What is the point having the fastest car when you don't track or don't live in Germay
05-16-2019, 07:03 PM
#31
Rennlist Member
Not to add a third element to the conversation, but money doesn't buy fast lap times and it isn't the sole factor in turning heads.
In the right hands, a base Cayman can outrun a turbo 911 on a technical track. I refuse to instruct in some of the high horse power cars because often times, those guys have more money than sense or skill. It's scary riding shotgun in a car capable of 180+mph with a driver who can't even heel toe.
My Boxster always draws more attention than the GT2s and GT3s at shows. The top end cars might get more attention on the dealership lot, but a few modifications can make any car stand out (good or bad) from the crowd. As I said at my last PCA event, whether onlookers loved it or hated it, they were still taking pictures of it.
In the right hands, a base Cayman can outrun a turbo 911 on a technical track. I refuse to instruct in some of the high horse power cars because often times, those guys have more money than sense or skill. It's scary riding shotgun in a car capable of 180+mph with a driver who can't even heel toe.
My Boxster always draws more attention than the GT2s and GT3s at shows. The top end cars might get more attention on the dealership lot, but a few modifications can make any car stand out (good or bad) from the crowd. As I said at my last PCA event, whether onlookers loved it or hated it, they were still taking pictures of it.
05-16-2019, 11:15 PM
#32
Three Wheelin'
Not to add a third element to the conversation, but money doesn't buy fast lap times and it isn't the sole factor in turning heads.
In the right hands, a base Cayman can outrun a turbo 911 on a technical track. I refuse to instruct in some of the high horse power cars because often times, those guys have more money than sense or skill. It's scary riding shotgun in a car capable of 180+mph with a driver who can't even heel toe.
My Boxster always draws more attention than the GT2s and GT3s at shows. The top end cars might get more attention on the dealership lot, but a few modifications can make any car stand out (good or bad) from the crowd. As I said at my last PCA event, whether onlookers loved it or hated it, they were still taking pictures of it.
In the right hands, a base Cayman can outrun a turbo 911 on a technical track. I refuse to instruct in some of the high horse power cars because often times, those guys have more money than sense or skill. It's scary riding shotgun in a car capable of 180+mph with a driver who can't even heel toe.
My Boxster always draws more attention than the GT2s and GT3s at shows. The top end cars might get more attention on the dealership lot, but a few modifications can make any car stand out (good or bad) from the crowd. As I said at my last PCA event, whether onlookers loved it or hated it, they were still taking pictures of it.
As far as the refusal to instruct, what's up with that? Wouldn't you think those guys would need the instruction the most? What do you do, just make someone else do it?
Also, is the ability to heel-toe really all that important in the broad scope of things? I'd think that most of these high hp cars aren't even manual transmissions, or have some sort of assist like most modern Porsches have with Sport Chrono.
FWIW, I'm glad I don't have to heel-toe in my 981. It kind of sucks saying that because it is one of the more satisfying things about driving a manual, but not in the Boxster. The pedal placement just doesn't feel appropriate, to me at least with size 12s. I have to use the side of my foot and it's like a whole different technique I'd have to learn so- I'll just put it in Sport+ on the track, thanks.
The lack of a proper parking brake is noticeable too.
05-17-2019, 08:52 AM
#33
Lights turn nighttime into daytime. 
Once you've driven a car with a proper light setup, it's hard to go back... Function > Form
On Road Atlanta, you can easily hit 150mph on the back straight, which is very tempting to do when you're on the track. I'm not putting my life in danger by putting it in the hands of a novice with more money than sense. There's a lot of instructors who refuse to ride along in these faster cars and there have been a handful of fast car owners who have been banned from instructed events due to their failure to listen. Most people who buy fast cars buy them to drive fast, so it's understandably frustrating when someone is telling you to slow down.
I'm always willing to help, but I'm only willing to ride along on high speed runs when I know the driver has progressed from slower speeds and/or cars; baby steps.
It's also unnerving to be going that fast without a roll cage and only a simple 3 point belt. Not to mention these are usually road-going cars... Yes, there are vehicle inspections, but inspecting a stationary car doesn't give a full history on wear and maintenance.
That was just an analogy... The ability to heel toe is a very basic technique which can yield positive results and improved vehicle control at very low speeds. I was simply stating that many of these people lack a fundamental understanding of how to correct a car from low speed mistakes. Throw them on track at higher speeds and it only amplifies the errors making it harder to save.
In other words, if you can't complete a smooth, sub 100mph, lap with all driver aids turned off, then you have no business pushing higher speeds.
Huge props to these people for taking the initiative to track their car and learn, rather than do illegal things on the street. But unfortunately, there's always a handful of people who claim to know what they're doing and don't want to listen to the mandatory-issued instructor in their car.
Once you've driven a car with a proper light setup, it's hard to go back... Function > FormI'm always willing to help, but I'm only willing to ride along on high speed runs when I know the driver has progressed from slower speeds and/or cars; baby steps.
It's also unnerving to be going that fast without a roll cage and only a simple 3 point belt. Not to mention these are usually road-going cars... Yes, there are vehicle inspections, but inspecting a stationary car doesn't give a full history on wear and maintenance.
