Notices
987 Forum Discussion about the Cayman/Boxster variants (2004-2012)
Sponsored by:
Sponsored by:

The secret behind the exhaust smoke upon startup 2.9L Caymans - An inconvenient truth

Thread Tools
 
Search this Thread
 
Old 02-13-2012, 07:15 AM
  #16  
CaymanPower
Racer
Thread Starter
 
CaymanPower's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 287
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by Boxster in my Future?


There is far more and longer lasting smoke in your videos that what I've ever seen in my 2.9 exhaust. As mentioned, mine does not smoke all the time at start-up. And since the oil change, it is infrequent. It DID consume nearly 3 quarts before I added oil, then had it changed. It's been nearly one year and about 3,500 miles since then, and according to the questionable digital read-out, I maybe 1/2 quart low now. The car,however, is in storage and so I cannot do any tests right now. When the weather warms up I am taking it to the dealer for its next oil change and I will do more checking of the start-up exhaust appearance, more investigating and dialogue before taking it in. I am still not pleased that there is any smoke upon start-up, but the fact that the oil level was only marginally lower after driving those 3,500 miles since that last oil change makes me feel this is likely not serious. In your case, it clearly was.
Doug,

Let me clarify this better for you:
  1. The smoke was ALSO occasional in my case and became more infrequent as the outside temperatures got cooler;
  2. The amount and long-lasting smoke ONLY became that apparent after I rerouted and split the exhaust tailpipe. Before that, the smoke was diluted by mixing into the exhaust muffler with the 'clean' exhaust gas coming from the other side of the engine (bank #1). With the OEM tailpipe there's only one way out for all the exhaust gases (see pictures above), therefore they mix together and dilute each other reducing the amount of visible smoke;
  3. Before the pistons replacement I did NOT have high oil consumption.

Do you understand this?

Please, next time you visit the dealer ask for a borescopy test (camera inserted to get cylinder images). If the dealer refuses to do it go to an indy shop (specialized in Porsche engines) and have it done. This is not an expensive test and it can give you a clear view, literally, of what is going on inside your engine.

I have good reasons to believe that you have the same problem than me.

Of course, you can have your exhaust tailpipe rerouted and split like I did and then you will know for sure! An indy shop will do it for you.

Last edited by CaymanPower; 02-13-2012 at 10:17 AM.
Old 02-14-2012, 05:16 PM
  #17  
Boxster in my Future?
Advanced
 
Boxster in my Future?'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 64
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default

It will be another 6 weeks before the snowy season is over and the car comes out of storage. But I will follow up on the borescopy test when I take it in.

Doug
Old 02-14-2012, 11:06 PM
  #18  
CaymanPower
Racer
Thread Starter
 
CaymanPower's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 287
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default

The following videos of others 2.9L engines (a Cayman and a Boxster) just show how my engine's exhaust smoke occasionally looked like (before I rerouted and split the exhaust tailpipe). It was the EXACT same thing with my Cayman!

Doug,

Does it resemble, in any way, your 2.9 exhaust?

If so, then you have the same problem that I did. The pistons replacement cured this smoke and after 10.5k miles I never ever saw ANY exhaust smoke again.

The exhaust smoke in any of these videos is NOT normal!!! This is OIL smoke (you can see the blue haze)

2.9 Cayman:

2.9 Boxster:

Last edited by CaymanPower; 02-15-2012 at 05:39 AM.
Old 02-15-2012, 01:53 PM
  #19  
CaymanPower
Racer
Thread Starter
 
CaymanPower's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 287
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by Boxster in my Future?
I have a 2009 base Boxster which, of course, is not DFI. During the first year, it would blow smoke upon startup, unless the engine was warm and parked for under an hour or so. Sometimes the smoke was modest, sometimes it was very noticeable. After the 1st oil change (at about 6K miles) this smoke upon startup issue calmed down, but it has not completely gone away. Now, it will sometimes start with no smoke, but other times, it does.
Since you say that sometimes the smoke was very noticeable it's reasonable for me to assume that the smoke you are talking about quite ressembles that of the above videos.

What you need to know is that Porsche dealer will keep on telling you (like in my case) the smoke is normal.

At the very best, they will perform the DME reflash per Porsche's 2009 TSB which does NOT solve the problem but tries to disguise it instead. That's what very likely happened in your 1st oil change (at about 6K miles) - besides changing the oil they reflashed your engine's DME (you can check this out, just give your dealer a call). And unfortunately, that's how far they will ever go (without further evidence from you) regarding this smoke upon startup issue.

