomly handed out, but were offered only to those with
exceedingly high VIP status but without any clarity other than to
those who were in the know.) Same with how they've made the
list confidential. And how they don't announce windows.
It's almost as if PTS is so popular and it's value beyond the list
price (massive impact on resale value, wow factor, prestige,
rarity, historic connection, etc), that PAG is now using that to
their advantage by making it a way to create a pecking order.
It's basically a way to give some customers preference and
special treatment above and beyond the allocation of the car
itself.
I think in order to maintain and benefit from this practice,
PAG has likely made a decision to keep PTS shrouded in
mystery. This secrecy allows them to set the rules and
creates a greater value for PTS. I'm not sure they currently
want all of the information about PTS made public. And I
suspect that is why you haven't yet been able to make the
trip to speak with them about PTS. I'm getting the feeling
it's basically what they want.
The truth is, we all (on RL) have benefited from information
that has put us in a position to take advantage of something
when ordering our cars (knowledge of options, what's desirable,
what colours are significant, what is the likely importance or
rarity of a new model, etc). Like you, I've tried to be open
about information that I've obtained. However, I have also
been entrusted with info that I've kept confidential. I suspect
the latter is the way PAG wants PTS to operate. Like a grey
market for information to those they want to inform.
While I think it would be great if you could get an interview,
I suspect all the info that PAG is willing to share has already
been shared with you. So tbh I'm doubtful they'll offer up
much more if and when you do meet with them.
I've just been getting that feeling more and more as I think
about things. I was fortunate to get PTS on my (originally
2014 spec) GT3. But in the intervening few years it has
gotten much harder for first time customers like me. Now
it is a huge accomplishment to land a PTS slot."
And it is really irking many customers when PTS is unachievable.
As today's "PTS Confidential" poll
seems to indicate, there is very strong (90% or more) support
from some of Porsche's most loyal, knowledgeable, and passionate
enthusiasts (yes, RLer's, take a bow) to make the PTS approved
colour list public. I hope this little bit of info will help emphasize
that point with PAG.
Thanks again, Eduardo, for all your help and info about PTS.
I benefitted a lot from it, and I hope others will be able to
continue to do so in the future. PAG, LISTEN TO EDUARDO,
AND PLEASE GIVE HIM THE CHANCE TO SPEAK TO YOUR
REPRESENTATIVES CANDIDLY ABOUT THE PTS PROGRAM!
Thank you Daniel for your many contributions
to our collective knowledge of PTS at Porsche!
***
Originally Posted by Houndstooth
Mind Boggling: PAG, pick 20 colors from the PTS list,
charge $10,000 as an option. Done. Want a super
special color? $15,000
Ferrari charges $12,500 for OUT OF RANGE COLOR
(PAG PTS) paint colors and $26,500 for true PTS
(if you want your car to match your sofa).
Porsche should use this terminology as well
Originally Posted by usctrojanGT3
Paint to Sofa?
Well, he is not that far off! How about 'Paint to Wife's Shoe'?
Does/can anyone on the outside know more about PTS than Eduardo?
Thanks Pete...I & others here at Rennlist work very hard at it to
make known as much useful information as humanly possible on
this interesting subject, without stepping over the line of confidentiality
with information obtained from reliable sources at Porsche!
***
Let me put this in perspective so that everyone knows precisely
what Pete Stout is referring to in his response today! Here is a
copy of my recent post which mentions Pete by name!
Originally Posted by JanisK
That perfectly explains why the finish on a PTS car is not like
on a stock car �� with stock car being the standard and PTS
somewhat catching up with it. Should it not be the other way
round?
Funny you should say that. I ran into Pete Stout, editor of
PCA's Panorama at the IMSA Laguna Seca race this past
weekend. In discussing the topic, he mentioned that he
thinks that PTS cars have a superior finish to the standard
'stock' cars known to be painted at Zuffenhausen. He
specifically mentioned to me the superb paint (lack of
orange peel in particular) on our friend Jeff Zwart's old
PTS 'Meerblau' 997 gt3 RS 4.0 Limited Edition:
I hope Pete, a frequent Rennlist contributor, chimes in
on his thoughts on the subject. He recently wrote an
editorial about PTS in Panorama, so he is quite knowledgeable
on the subject!
By the way, our own 'Sportscentury', my good friend from
Idaho, wrote an interesting letter to the editor in response
to Pete's PTS column. You can read it in the latest edition
of Panorama:
[/QUOTE]
And here is Pete's reply today to that post:
Originally Posted by stout
In that conversationnice to run into you, Eduardo!I did
mention something I had remembered from a discussion
about Jeff's RS 4.0: Several people had noticed that car's
nice paint surfaces and different texture/lack of orange
peel compared to normal 987/997 paint. I also have been
thinking about some of the paint flaws or "rough/unpolished
edges" documented in some GT4 color correction threads
(was it the GT4 colour thread on Pistonheads?) with photos
that showed examples. Those rough edges looked like
leftovers from hand work to me, but who can know?
It did make me wonder if the same areas on Porsches
in standard colors would show similar flaws in the finish.