In other words, if you can't complete a smooth, sub 100mph, lap with all driver aids turned off, then you have no business pushing higher speeds.
Huge props to these people for taking the initiative to track their car and learn, rather than do illegal things on the street. But unfortunately, there's always a handful of people who claim to know what they're doing and don't want to listen to the mandatory-issued instructor in their car.
05-17-2019, 09:00 AM
#34
Instructor
I don't know how it works in your situation, but in my local club we have 4 groups, from L1 to L4, where L1 is beginner and L4 is instructor. You cannot progress from one to the next without 6 individual instructors giving the go-ahead. Discipline is important, not just for the safety of the instructor, but for the driver and all the other drivers (and marshals) out there. This is why I stick to club events and avoid open track days completely.
05-17-2019, 11:59 AM
#36
Rennlist Member
This is getting pretty derailed, but I'm with nameideas on this one. Instructing a green student in a very fast (for me, that's ~450hp and up) car is pretty damn scary and can present real danger. Several have died in the right seat doing just that, so it's not really something to make fun of avoiding. I'd support organizations not letting green students bring cars with mega power, despite my general dislike for limiting peoples' choices.
05-17-2019, 12:21 PM
#37
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Following up on the instructor and high HP. A fellow instructor told my wife she didn't like instructing anymore. Why? She relayed one story that summed it up. New car, temp tags, lousy line and nannies kicked in. She suggested her student take a different line so the nannies dont kick in. The response was something to the effect of why? Im having fun doing what I'm doing.
Do you want to ride shotgun with that person? When a few friends of mine became instructors I quietly told them to switch students with me if they felt in the slightest they were getting bullied. They didnt have to explain why, just say swap and I would say we are trying different techniques with students and later on we would ask them which works better. I'll use my open face helmet without a communicaator. They will get the message. Fortunately we didnt need to do that. But I did when I was new. I was with one of my first students, and not knowing protocol I asked a senior instructor to jump in for a session. I am pretty sure the turbo stayed in 3rd on the long straight and brakes were applied when asked. Something I got a little better at now than when I was first instructing.
If someone want to learn there are plenty of folks anxious to help. If someone wants to kill themself with a 3,000 pound explsive rocket I dont need to go along for the ride. I am perfectly capable of doing that on my own.
Do you want to ride shotgun with that person? When a few friends of mine became instructors I quietly told them to switch students with me if they felt in the slightest they were getting bullied. They didnt have to explain why, just say swap and I would say we are trying different techniques with students and later on we would ask them which works better. I'll use my open face helmet without a communicaator. They will get the message. Fortunately we didnt need to do that. But I did when I was new. I was with one of my first students, and not knowing protocol I asked a senior instructor to jump in for a session. I am pretty sure the turbo stayed in 3rd on the long straight and brakes were applied when asked. Something I got a little better at now than when I was first instructing.
If someone want to learn there are plenty of folks anxious to help. If someone wants to kill themself with a 3,000 pound explsive rocket I dont need to go along for the ride. I am perfectly capable of doing that on my own.
05-17-2019, 01:00 PM
#38
Three Wheelin'
My perspective is coming from the only "real" track I've ever been on, Summit Point. And it was the Shenandoah circuit to boot, which peels off a significant chunk of Summit's modest long back straight. I got my M4 up over 100 but just barely. Based on my limited sample set, it was surprising for me to hear that some instructors would just flat out refuse to instruct- but I can understand the "Type A" personalities that come to a trackday in their McLaren or 911 Turbo and feel like they already know what they're doing. To me, I can't relate to ignoring the instructor, but I've seen too many cars and coffee idiots (literally EVERY time) to know that they're out there.
05-17-2019, 10:10 PM
#39
Three Wheelin'
Funny too, as I've been around tracks and professionals for years, and there's always that guy seeking more attention...
05-27-2019, 08:02 PM
#40
In praise of the base car
I have only owned kind of low rent versions of nice cars.. an older lancia scorpion that was road raced.. nothing stock.. no air conditioning. No emissions , a fire control system and racing harness and non street tires. It was not pristine, but could reach 160 and make me smile.
A porsche 944 with ok paint and ok interior , but race tires so that pebbles stuck to the tires... it had serious brakes that cost me half as much as the car. It got new suspension and brakes. I am no pro racer, but that car taught me a lot about cars. Porsche in particular.
So i am older and beat up more than i was. But bought a bmw 3 series last year and have enjoyed it. Its not fast, and its been out in wisconsin winter.. but i like it.
I am learning about pretty cheap boxsters and the cheaper cayman cars available... not show or race cars or pristine.. but i will love it and enjoy the ownership at least as much as anyone with any porsche.
A porsche 944 with ok paint and ok interior , but race tires so that pebbles stuck to the tires... it had serious brakes that cost me half as much as the car. It got new suspension and brakes. I am no pro racer, but that car taught me a lot about cars. Porsche in particular.
So i am older and beat up more than i was. But bought a bmw 3 series last year and have enjoyed it. Its not fast, and its been out in wisconsin winter.. but i like it.