Thus, you need to show them that there is an incongruity as far as 'the smoke is normal' claim is concerned (like a TSB that doesn't solve the problem wouldn't be enough!).

What you have to do is what I did... reroute and split the exhaust tailpipe and then ask them this simple question:

If the exhust smoke is normal with flat engines how come ONLY half of the engine smokes - bank #2 (rear view left side)?!

Porsche knows perfectly well, as I know, that this is NOT normal and that this is NOT an isolated case - if I count my two 2.9 Caymans, your 2.9 Boxster and both the 2.9 Boxster and the 2.9 Cayman from those videos, we have already 5 known cases here! Now just imagine all those cases where the owner doesn't care because he/she is told that the smoke is normal?!

There's a reason for Porsche to have dropped the 2.9L engine altogether in favour of the 2.7L engine (same power figures) in the new upcoming 981 Boxster/Cayman when, at the same time, they kept the 3.4L engine from the current 987.2 Boxster S/Cayman S and didn't reduce the displacement in similar fashion to 3.2L.

What is more striking still is the fact that by virtue of these engines design the bank #2 cylinders are forced to deal with the highest engine temperatures, therefore, bank #2 ALWAYS seem to be the problematic one!

Last edited by CaymanPower; 02-15-2012 at 05:52 PM.
Old 02-15-2012, 03:01 PM
  #20  
CaymanPower
Racer
Thread Starter
 
CaymanPower's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 287
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default

Unfortunately, replacing the pistons isn't good enough because the ALUSIL cylinder bores must be honed or else the new rings will never seat properly and you will end up with high oil consumption like I did, albeit without the smoke upon startup issue! Honing these bores properly is a HIGH precison job as the tolerances are VERY tight and NO Porsche dealer is up to the task. In my case, the bores weren't honed and I highly doubt that they were properly tested for 'ovality' also, but I expect that the bores are likely less susceptible to distortion the engine being of the 'closed deck' type!

So, a NEW engine is the only good option for this smoke issue.
Old 02-16-2012, 03:54 PM
  #21  
CaymanPower
Racer
Thread Starter
 
CaymanPower's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 287
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default

You understand now why this is an inconvenient truth... because a new engine is required!

Next, you can see ALUSIL (a silicon powder is mixed in to the aluminium alloy when casting the block) cylinder bores from bank #2 where the smoke was coming from. They looked good and didn't have any scratches deep enough to catch your nail on:

Cylinder #4



Cylinder #5



Cylinder #6




In the second picture from each cylinder, one can clearly see two parallel lines that run the length of the whole piston travel showing the side where the piston squeezes against the cylinder wall to transfer the linear motion of the piston into rotating motion of the crankshaft through the con-rod - the thrust side!
Old 02-18-2012, 04:34 PM
  #22  
Boxster in my Future?
Advanced
 
Boxster in my Future?'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 64
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default

On occasion, my exhaust is pretty close to what you see in those videos. On most other occasions, there is virtually no or absolutely no smoke. How would you explain that? I am also uneasy about this since your post has not attracted others to chime in which leads me to believe most 2.9's don't have this issue. Yes?

Doug
Old 02-20-2012, 03:02 PM
  #23  
CaymanPower
Racer
Thread Starter
 
CaymanPower's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 287
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default

Doug,

First of all thank you for your thoughtful questions!


Originally Posted by Boxster in my Future?
On occasion, my exhaust is pretty close to what you see in those videos. On most other occasions, there is virtually no or absolutely no smoke. How would you explain that?
As I've already said the exhaust smoke in my Cayman was ALSO occasional. It's the exact same thing.

By evidence gathered from my experience with this issue and comprehensively presented here (and elsewhere) the problem arises, contrary to my expectations, from the excessive initial bore to piston clearance. Since these engines smoke upon startup from new there IS some issue with the factory size/shape tolerances of the pistons.