Might be interesting to park a few PTS cars with a few
standard color cars and really look at the finish and
texture of the painted surfaces. If it comes from the
same shops and the same machines...it should probably
have the same surfaces. Of course, there may be another
explanation if it doesn't, but it might point to an
off-site painter.
Sounds like a case for the PTS Whisperer...
PTS Whisperer indeed...I just wish PAG would allow
us to understand how the PTS program really works
so that we can even the playing field. The 'little' guy,
if a normal relatively wealthy Porsche customer can
be described as such, might not ever get an opportunity
to order a Limited Edition like the 911R...but he should
have at least a crack at PTS! For heavens sake...our
money is equally as 'green' as those of 918 VIPs!
And we are the loyal customers that have stood with
Porsche our entire lifetime as customers through thick
...and thin!
Did PAG or PCNA respond to your Editor's Note in which
you made some helpful suggestions re PTS in the pages of
PCA's Panorama! To protect copyright material, the image
of your PTS article is too small to read on this post but I
encourage all to open their Feb edition of Pano & read it!
Let us remind folks what all of this means.
Daniel last July was able to see a new hue
added to a list of colors expected to be seen
on Porsche models. This guide is apparently
done by the auto paint companies for the
benefit of auto paint shops (repairs, etc) so
that they they can get information on the
correct color formula for the new paint.
Daniel let us know if this brief explanation
is correct. In any case, after much sleuthing
work, we finally identified the color when it
started showing up in prototype 911 Turbos
at Weissach & other places near Stuttgart!
Now Daniel has spotted another hue on a
similar new Porsche production color list
put out by some auto paint company. But
the weird thing is that the color code in
that directive for 'AventurinGruenMetallic'
is M6T. Well, Porsche currently has a
metallic green in their approved PTS list
called 'AventuraGruenMetallic', but that
has a color code specified as 39S.
And there has been some confusion on the
Porsche color names before, as documented
here:
So the fact that the new color discover by Daniel
is color code MT6 might mean that this is another
head-fake from Porsche to throw us off the color
scent...and the color might turn out to be not
what we are expecting to see (check the 'Aventura/
Aventurine Green' 993 below) considering that it
has a similar color name attached to it!
Just as 'Bamboo Green Metallic' (Y76) (or is it
called 'mambagruenmetallic' ?) turned out to be
quite different from what we originally expected!
I recently posted the following on post #488 on page 33:
Originally Posted by Z356
I am almost at my limit of 'angst' with PTS at Porsche. I have contacted
my sources at PAG & PCNA this week over the '3rd Party' PTS painting
rumor first posted by Unotaz & Whoopsy in a 991 gt3 forum thread &
have yet to receive a reply. You can follow the exchange at the link
below:
Hopefully we will get a response & the matter clarified for the record...
Well, I have the following update on that story. Here is what
I posted today on the 991 gt3 forum:
Originally Posted by Whoopsy
It was seems I was told an incomplete statement at Leipzig
about PTS and I wasn't aware enough to dig deeper, unlike
someone else here who had more of an interest in PTS and
would know to ask more.
That 'someone else' Whoopsy is referring to is me. And there
is a lesson to be learned here at Rennlist about this whole incident.
You can either take 'incomplete' information & run with it. Or you
can be more careful & measured when you post here about PTS.
And please double-check with reliable sources at PAG & PCNA
before posting definitive-sounding statements that could turn
out to be false or misleading. It's up to all of you to decide which
method gives you the most accurate information & serves best
the interest of our forum. The credibility of Rennlist as at risk.
This forum counts on you getting it right & not propagating
false rumors!
*****
Here is the history of this 'incident' for those interested in the
particulars. It all started on this thread back in late April:
Originally Posted by unotaz
True PTS cars are painted in a 3rd party facility.
Originally Posted by Z356
Say what?
Who told you that?
Saludos,
Eduardo
Scottsdale
Originally Posted by Z356
I don't know if you have been following PTS at Porsche closely, but
that particular option has been quite limited for a while now, especially
on the gt3, gt3 RS, gt4 & 981 Spyder.
The 911R will be built in Zuffenhausen & they have the ability to do
PTS on all of these cars right there. Their paint facilities are 'State of
the Art'. It's just a question of logistics re: the strict procedures PAG
follows to allow PTS for their cars & the coordination of the painted
parts (exterior & interior) which come from sub-contractors & outside
vendors. PTS is not a high priority at PAG for the production engineers.
And until it becomes so, these bottlenecks will continue to exist & PTS
will remain 'difficult' to get in certain high-demand models.
But I am curious. What third party painter do you think they would
be sent to? Earl Scheib GmbH in nearby Fellbach?
Saludos,
Eduardo
Scottsdale
Originally Posted by Whoopsy
Sorry Eduardo,
Unotaz is correct.
True PTS are sent off to a 3rd party for all models be
it a Stuttgart production car or Leipzig production car.
That's why the limited capacity. It also takes time to
validate and inspect the finish to pass Porsche's own
standard.
The so called 'fake' PTS like the black, orange and
yellow on the R are painted in house, that part is
correct.