I am learning about pretty cheap boxsters and the cheaper cayman cars available... not show or race cars or pristine.. but i will love it and enjoy the ownership at least as much as anyone with any porsche.
05-27-2019, 08:12 PM
#41
I have only owned kind of low rent versions of nice cars.. an older lancia scorpion that was road raced.. nothing stock.. no air conditioning. No emissions , a fire control system and racing harness and non street tires. It was not pristine, but could reach 160 and make me smile.
A porsche 944 with ok paint and ok interior , but race tires so that pebbles stuck to the tires... it had serious brakes that cost me half as much as the car. It got new suspension and brakes. I am no pro racer, but that car taught me a lot about cars. Porsche in particular.
So i am older and beat up more than i was. But bought a bmw 3 series last year and have enjoyed it. Its not fast, and its been out in wisconsin winter.. but i like it.
I am learning about pretty cheap boxsters and the cheaper cayman cars available... not show or race cars or pristine.. but i will love it and enjoy the ownership at least as much as anyone with any porsche.
A porsche 944 with ok paint and ok interior , but race tires so that pebbles stuck to the tires... it had serious brakes that cost me half as much as the car. It got new suspension and brakes. I am no pro racer, but that car taught me a lot about cars. Porsche in particular.
So i am older and beat up more than i was. But bought a bmw 3 series last year and have enjoyed it. Its not fast, and its been out in wisconsin winter.. but i like it.
I am learning about pretty cheap boxsters and the cheaper cayman cars available... not show or race cars or pristine.. but i will love it and enjoy the ownership at least as much as anyone with any porsche.
05-27-2019, 11:00 PM
#42
Rennlist Member
Following up on the instructor and high HP. A fellow instructor told my wife she didn't like instructing anymore. Why? She relayed one story that summed it up. New car, temp tags, lousy line and nannies kicked in. She suggested her student take a different line so the nannies dont kick in. The response was something to the effect of why? Im having fun doing what I'm doing.
Do you want to ride shotgun with that person? When a few friends of mine became instructors I quietly told them to switch students with me if they felt in the slightest they were getting bullied. They didnt have to explain why, just say swap and I would say we are trying different techniques with students and later on we would ask them which works better. I'll use my open face helmet without a communicaator. They will get the message. Fortunately we didnt need to do that. But I did when I was new. I was with one of my first students, and not knowing protocol I asked a senior instructor to jump in for a session. I am pretty sure the turbo stayed in 3rd on the long straight and brakes were applied when asked. Something I got a little better at now than when I was first instructing.
If someone want to learn there are plenty of folks anxious to help. If someone wants to kill themself with a 3,000 pound explsive rocket I dont need to go along for the ride. I am perfectly capable of doing that on my own.
Do you want to ride shotgun with that person? When a few friends of mine became instructors I quietly told them to switch students with me if they felt in the slightest they were getting bullied. They didnt have to explain why, just say swap and I would say we are trying different techniques with students and later on we would ask them which works better. I'll use my open face helmet without a communicaator. They will get the message. Fortunately we didnt need to do that. But I did when I was new. I was with one of my first students, and not knowing protocol I asked a senior instructor to jump in for a session. I am pretty sure the turbo stayed in 3rd on the long straight and brakes were applied when asked. Something I got a little better at now than when I was first instructing.
If someone want to learn there are plenty of folks anxious to help. If someone wants to kill themself with a 3,000 pound explsive rocket I dont need to go along for the ride. I am perfectly capable of doing that on my own.
05-28-2019, 12:14 AM
#43
As to the car, it's not really about how fast you can go, it's more about how fast you can go fast ... and then turn.
05-28-2019, 12:26 AM
#44
Three Wheelin'
If I want a track toy,, there are way cheaper 150MPH options,,
I can buy a roller retired nascar road race car in the < 10K range,,
de-nascar it to a GT1 and with a 7500 dollar crate motor see god
when I hit the gas pedal. And if I screw up I'm out < 1000 dollars
worth of fiberglass. I've worked on race cars for years and a P car is a 2500+
dollar a day track car.
On the other hand,, driving anywhere not on the freeway in Oregon
usually involves miles of sweeping turns.. So the C4 spins the wheels just fine.
Then there are my occasional trips to Montana ,, 85 MPH with F350 trucks
passing you at 120.. Room to play...
I can buy a roller retired nascar road race car in the < 10K range,,
de-nascar it to a GT1 and with a 7500 dollar crate motor see god
when I hit the gas pedal. And if I screw up I'm out < 1000 dollars
worth of fiberglass. I've worked on race cars for years and a P car is a 2500+
dollar a day track car.
On the other hand,, driving anywhere not on the freeway in Oregon
usually involves miles of sweeping turns.. So the C4 spins the wheels just fine.
Then there are my occasional trips to Montana ,, 85 MPH with F350 trucks
passing you at 120.. Room to play...
05-28-2019, 12:23 PM
#45
Burning Brakes
I fully concur with the OP. No need for high power in the States. Just makes you lazy. The only downside is all the flying insects in Germany. Go anywhere throughout the summer and your car will get plastered in bugs. But bugs never chipped my paint.