So, why is the smoke occasional and why does only bank 2 smoke?
  1. The front and back of the piston pushes against the cylinder wall to transfer the pressure pushing it down into a force down the con-rod to turn the crankshaft;
  2. The heat from the piston is dissipated through the piston rings, the oil mist that is in contact with it and the faces of the piston as it rubs against the cylinder wall;
  3. There are oil spray jets fitted to each cylinder (see picture below) to cool the piston and these will also lubricate the bores once sufficient has been sprayed up into the piston crown area to spread out to the bore area;
  4. So normally there will always be a thin oil film in the contact area between the piston and the cylinder wall (through which the heat is dissipated) to ensure that the two surfaces don't rub directly against each other;
  5. Because the piston is hotter than the cylinder some clearance must exist between them to allow for piston expansion;
  6. If this clearance is more than it needs to be to run ideally - because it has to allow for the expansion of the piston - the pistons will NOT expand enough to fit well in the bores and the ring gaps will be so large that the blow by will increase;
  7. Allowing pressure above to blow MORE hot gases past the piston rings means burning or overheating the oil film and blow away some of the oil that should be present – increasing the friction and heating the oil even more while it has less in the area to cool the piston anyway;
  8. Surface piston temperatures increase, the cylinder walls run hotter and oil viscosity drops;
  9. That can result in the viscosity of the oil becoming too low in SOME circumstances and under SOME driving conditions;
  10. The cylinder and piston lifespan will be reduced depending on how hard (higher range of temperatures) and how often the car is driven;
  11. When the engine has stopped the pistons sit on the bottom face of the bores (through gravity) and HOT oil seeps away from the stationary piston as it shrinks in SIZE on cooling - the oil tries to drop or flow down to the bottom of the bore.
  12. A tight clearance will keep some oil in the gap in between the piston and the bore (due to surface tension) but if the gap gets too big it will allow the oil to slide away leaving the top of the piston (the thrust face on bank 2) - the oil film being too far away from the cylinder wall to prevent it draining down to the bottom of the cylinder as the engine cools down;
  13. Due to the extra piston clearance, the space left gradually fills up with carbon and congealed oil sludge (from blow-by);
  14. Bank 2 thrust side is the MOST vulnerable because when the engine is running, cooling is less effective in there - the coolest coolant enters under the cylinders first and as it travels upwards and picks up the heat the temperature rises, by the time it reaches bank 2 thrust side its cooling potential is already greatly diminished, thus the thrust side on bank 2 will always run hotter than that of bank 1 (remember that the cylinders are horizontally opposed and the thrust side on bank 2 corresponds to the upper cylinder wall whereas on bank 1 it's the lower cylinder wall);
  15. If, OCCASIONALLY, enough congealed oil sludge and carbon exist around the area that there is a gap between the piston and the cylinder wall (the thrust face on bank 2) then oil, that would otherwise drip into the piston through its drain back holes (see picture below), will drip onto the cylinder bore on resting the engine and smoke will be the result from burning it upon the next startup.


Piston oil jet:


Piston's oil drain back holes:



Originally Posted by Boxster in my Future?
I am also uneasy about this since your post has not attracted others to chime in which leads me to believe most 2.9's don't have this issue. Yes?

Doug

Doug,

Through tighter bore clearances and better heat dissipation engine manufacturers were able to deliver increased performance, lower fuel consumption, reduced emissions, better thermal balance, better thermal conductivity (cooling), faster warm up times and the ability to run with reduced coolant quality.

I don't believe that most of the 2.9's owners will ever realize that despite the oil smoke upon startup issue, which they are WRONGLY told that it is normal, simply because most of the 2.9's owners don't have anything to compare with except for the fact that they own a Porsche.

So, they don't care.

Last edited by CaymanPower; 02-20-2012 at 03:22 PM.
Old 02-27-2012, 02:48 PM
  #24  
CaymanPower
Racer
Thread Starter
 
CaymanPower's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 287
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default

In the most severe cases - earlier 2.9 Cayman/Boxster versions (MY09) - where the excessive initial bore to piston clearance IS more pronounced due to a greater out of spec factory tolerances in the size/shape of the first pistons (P/N: 9A1 103 029 63), scoring of the cylinder walls on both cylinder banks occurs with VERY low mileage (see pictures below).

Despite that, Porsche issued a 2009 TSB for the 2.9 Caymans/Boxsters, which consisted in a DME reflash, BUT only concerning the oil smoke upon startup. So, what does this reflash do after all?!

With the new oil pump in the 9A1 engines, the required oil pressure and oil volume is set for each engine operating state defined using a map in the DME control unit - depending on the engine speed, engine load, engine oil temperature and the expected change in engine speed.