Originally Posted by WSH
Looks like Mr. PTS just got schooled
Originally Posted by Z356
No problem. We are here to learn from each other.
I must tell all of you that this is the first time ever
that I hear that Porsche sends all PTS cars to a third
party for paint. If true, I am really & truly surprised.
As Reagan said, 'trust but verify'. I'll report back when
I get this confirmed as 'fact'.
Saludos,
Eduardo
Scottsdale
Originally Posted by Whoopsy
Don't say that.
Before we always assume PTS cars are all painted
at Porsche's state of the art paint shop that they
'say' can paint any colour.
But now it turns out isn't the case, true PTS cars'
body and panels are send out to third party and
basically hand painted one by one.
I was quite shocked to hear that Friday at the
Leipzig plant.
Originally Posted by unotaz
+1
Eduardo's expertise and contribution on PTS and
exclusive options have been outstanding! I think
I lost count how many times I had used his posts
to spec out my cars!
****
Which leads up to Whoopsy's so-called update yesterday:
Originally Posted by Whoopsy
Anyway, when I stopped by Stuttgart to config my R,
I had new information about PTS. It was seems I was
told an incomplete statement at Leipzig about PTS and
I wasn't aware enough to dig deeper, unlike someone
else here who had more of an interest in PTS and would
know to ask more.
The PTS question was brought up again in Stuttgart, and
the detail was that PTS is done in house in Stuttgart, while
PTS is done by a 3rd party in Leipzig. So the Panamera
and Cayennes gets the 3rd party treatment only.
I was told 'all cars are painted by 3rd party' in Leipzig,
which is correct in the person's point of view as all cars
from 'Leipzig' which is that factory. But not 'all cars' as
in all Porsche cars.
So here is the bottom line. Whoopsy's statement which
he posted on 4/23/2016 which said 'Sorry Eduardo...
True PTS are sent off to a 3rd party for all models be it
a Stuttgart production car or Leipzig production car'
was admittedly false.
And to prevent further confusion (which his original posting
has created ever since!), I feel the need to point out that
the statements made yesterday about 3rd party PTS at Leipzig,
if left unchallenged, will lead to more confusion on the topic,
not less! Let me explain:
I believe that one of Whoopsy's statement yesterday is also
incorrect & misleading. He states that "PTS is done by a 3rd
party in Leipzig. So the Panamera and Cayennes gets the 3rd
party treatment only. I was told 'all cars are painted by
3rd party' in Leipzig, which is correct in the person's point
of view as all cars from 'Leipzig' which is that factory."
This is not so. All Panameras have been welded together
& painted at a VW plant in Hanover since day one for that
model. So all Panameras are painted at Hanover, whether
it's standard color offerings or PTS. To say PTS is done by
a third party is misleading. Similarly, all Cayennes are welded,
painted & partially assembled in Bratislavia, Slovakia at another
VW Group plant. That has been the case since day one of that
model. So any Cayenne that is painted standard colors & those
rare PTS examples are done in Bratislava. The Macan is welded,
painted & assembled almost 100% at Leipzig*. I believe that
PTS Macans are done at Leipzig's state-of-the-art paint facility
& not by a 3rd party. And until they move all 718 Cayman
production to Stuttgart from the VW Group Karmann plant at
Osnabrück (expected in the future), the 981-era Caymans &
even some 981 Boxsters were welded, painted & assembled
at that facility. And that includes Cayman PTS. So to say that
this makes PTS a third party proposition Leipzig's Panamera,
Cayenne or Macan is either false or misleading. PAG doesn't
consider the Hanover, Bratislava & Osnabrück facilities as
'third party' vendors or sub-contractors, as was implied in
Whoopsy's statement.
I contacted Porsche officials after Whoopsy made his grandiose
statements on April 23rd on this forum. They refused to engage
simply because the claim he made of third party PTS was deemed
so wrong it didn't merit a response. Yet here at Rennlist, because
Whoopsy owns a 918 & attends all sorts of 918 events sponsored
by PAG, many assumed he must be 'totally in the know'. Well, that
was not the case this time around. Instead, we all got 'schooled',
or at least taken on a dubious ride, not just 'Mr. PTS'.
You, the reader, must decide what to believe you read on Rennlist
about PTS & consider carefully the sources where that information
is coming from. Also if the person relaying the 'information' has
the experience necessary to understand the larger picture behind
statements bandied about at a PAG event. So caveat emptor.
*Petrol engines are all assembled in Stuttgart. Hybrid/diesel engines
may be put together elsewhere.
Sébastien in France just posted this in the 981 forum.
It should be an opportunity for one of you in Europe,
or the Middle East, to pick up this unique PTS 'Gulf Blau'
with factory 'Pepita/houndstooth' seat inlays 981 Spyder!
Originally Posted by Targa75
I must unfortunately sale that car next month...
Anyone interested please mail me
I am with the car all summer in the south of France then back in Paris in the first days of september. It is a great car and so exclusive ! Sverdeaux@gmail.com
03-02-2016, 04:54 PM
