Clicking M97 with only 7300 miles - Help needed!
07-16-2012, 09:50 PM
#16
Race Director
I'm back with a follow-up:
I picked up the car about an hour ago. The clanging is gone. I brought the car to another reputable Houston Porsche shop and let them have a listen. They couldn't hear anything amiss at all.
All the first shop did to "fix" it is replace the (8.2 quarts of brand new, Pennzoil Ultra Euro... $$$) 5W-40 with 0W-30 synthetic and drove it. The owner of the shop thinks that something went amiss during my oil change; perhaps dislodging a carbon deposit that the 30 weight was able to address. He admitted it's completely speculative and didn't like the answer, but short of tearing the engine apart, that was his best guess.
What are the chances that the oil was bad? I had previously used Pennzoil Ultra Euro 5W-40 that I bought at Ferrari of Houston - it worked great. The PU that I used for this oil change was purchased by the case off of Amazon. None of it was used until I did the oil change. I still have 4 quarts of it that I'm rather weary of using.
I picked up the car about an hour ago. The clanging is gone. I brought the car to another reputable Houston Porsche shop and let them have a listen. They couldn't hear anything amiss at all.
All the first shop did to "fix" it is replace the (8.2 quarts of brand new, Pennzoil Ultra Euro... $$$) 5W-40 with 0W-30 synthetic and drove it. The owner of the shop thinks that something went amiss during my oil change; perhaps dislodging a carbon deposit that the 30 weight was able to address. He admitted it's completely speculative and didn't like the answer, but short of tearing the engine apart, that was his best guess.
What are the chances that the oil was bad? I had previously used Pennzoil Ultra Euro 5W-40 that I bought at Ferrari of Houston - it worked great. The PU that I used for this oil change was purchased by the case off of Amazon. None of it was used until I did the oil change. I still have 4 quarts of it that I'm rather weary of using.
This air comes from the oil filter housing -- mainly. The air has to go somewhere when the engine starts and the oil begins to flow and fill up the oil filter housing and flow through the filter and the passages to the rest of the engine.
When I do an oil change I like to fill up the oil filter housing with its new filter element installed nearly full with fresh oil to (I believe) reduce the amount of air that gets pushed through the oil passages.
Some techs I have talked to tell me they never bother doing this. However, they run the engine after the oil change which gives the air -- if there is any -- a chance to be flushed/removed.
Thus the customer never gets to hear the engine fired up immediately after an oil/filter change and hearing one fired up right after an oil change can be a bit of an eye opener.
Air is compressible while oil is not. Thus with air in the zero lash adjuster instead of the bucket maintaining the proper clearance between the camshaft lobe and the bucket top/face there can be some extra clearance or motion that you can hear as a ticking, clickity/clackity noise.
How is the air removed?
Well, by running the engine. Hard evidence is hard to come by so some of this is speculation based on second hand info but I believe that once some bit of air gets into one of these it can take some running to remove the bit of air.
Switching to a 0w-30 oil could have helped -- though I want to make it clear I would never advise running this oil ever -- since this oil is circulated with more violence. I mean this is an exaggeration and not perfect but due to time limitations it will have to suffice but it is comparable to squeezing a bottle of honey at room temp (5w-40 oil) vs. a bottle of vinegar/oil dressing (0w-30 oil).
The presence of this lighter oil can flush/coax the oil/air in the lifter out and replace it with while a thinner oil one with no air in it.
Thus the lifter quiets down.
There is a slim (very slim) possibility the oil was bad. Bad in that one or more of the 5w-40 bottles contained something else. Instead of say 5w-40 it might have been 0w-20 or who knows. I have seen my share of other things mislabeled so this is not something from the Twilight Zone.
In this same vein, the oil could have been contaminated.
Yet another possibility -- I have seen this myself -- is the oil had been tampered with. In shopping for oil at a local auto parts store -- a year or two back -- I spotted an oil bottle that for some reason -- I forget now why -- caught my eye. I picked up the bottle and noticed the cap had its seal broken. I unscrewed the cap and saw in the bottle not fresh virgin oil but oil that looked like it had come from an engine. I suspect someone refilled one or more bottles of new oil -- after emptying them of their new oil -- refilled with old used oil and the bottles brought back for a refund and the clerk never bothered to check if the returned bottles of oil had been opened. Of course I brought what I had found to the attention of the store clerks.
Another source of rather scary engine noises is the engine sheds some combustion chamber deposits. This is more likely to happen if the engine is operated in humid conditions and not warmed up. Warm rather moist/damp air in the combustion chamber loosens the combustion chamber deposits and a piece of this breaks free inside the combustion chamber. While in almost all cases the stuff is harmless a piece can end up between a valve and its seat and prevent the valve from closing properly. The result in a ticky noise that sound like a bad lifter, a bad plug, or sometime similar.