Thus, the reflash mainly re-programs the DME to force the delivery of more oil volume from the demand-controlled oil pump for the entire engine map (also upon startup) in an attempt to reduce the cylinder wear and prolong the life of the engine by disguising the real problem.

Unfortunately, that's the Porsche way!


Just read the following testimonial:


In terms of the smoking - it originally only happened from warm occasionally (so if i let the car sit for an hour, i got the smoke, if i switched it off and straight back on again, no smoke), but in any case it was every time i started it from warm after it had been sat for perhaps an hour. I got Porsche to take a look and they did the DME flash, and after that it also smoked when i started it from COLD! So it got worse!

To give you an idea, i had the car for 1 week, and it spent 5 days of that 1 week in garages, and in the 2 days of ownership i saw it smoke 8 times!

Regardless of what others say about this potential causes for the smoke, from an impartial point of view all i can say is that mine had a terminal fault and the smoking is likely to have been a sympton of this (according to porsche themselves). And i feel its appropriate to publicly thank you for your "campaign" around this issue, which whilst many other people have attempted to slate you for, i for one have probably saved myself £12,000 for a new engine for being frightened enough by your posts to go and get it checked out - so thank you.

And i would urge anyone else with a cayman under warranty to get a borescope test done just as a matter of course, it could be worth a new engine!
Cayman gen 2 - white smoke on start up - HELP!!!


Borescope cylinder wall pics (all 6 of them on a 6.4k mile Cayman):






Last edited by CaymanPower; 03-14-2012 at 12:00 PM.
Old 03-14-2012, 11:36 AM
  #25  
CaymanPower
Racer
Thread Starter
 
CaymanPower's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 287
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default

As already explained, oil accumulates on the cylinder walls and the oil film will tend to remain in contact with the cylinder wall as the piston slides across it, so a method of scraping this oil is necessary to prevent oil from entering the combustion chamber as this can lead to detonation which in turn increases carbon build up and raises both piston and oil temperature.

There is three rings on the 2.9 engine's piston - top compression ring, second ring and oil control ring. By todays standards, the second ring serves more as an additional oil control device than it does as a compression sealer (about 85 to 90 percent oil control and only 15 to 10 percent compression control), so both the oil control ring and the second ring perform the scraping function despite the fact that only the oil control ring redirects the accumulated oil to the drain back holes drilled in the piston when the engine is running.

In an attempt to justify the random nature of the smoke upon startup some will say that is due to the piston rings rotation and their end gaps occasionally getting aligned at the bottom of the cylinder bore allowing some oil seepage past the rings (through the end gaps) on resting the engine.

Well, the following video just shows that the second ring (first 6 seconds) in the 2.9 engine is unable to rotate because there is an anti-rotation pin in the ring groove between the ring gap extremities at the top of the piston (around half past 10).

So, the 'aligned ring end gaps at the bottom of the cylinder' theory can't hold up in this engine!

Old 03-14-2012, 12:09 PM
  #26  
San Rensho
Racer
 
San Rensho's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 408
Likes: 0
Received 7 Likes on 7 Posts
Default

Read part 5 on this page when you have a couple of hours to kill. Much will be revealed.

http://www.hartech.org/buyers.html
Old 03-14-2012, 01:40 PM
  #27  
CaymanPower
Racer
Thread Starter
 
CaymanPower's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 287
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by San Rensho
Read part 5 on this page when you have a couple of hours to kill. Much will be revealed.

http://www.hartech.org/buyers.html
I already know that article and although most of my findings pretty much match their explanations (upon which some of my own explanations are based) I don't agree with all its content.

For instance, they say (page 22) and I quote:

Because gravity will naturally pull oil spray downwards and because both spray jets are located at the lower end of the cylinder – the bottom will naturally get better lubrication – once again favouring bank 1.

The older air cooled 911’s also had similar spray jets but there was a significant difference because they were located in the top of the cylinders (not the bottom) so gravity would tend to make the spray hit more of the top of the cylinders and also fall to cover the bottom.
In the 2.9 Caymans/Boxsters the oil squirters are located in the top of the cylinders (like in the older air cooled 911’s) aimed so that the spray is directed at the underside of the piston to cool the piston crown. Thus, their theory regarding the oil squirters favouring bank 1 doesn't hold true for the 2.9 engine (see picture below).

Their article is about the 996 3.6, 997 3.6, 997 3.8 and Cayman S 3.4 engines.