Eventually the material is pounded to dust and the valve head once again makes good contact with its seat and the noise goes away.
Even before the piece lodges somewhere it can make some noise as there is not much clearance between the piston crown and portions of the head chamber into which it moves.
Speculation all of it but plausible.
The bottom line is the engine is quiet once again and it has a proper oil in it.
I'd say you need to treat yourself to a nice drive of your car.
Sincerely,
Macster.
07-17-2012, 01:24 PM
#18
During the first engine start after an oil change there's always a chance a slug of air gets pushed along/through the oil passages and this can put some air into one or more zero lash valve adjusters.
This air comes from the oil filter housing -- mainly. The air has to go somewhere when the engine starts and the oil begins to flow and fill up the oil filter housing and flow through the filter and the passages to the rest of the engine.
When I do an oil change I like to fill up the oil filter housing with its new filter element installed nearly full with fresh oil to (I believe) reduce the amount of air that gets pushed through the oil passages.
Some techs I have talked to tell me they never bother doing this. However, they run the engine after the oil change which gives the air -- if there is any -- a chance to be flushed/removed.
Thus the customer never gets to hear the engine fired up immediately after an oil/filter change and hearing one fired up right after an oil change can be a bit of an eye opener.
Air is compressible while oil is not. Thus with air in the zero lash adjuster instead of the bucket maintaining the proper clearance between the camshaft lobe and the bucket top/face there can be some extra clearance or motion that you can hear as a ticking, clickity/clackity noise.
How is the air removed?
Well, by running the engine. Hard evidence is hard to come by so some of this is speculation based on second hand info but I believe that once some bit of air gets into one of these it can take some running to remove the bit of air.
Switching to a 0w-30 oil could have helped -- though I want to make it clear I would never advise running this oil ever -- since this oil is circulated with more violence. I mean this is an exaggeration and not perfect but due to time limitations it will have to suffice but it is comparable to squeezing a bottle of honey at room temp (5w-40 oil) vs. a bottle of vinegar/oil dressing (0w-30 oil).
The presence of this lighter oil can flush/coax the oil/air in the lifter out and replace it with while a thinner oil one with no air in it.
Thus the lifter quiets down.
There is a slim (very slim) possibility the oil was bad. Bad in that one or more of the 5w-40 bottles contained something else. Instead of say 5w-40 it might have been 0w-20 or who knows. I have seen my share of other things mislabeled so this is not something from the Twilight Zone.
In this same vein, the oil could have been contaminated.
Yet another possibility -- I have seen this myself -- is the oil had been tampered with. In shopping for oil at a local auto parts store -- a year or two back -- I spotted an oil bottle that for some reason -- I forget now why -- caught my eye. I picked up the bottle and noticed the cap had its seal broken. I unscrewed the cap and saw in the bottle not fresh virgin oil but oil that looked like it had come from an engine. I suspect someone refilled one or more bottles of new oil -- after emptying them of their new oil -- refilled with old used oil and the bottles brought back for a refund and the clerk never bothered to check if the returned bottles of oil had been opened. Of course I brought what I had found to the attention of the store clerks.
Another source of rather scary engine noises is the engine sheds some combustion chamber deposits. This is more likely to happen if the engine is operated in humid conditions and not warmed up. Warm rather moist/damp air in the combustion chamber loosens the combustion chamber deposits and a piece of this breaks free inside the combustion chamber. While in almost all cases the stuff is harmless a piece can end up between a valve and its seat and prevent the valve from closing properly. The result in a ticky noise that sound like a bad lifter, a bad plug, or sometime similar.
Eventually the material is pounded to dust and the valve head once again makes good contact with its seat and the noise goes away.
Even before the piece lodges somewhere it can make some noise as there is not much clearance between the piston crown and portions of the head chamber into which it moves.
Speculation all of it but plausible.
The bottom line is the engine is quiet once again and it has a proper oil in it.
I'd say you need to treat yourself to a nice drive of your car.
Sincerely,
Macster.
This air comes from the oil filter housing -- mainly. The air has to go somewhere when the engine starts and the oil begins to flow and fill up the oil filter housing and flow through the filter and the passages to the rest of the engine.
When I do an oil change I like to fill up the oil filter housing with its new filter element installed nearly full with fresh oil to (I believe) reduce the amount of air that gets pushed through the oil passages.
Some techs I have talked to tell me they never bother doing this. However, they run the engine after the oil change which gives the air -- if there is any -- a chance to be flushed/removed.