My thread is about the 987.2 2.9 engine (9A1). But nevertheless, you can clearly establish a pattern common to all water cooled Porsche boxer engines.


Another example, they say (page 64) and I quote:

Even with alloy cylinders (or liners) there can be some initial smoke on start up with horizontally opposed cylinder designs because the pistons have oil holes internally to allow oil to reach and lubricate the rings from inside and when the engines are resting – that oil drips onto the horizontal bore and has nowhere to drip away to – tending to run up the cylinder bore and escape on the next start up – but this is insignificant to oil consumption if the engine has alloy cylinders as they have tighter initial bore clearances and quickly run at the correct tolerances – the smoking only lasting a few seconds
That simply is NOT true. The piston oil drain back holes provide a scavenging method for the accumulated oil in the cylinder to drain back into INSIDE the piston away from the bores, plain and simple.


Still in page 64, they say and I quote:

Some engines (even rebuilt ones) have a tendency to occasionally smoke on cold start up for a few seconds. This problem of initial smoking (while the difference in the piston and bore sizes is so large) would not be so noticeable in most conventional engines because the cylinders usually point upwards and oil that sits around the piston and bore when the engine is resting – naturally drips downwards and into the sump. But with the cylinder being horizontal – much more collects in the bottom of the bore and is exposed on the next start up.
If this explanation was valid then why only SOME engines would do it while there are others (like mine after the piston replacement) that NEVER smoke upon startup even though their engines are STILL horizontally opposed?! I'm sorry, but this theory also doesn't hold true.



Last edited by CaymanPower; 03-15-2012 at 06:56 AM.
Old 03-14-2012, 10:01 PM
  #28  
San Rensho
Racer
 
San Rensho's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 408
Likes: 0
Received 7 Likes on 7 Posts
Default

What do you think about Hartech's theory that when , Porshe changed the headgasket design, restricting the coolant flow to cyl 6, especially, that the it led to overheating, causing ovaling of the bore and excessive oil consumption?
Old 03-15-2012, 12:21 AM
  #29  
CaymanPower
Racer
Thread Starter
 
CaymanPower's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 287
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default

As it has been demonstrated, the right clearance between the piston and the cylinder walls is absolutely essential in both horsepower and reliability. However, a thin line exists between too much and not enough.

Keeping a proper piston to cylinder wall clearance whether the piston is cold or at operating temperature presents a BIG challenge to engine manufacturers because as metal warms up, it expands and gets bigger. Different aluminum alloys expand different amounts for the same temperature change, depending on the amounts of silicon, magnesium, manganese, nickel, copper, and other elements that affect the expansion characteristics and wear properties of the piston.

Thus, the piston shape is designed to compensate for both heat expansion and physical forces it will experience as the engine operates.

Forces during the power stroke are greater at the thrust face than elsewhere on the piston sides. Therefore a piston is often made so that its skirt is elliptical or egg-shaped instead of round - the largest diameter being across the thrust faces. When the engine is cold, the two high spots of the piston skirt fit close to the cylinder wall preventing oil seepage. As the temperature rises, expansion causes the piston to become round instead of binding up in the cylinder. Force on the power stroke will push the piston thrust face into the cylinder wall making the piston rounder during its power stroke than it is otherwise.

Also, there is different expansion rates of various parts of the piston - the piston crown is exposed to the high temperatures of combustion and will expand more than the cooler skirt does. To compensate for the greater expansion of its crown, the piston is constructed with a slight taper - the diameter at the lowest part of the skirt is larger than the diameter of the piston crown. As the engine operates at proper temperatures, the piston shape will become round. Piston taper can have a tremendous impact on the actual clearance.

Moreover, forged pistons have less heat dimensional stability and require greater skirt clearance for reliable operation.


For all the above reasons, one can readly see how occasional smoke upon startup can result from someone messing up with the factory tolerances of the pistons size/shape.
Old 03-15-2012, 12:30 AM
  #30  
CaymanPower
Racer
Thread Starter
 
CaymanPower's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 287
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by San Rensho
What do you think about Hartech's theory that when , Porshe changed the headgasket design, restricting the coolant flow to cyl 6, especially, that the it led to overheating, causing ovaling of the bore and excessive oil consumption?
Why do you ask?


Quick Reply: The secret behind the exhaust smoke upon startup 2.9L Caymans - An inconvenient truth



All times are GMT -3. The time now is 01:23 AM.