Thus the customer never gets to hear the engine fired up immediately after an oil/filter change and hearing one fired up right after an oil change can be a bit of an eye opener.
Air is compressible while oil is not. Thus with air in the zero lash adjuster instead of the bucket maintaining the proper clearance between the camshaft lobe and the bucket top/face there can be some extra clearance or motion that you can hear as a ticking, clickity/clackity noise.
How is the air removed?
Well, by running the engine. Hard evidence is hard to come by so some of this is speculation based on second hand info but I believe that once some bit of air gets into one of these it can take some running to remove the bit of air.
Switching to a 0w-30 oil could have helped -- though I want to make it clear I would never advise running this oil ever -- since this oil is circulated with more violence. I mean this is an exaggeration and not perfect but due to time limitations it will have to suffice but it is comparable to squeezing a bottle of honey at room temp (5w-40 oil) vs. a bottle of vinegar/oil dressing (0w-30 oil).
The presence of this lighter oil can flush/coax the oil/air in the lifter out and replace it with while a thinner oil one with no air in it.
Thus the lifter quiets down.
There is a slim (very slim) possibility the oil was bad. Bad in that one or more of the 5w-40 bottles contained something else. Instead of say 5w-40 it might have been 0w-20 or who knows. I have seen my share of other things mislabeled so this is not something from the Twilight Zone.
In this same vein, the oil could have been contaminated.
Yet another possibility -- I have seen this myself -- is the oil had been tampered with. In shopping for oil at a local auto parts store -- a year or two back -- I spotted an oil bottle that for some reason -- I forget now why -- caught my eye. I picked up the bottle and noticed the cap had its seal broken. I unscrewed the cap and saw in the bottle not fresh virgin oil but oil that looked like it had come from an engine. I suspect someone refilled one or more bottles of new oil -- after emptying them of their new oil -- refilled with old used oil and the bottles brought back for a refund and the clerk never bothered to check if the returned bottles of oil had been opened. Of course I brought what I had found to the attention of the store clerks.
Another source of rather scary engine noises is the engine sheds some combustion chamber deposits. This is more likely to happen if the engine is operated in humid conditions and not warmed up. Warm rather moist/damp air in the combustion chamber loosens the combustion chamber deposits and a piece of this breaks free inside the combustion chamber. While in almost all cases the stuff is harmless a piece can end up between a valve and its seat and prevent the valve from closing properly. The result in a ticky noise that sound like a bad lifter, a bad plug, or sometime similar.
Eventually the material is pounded to dust and the valve head once again makes good contact with its seat and the noise goes away.
Even before the piece lodges somewhere it can make some noise as there is not much clearance between the piston crown and portions of the head chamber into which it moves.
Speculation all of it but plausible.
The bottom line is the engine is quiet once again and it has a proper oil in it.
I'd say you need to treat yourself to a nice drive of your car.
Sincerely,
Macster.
07-18-2012, 02:14 AM
#19
fake oil?
+1 for filling the oil filter with oil before screwing back on.
I asked my indie what oil to use when I bought my car .. he said only m1 0w40 .. why? The oil acts like hydraulic fluid in these engines ... I know many here run castrol 5w40 with no issues .. but not too many running penzoil.
I work in the electronics industry and there is a big problem with remarked parts coming from China. Wouldn't take a genius to fill fake pens plat bottles with cheap oil and pass it off for a profit ... although you'd think if you got the oil from ferrari dealer it would be safe ... but maybe not. I'm not an oil expert; but running the wrong stuff could probably make lifters sound different due to different viscocity properties .. hence issue at temp when oil would be thinner than expected. Thicker oil at cold might dampen any nouse more ... Notice any difference in oil pressure at idle and 2,3k rpm?
Id get the5w30 out of there asap and change back to m1 ....hopefully the noise doesn't come back.
I asked my indie what oil to use when I bought my car .. he said only m1 0w40 .. why? The oil acts like hydraulic fluid in these engines ... I know many here run castrol 5w40 with no issues .. but not too many running penzoil.
I work in the electronics industry and there is a big problem with remarked parts coming from China. Wouldn't take a genius to fill fake pens plat bottles with cheap oil and pass it off for a profit ... although you'd think if you got the oil from ferrari dealer it would be safe ... but maybe not. I'm not an oil expert; but running the wrong stuff could probably make lifters sound different due to different viscocity properties .. hence issue at temp when oil would be thinner than expected. Thicker oil at cold might dampen any nouse more ... Notice any difference in oil pressure at idle and 2,3k rpm?
Id get the5w30 out of there asap and change back to m1 ....hopefully the noise doesn't come back.
